No Faith until Salvation?

[J.D.]

Having established that not all men have faith, the question is then from where did this blind man have faith?

If he did not have it within himself by natural birth, then where did he get it? He must have received it from God.

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard [us]: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Acts 13:48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Acts 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

 

[OldRegular]

Brother Bob

No one that I know of doubts that faith is an essential aspect of Salvation. Those whom God has elected unto Salvation in Jesus Christ and has regenerated through the Holy Spirit will be given the faith by which they will consciously respond to the Gospel.

 

[Calvibaptist]

2 Thessalonians 3:1-2 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may run swiftly and be glorified, just as it is with you, 2 and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men; for not all have faith.

Here is one verse that clearly says not all have faith. Argument settled.

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Ituttut:

What do you think the woman had faith in if not Jesus Christ, that is who she went to isn't it?

Hello Brother Bob. I personally do not see Salvation of her eternal soul; only her bodily problem? She had a problem in the flesh.

That is just one example there are several and I believed she was saved and I like to know how you know she was not.

It is impossible for me to judge, but as only the body is concerned, this is to show us that the Holy Spirit has power on this earth to heal. At that time all they had to do was ask Jesus, and in Their faith, it would be done. That is not so today. Some claim such powers, and why do they fail? That is not the Holy Spirits function today.

Jesus was there filled with the Power of the Holy Ghost, and by permission of God the Father the woman was healed for they (Holy Trinity) agreed. Why? She had faith that in Jesus there was power to heal her earthly disease. She had faith as to “bodily healing and so it is”, she is healed in her faith. Can you find in His Word where Her faith saved Her Soul? Do people in their faith have the power to save their souls? Could this be what you are advocating?

I can’t see here that Jesus said “you have been reborn, and you will now go into my kingdom” by Your faith. He has not even offered it, but it was at hand, and He didn’t say I have chosen you to enter into it when it comes.

Jesus while on earth shows what will happen in the “kingdom” to come for all they have to do is ask. We today cannot do that. If it is His will it will happen, so today, we cannot just Ask. But Jesus in the Holy Ghost did what will happen in the “kingdom”. She asked in faith and He did it. But that kingdom had not come other than at that precise timeframe when Christ was on the earth to show what it will be like. He is gone, as is Pentecost, which gave us a preview of the “kingdom”. That was then, and this is now, but some day we that are in Him will ask and it will be done.

What other purpose would Jesus had in saying "thy faith hath made thee whole". In another case, the man left rejoicing and praising the name of Jesus Christ. People read things into the Scripture that is just not there.

Agree we are to understand His Word. The purpose was that the gospel of John the Baptist was being preached to God’s nation that He (Christ) had come, and His “kingdom was at hand”. Christ was doing works in the Holy Ghost that will be done in His Kingdom. Ask and it will be done. Move that mountain and it will be moved. I am sick, but I have faith in God that I will be healed, and so I ask. That is what happened here. Where ever Jesus is in the Spirit of God when He was on earth, people asked and in the Power of God Jesus forgive sins of the flesh, and healed specific issues for He is God. But nowhere will you find that Jesus says to the woman, you are now in “my kingdom”. He cannot say this for He has not yet shed His blood to cleanse this woman.

Also, the Lord said I felt "virtue" go out of me, which is cleansing power, not healing power. Man, I had a hard time getting the name right

Tradition of man, and placing into scripture our thinking does not make it so. How can His shed blood “cleanse” her since no blood has been let, other than that of animals? That forces us into the position that any blood can cleanse our sins.

The slaughter comes at the Cross, and not at any other time. He couldn’t tell this woman anymore than He could David, or any of the others, you are as you live eternally saved today, tomorrow and forever. He couldn’t say to David you are in My Body, the Body of Jesus Christ, sealed by the Holy Spirit for the Lamb has shed His blood for you. Can you see what I mean? Their sins were only covered, and this is the reason they had to “endure until the end”. David was as saved as you and I, but as you can see in His writings, he really sweated out his salvation. Not only had He not shed His blood for them, but they didn’t Even Know His Name. How are we today saved immediately and forever to be with Him, and be Like Him? Acts 16:31, ”Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, and your house.” Today Yes, but anytime before - No.

The name? I Tell U Truth Then U Tell.

Christian Faith, ituttut

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
OldRegular:
I hope you don't think that I was saying our faith is what saves us for (Salvation is of the Lord). I am saying if we don't move out on that faith and accept Christ that we will die in our sins and where He is we cannot come.

Are you saying Jesus was wrong here?

36And one of the Pharisees desired him that he would eat with him. And he went into the Pharisee's house, and sat down to meat.
37And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment,
38And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.
39Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.
40And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.
41There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
42And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
43Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.
44And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
45Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
46My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
47Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
48And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
49And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
50And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace. (Luke 7:35-50 - KJV)

How about here?

35And it came to pass, that as he was come nigh unto Jericho, a certain blind man sat by the way side begging:
36And hearing the multitude pass by, he asked what it meant.
37And they told him, that Jesus of Nazareth passeth by.
38And he cried, saying, Jesus, thou son of David, have mercy on me.
39And they which went before rebuked him, that he should hold his peace: but he cried so much the more, Thou son of David, have mercy on me.
40And Jesus stood, and commanded him to be brought unto him: and when he was come near, he asked him,
41Saying, What wilt thou that I shall do unto thee? And he said, Lord, that I may receive my sight.
42And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee. (Luke 18:35-42 - KJV)

Although I think I know where you are heading, that sure seems to say something else, here.
In His grace,.
Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

You were right in knowing where I was heading Ed.
"By Grace through faith, are ye saved.

I believe faith comes first for it says "through faith". (In other words you have to go through faith to even get to Grace.)

And I quoted the very same scriptures you did.


38 And he cried, saying, Jesus, thou son of David, have mercy on me. 42And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee. (Luke 18:35-42 - KJV)

Through faith the man cried out and through Grace he was healed and saved .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Brother Bob]

Jesus was telling the man "his faith was why he cried out and came to him. Then by the Grace of God he received Salvation." I don't think I have done a good job explaining this it seems. Saying the same thing over and over gets confusing. No one has answered the Scripture "thy faith hath saved thee".

[ March 26, 2006, 09:43 AM: Message edited by: Brother Bob ]

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
OldRegular:
You have to take heed to the low still voice within you and believe that voice.

I agree but that low still voice is the result of prior regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

I have posted the following before somewhere on this Forum but will present it again to show you what I believe occurs in Salvation.

"Salvation, A Multifaceted Gem

Salvation, the blessing of grace, is that work of the Triune God by which He eternally redeems and reconciles to Himself those chosen in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4], freeing them from bondage to sin and His holy wrath. That salvation is purchased by the blood of the Incarnate Son [Romans 5: 9; Hebrews 9: 14; 1 Peter 1: 18; 1 John 1: 7; Revelation 1: 5; Revelation 7: 14], the blood of the everlasting covenant [Matthew 26: 28; Hebrews 13: 20], and is made effective in the life of the elect by the Holy Spirit through union with Jesus Christ. Salvation from beginning to end is entirely by the Sovereign Grace of the Triune God.

Salvation is a once for all time occurrence in the life of the elect. However, as we see explicitly in Romans 8:28-30, and throughout Scripture, there are a number of events that are associated with salvation. In some of these man takes an active roll but in most of them he is entirely passive. If we consider salvation, this blessing of grace, as a multifaceted gem, we may better appreciate both the gift of salvation and the work of God, in particular God the Holy Spirit, in the salvation of those whom God the Father, before the foundation of the world, has chosen in Jesus Christ, God the Son.


1. Regeneration

The initial event in salvation is regeneration, the theological term synonymous with ‘rebirth’ or ‘being born again’. Regeneration is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit whereby those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sin are made spiritual alive and are brought into union with Jesus Christ [Ephesians 2:1-9].


2. Union with Jesus Christ

Union with Jesus Christ is an integral part, a condition, of God’s electing grace and this union is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit.


3. Effectual Calling

Insofar as man himself is aware, the initial event in salvation is the effectual calling of the Holy Spirit. It is an observable fact that not all who hear the Gospel accept it and come to salvation. The regenerate do, the unregenerate do not.


4. Conversion

Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the effectual call and turns to God in faith and repentance. Conversion is in reality an acknowledgment that one has experienced regeneration.


4a. Saving Faith

Saving faith is an essential aspect of conversion and, though exercised by man, is itself a gift of God [Ephesians 2:8,9] The prophet Habakkuk who writes [2: 4b]: the just shall live by his faith, is echoed by the Apostle Paul in that great faith chapter of the New Testament, Hebrews 11, which clearly demonstrates that faith is, in fact, a way of life.


4b. Repentance

Like faith repentance is also an essential aspect of conversion. However, the repentance associated with conversion must be proceeded by faith, that is, a person cannot truly repent of his sins against God until he believes that God is and that he has sinned against God."

 

[Helen]

OldRegular, you can be really, really sorry about doing something you know is wrong and not even acknowledge that God exists! Even athiests have consciences. They may not know they have sinned against God, but they know they have done something their consciences tell them is wrong.

Yes, faith is a way of life. We ALL live lives of faith -- it just depends upon faith in WHAT. Most people have faith in themselves or other people. Not many have faith in God.

But it is true, in order to have faith in God, you must believe He exists. And that does not take regeneration, for even the demons know He exists!

Initial faith is of the person. Further faith is a gift from God. But there is no way we can avoid the constant call of the Bible to seek God, to turn from our wicked ways and do good, to not harden our hearts, to even reason with God. All these are calls to the unsaved. To all the unsaved if you read the Bible fully. Those who do not want to change will actually find themselves changing for the worse as time goes by, for that is where sin nature leads. But those who do want to change will be summoned/called by God -- "Here I am, Seek me." Some -- maybe most -- would rather try to change themselves than give up to something or someone they cannot see and cannot control. But some do give up to Him. That is their choice. That is why their love and obedience is a precious thing -- because they chose that direction. That doesn't mean they had the power to walk it themselves, or even start on that road themselves. But they were able to want it all by themselves, in response to what they had seen and known already.

And God responds to that, leading them to Christ.

A man can't do it on his own, but he can want it on his own, and that is what the Bible is appealing to, start to finish.

 

[Brother Bob]

Hebrews, chapter 8

6": But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

"7": For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

"8": For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

"9": Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
"10": For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

"11": And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
"12": For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

"13": In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


Romans, chapter 3

"28": Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

"29": Is he the God of the Jews only ? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

"30": Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

"31": Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

 

[Me4Him]

Kids in "Sunday school" know you have to have "FAITH" in Jesus BEFORE God will save you.

And that being "saved" is the "regeneration" (Spiritual resurrection) of the "OLD MAN" that just "DIED".

Many we need the "KIDS" to teach the "adults".

 

[Brother Bob]

Revelation, chapter 3

"20": Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

"21": To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

"22": He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

It is the door of your heart that he knocks.

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Jesus was telling the man "his faith was why he cried out and came to him. Then by the Grace of God he received Salvation." I don't think I have done a good job explaining this it seems. Saying the same thing over and over gets confusing. No one has answered the Scripture "thy faith hath saved thee".

Then exactly what the heck are you asking or saying? You remarked to Old Regular, and I quote:

I hope you don't think that I was saying our faith is what saves us for (Salvation is of the Lord).

Obviously, I am not sure what you are saying, but I AM sure of what Jesus was saying. Again, I quote:

And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
49And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
50And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace. (Lk. 7:48-50 - KJV)

38And he cried, saying, Jesus, thou son of David, have mercy on me.
39And they which went before rebuked him, that he should hold his peace: but he cried so much the more, Thou son of David, have mercy on me.
40And Jesus stood, and commanded him to be brought unto him: and when he was come near, he asked him,
41Saying, What wilt thou that I shall do unto thee? And he said, Lord, that I may receive my sight.
42And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee. (Lk. 18:38-42 - KJV)

BrotherBob wrote, quoting Rev. 3:20ff.

It is [sic -, at] the door of your heart that he knocks.

Problem here is, [a.] this was addressed to a specific church, namely, the church in Laodecia, (Rev.3:14), not to any unspecified individual, especially one who is unsaved; [b.] the imagery of entering "I will will come in to him..."; eating, "...will sup with him, and he with me..."; and 'overcoming', hence 'sitting' v.21 demand more than a 'symbolic' "door of your heart"; and [c.] there is no Biblical mention anywhere of any such "door of your heart", except when one invents this idea, and 'forces this square peg of an idea' into a 'round theological hole' and calls it 'Bible'. It simply is not there, in Scripture.

Bob also writes:

Since then I have had 2 open heart surgeries and 2 neck artery surgeries and other but you get the point.

Yup, Shore do! Too well, to suit me, actually. Left carotid and quad bypasses, Nov. 2, 2005, in my case. Recuperatin' is how I found the BB, in the first place, since it was too cold to get out and I had two months of 'thumb twiddlin' to do something with.

Calvibaptist writes:

2 Thessalonians 3:1-2 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may run swiftly and be glorified, just as it is with you, 2 and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men; for not all have faith.

Here is one verse that clearly says not all have faith. Argument settled.

Uh- not so fast, there, Doctor! I believe that last clause is properly translated as "for not all have the faith.", as in the YLT, as the Greek text in all five editions I have access to, including Stephanus 1550 Edition, the Textus Receptus edition, that I believe lay behind the KJV have the definite article "`η" before 'faith' [πισ'τις].

Finally, I see AndyT. writes:

Brother Bob, I'm not sure what your point is...

and whatever writes:

I obviously still have no idea what you are getting at.

What? Are you two feeling like the Lone Ranger and Elijah, here???
'Behold, I have seven thousa...!'

In His grace,
Ed

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Kids in "Sunday school" know you have to have "FAITH" in Jesus BEFORE God will save you.

And that being "saved" is the "regeneration" (Spiritual resurrection) of the "OLD MAN" that just "DIED".

Many we need the "KIDS" to teach the "adults".

Maybe the kids in your Sunday School are wrong and need somebody besides you to teach them.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Uh- not so fast, there, Doctor! I believe that last clause is properly translated as "for not all have the faith.", as in the YLT, as the Greek text in all five editions I have access to, including Stephanus 1550 Edition, the Textus Receptus edition, that I believe lay behind the KJV have the definite article "`η" before 'faith' [πισ'τις].

There's that pesky definite article that causes so many problems when omitted...

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Calvibaptist: quote

Honestly, I don't know exactly when I came to Christ. I went to a Baptist school from 1st grade on. I have been in a good Bible-teaching church since 4th grade. I was baptized in 5th grade. I'm not really sure when I came to Christ.

But, I assume that someone told me, using the Bible, that I was a sinner and lost before I came. My response of "coming" would have been what I believe the Bible calls faith. I believe that somewhere in that process (in between hearing I was a sinner and my response) God regenerated me so that I could respond in faith. At that point I was saved (justified). I believe that not because I remember the experience, but because I see that is what the Bible teaches.

Seems to me you think you must of moved out on faith, but you are just not sure. I don't want to say anything to hurt you, but we believe a person must know he is a sinner before he can repent.

So, are you saying that because I was saved at a young age and can't remember all the details like exactly who told me I was a sinner and exactly when I came to realize that, that I am not now saved? Salvation is not a quadratic formula. It is a miracle of God.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
You were right in knowing where I was heading Ed.
"By Grace through faith, are ye saved.

I believe faith comes first for it says "through faith". (In other words you have to go through faith to even get to Grace.)

And I quoted the very same scriptures you did.


38 And he cried, saying, Jesus, thou son of David, have mercy on me. 42And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee. (Luke 18:35-42 - KJV)

Through faith the man cried out and through Grace he was healed and saved .

Actually, you have to go by grace, through faith to even get to salvation. You don't go through faith to get to grace. Grace is totally up to God.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Jesus was telling the man "his faith was why he cried out and came to him. Then by the Grace of God he received Salvation." I don't think I have done a good job explaining this it seems. Saying the same thing over and over gets confusing. No one has answered the Scripture "thy faith hath saved thee".

I answered it. The blind man was saved by faith just like everyone else who has ever been saved is saved. What is the purpose of your question?

Calvinists believe that you are saved by faith. Arminians believe that you are saved by faith. The Bible says you are saved by faith. What is the problem?

Are you guys continuing to mix up regeneration and justification? They are two different, though connected, theological and biblical concepts. Regeneration is the being born from above as described in John 3. It comes as a sovereign act of the Holy Spirit (John 3:8) through the Word (1 Peter 1:23). Justification is us being declared righteous in God's courtroom. It comes through faith (Romans 4:1-8). The two are different concepts both involved in salvation.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by EdSutton:
Uh- not so fast, there, Doctor! I believe that last clause is properly translated as "for not all have the faith.", as in the YLT, as the Greek text in all five editions I have access to, including Stephanus 1550 Edition, the Textus Receptus edition, that I believe lay behind the KJV have the definite article "`η" before 'faith' [πισ'τις].

Yeah, those crazy definite articles that are in the Greek before Theos, yet not translated "the God", but just plain old "God"

There is a definite article in front of the word faith in the following verses, yet it is not translated "the faith."

Matthew 9:2 Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you."

Matthew 9:22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, "Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well." And the woman was made well from that hour.

Matthew 9:29 Then He touched their eyes, saying, "According to your faith let it be to you."

Matthew 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, "O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
(translated "the faith" in Young's Literal Translation)

Acts 3:16 "And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

I think you get my point. You can't dogmatically say that because there is or is not a definite article in the Greek that it is or is not referring to "faith" or "the faith."

 

[Hope of Glory]

I think you get my point. You can't dogmatically say that because there is or is not a definite article in the Greek that it is or is not referring to "faith" or "the faith."

I personally think the Holy Spirit was quite capable of putting exactly what he meant. But, men, being men, thought they could "improve" or "clarify" exactly what was said much better than the Holy Spirit could.