No good works.....no Heaven?

[Iconoclast]

Thankfulness for grace will set you a-work for God rather than
a legal conscience. You will do what you do for God for love to him
rather than fear. Duties are a thank-offering rather than a sin-offer
ing, and will not look upon God's rewards as a debt, but as a further
act of his grace ; blessing God for Jesus Christ, rather than ascribing
anything to yourselves ; in short, imploring pardon for our best duties,
rather than boast of them. This is the true gospel spirit, and which
only declareth that you find a loss rather than a gain in all those
empty formal services and that external partial obedience that keep
you from Christ. Christ is precious to you that believe.
Thomas Manton....a sermon on Phil3

Are there any who are saved without fruit of the Spirit being evidenced in the life?

This is not speaking of Elect Infants and children dying in infancy, or mentally damaged persons.

This is about all others who profess faith.

 

[DHK]

Premise: No good works = no heaven.
Conclusion: No good works = Thief on the cross condemned in hell and Christ a liar.

 

[Iconoclast]

Premise: No good works = no heaven.
Conclusion: No good works = Thief on the cross condemned in hell and Christ a liar.

His good work was his open confession of Christ,that has been used by God to save many
:thumbsup:

The Spirit saved him and allowed him to make a saving confession as his good work.

The "other " thief on the cross...in hell...Christ never a Liar.:thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

Samuel Bolton said...sin debt paid for...service debt-due.

 

[convicted1]

The good works we do are to show Who we are working for. Not to gain heaven, but that God has saved our soul, and we are doing His service by witnessing to people about Him, and all His goodness.

 

[kyredneck]

Icon, what about those that don't profess faith, for whatever reason, but do genuine good works from the heart? You know, as in Ro 2:13-15.

Tell me what's wrong with this 'paraphrase':

'for not the hearers of the gospel are just before God, but the doers of the gospel shall be justified'.

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon, what about those that don't profess faith, for whatever reason, but do genuine good works from the heart? You know, as in Ro 2:13-15.

Tell me what's wrong with this 'paraphrase':

'for not the hearers of the gospel are just before God, but the doers of the gospel shall be justified'.

Those whose works are done as a result of being born of God,and who desire to please him,because they are saved will be found justified.

That is the very focus...it is not either or, but both and:

more from that sermon:

2. How this right of lordship and empire accrueth to him ? I
answer Partly by his purchase. This was that Christ aimed at in
his death : Bom. xiv. 9, ' For to this end Christ both died, and rose
again, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.'
It was the fruit and consequent of the humiliation of the Son of God.
And partly by the grant of God : Acts ii. 36, ' God hath made this
Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.' ' Made,' that
is, appointed or ordained.

3. How we come to be concerned in this lordship, or are related to
him ? I answer By our voluntary consent, acknowledging him to be
Lord, and submitting ourselves to him as the Son of God and our
sovereign : ' He is thy Lord ; worship thou him,' Ps. xlv. 11. There
is a passive subjection and voluntary submission.

So lordship and government is spoken of in-
scripture as medicinal and restorative, to reduce man to the obedience
of God that made him : Acts x. 36, ' Preaching peace by Jesus Christ,
who is Lord of all.' It is such a lordship as conduceth to make peace
between God and man, that we may enjoy his favour and live in his
obedience

Good works show His Lordship if wrought by the Spirit working in and through us

 

[Iconoclast]

Here is some more:

The duties. The notion of the Lord doth call for duty and
obedience, and it is our part to obey : Heb. v. 9, ' He became the author
of salvation to them that obey him.' Our obedience is the best testi
mony of our subjection to him. This is to be pressed, because the
carnal world is usually guilty of a double injury to Christ ; one is, that
they seem to like him as a saviour, but refuse him as a lord, whereas
Christ is not only a saviour to bless, but a lord to rule and command.
These two things must not be divided. But some catch at comforts but



30 SERMONS UPON PHIL1PPIANS III. [SEE. III.

neglect duty. Certainly a libertine, yokeless spirit is very natural to
us : Ps. xii. 4, ' Who is lord over us ? ' The world sticketh at Christ's
authority : Luke xix. 14, ' We will not have this man to rule over us.'
His laws, and restraints of repentance, faith, and- obedience are their
great burden : Ps. ii. 3, ' Let us break their bands asunder, and cast
away their cords from us.' If he will come as a saviour, he shall be
welcome ; but we cannot endure he should be chief. The greatest part
of the world is libertine, if not in opinion, yet in practice. They would
not be under command.

He might have customers more than enough
for his benefits, but they look upon self-denial, mortification, and strict
walking as harsh and severe. If we love privileges we must not decline
duties : Hosea x. 11, 'Ephraim is a heifer not taught, that loveth to
tread out the corn,' but will not break the clods. The mouth of the
ox was not to be muzzled that trod out the corn. In short, Christ is
the ' head of the church,' as well as ' the saviour of the body,' Eph.
v. 23. You must give him obedience as well as apply his benefits.
Where he is a saviour, he will be prince and lord too. Many carry
it so as if they would have Christ to redeem them, but Satan to rule
and govern them. Christ must heal their consciences, but the world
hath their affections. No ; if thou hast no care to obey him as a lord,
thy esteem of him is but imaginary, thy knowledge is but partial, thy
application of him unsound. The other injury is, that if he will accept
of an empty title, and some superficial compliments and observances,
he shall have enough of that, and be called Lord oft enough ; but there
must be a thorough subjection, to do his strict and spiritual duties :

Luke vi. 46, ' Why call ye me Lord, and do not the things which I
say ? ' It is a mockage to call him Lord and not do the things which
he hath commanded. This is disclaimed : Mat. vii. 21, ' Not every one
that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into heaven, but he that
doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.' By ' the will of my
Father ' is meant the whole duty we owe to God ; for this is not made
void by Christ, but established upon better terms.

 

[Yeshua1]

Thankfulness for grace will set you a-work for God rather than
a legal conscience. You will do what you do for God for love to him
rather than fear. Duties are a thank-offering rather than a sin-offer
ing, and will not look upon God's rewards as a debt, but as a further
act of his grace ; blessing God for Jesus Christ, rather than ascribing
anything to yourselves ; in short, imploring pardon for our best duties,
rather than boast of them. This is the true gospel spirit, and which
only declareth that you find a loss rather than a gain in all those
empty formal services and that external partial obedience that keep
you from Christ. Christ is precious to you that believe.
Thomas Manton....a sermon on Phil3

Are there any who are saved without fruit of the Spirit being evidenced in the life?

This is not speaking of Elect Infants and children dying in infancy, or mentally damaged persons.

This is about all others who profess faith.

If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
1 cor 3:14-15 esv

Seems that good works determine eternal rewards, not salvation itself!

 

[DHK]

His good work was his open confession of Christ,that has been used by God to save many
:thumbsup:

The Spirit saved him and allowed him to make a saving confession as his good work.

The "other " thief on the cross...in hell...Christ never a Liar.:thumbsup:

The thief, in his unsaved state, rebuked the other thief.
Then he looked to Jesus, and said just 8 words in English; nine in Greek

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Luke 23:42 και ελεγεν τω ιησου μνησθητι μου κυριε οταν ελθης εν τη βασιλεια σου

It was a confession of faith in Christ. If faith is a work then salvation is by works. He was putting his faith in Christ, for salvation is by faith and faith alone. There are no works here. He was a thief and that is all. He put his faith in Christ and then died.

I have a ministry in a long term care center. I have seen a feeble resident on oxygen come to know Christ as her Savior. Then she died the next die. It is doubtful that she had the opportunity nor the strength to tell anyone of Christ, to do any kind of work for Christ at all. She probably died "without works."
But who are you to judge? You set yourself up as God! Judge, Jury and Executioner?! You should be ashamed.

 

[Jedi Knight]

His good work was his open confession

So crying out for mercy is a good work? Mmmmmk.

 

[kyredneck]

The thief, in his unsaved state...

Exactly how did you come to the conclusion that he was unregenerate? Because of his capital punishment?

rebuked the other thief.

Which shows a pre-existing inclination/respect for righteousness.

It was a confession of faith in Christ.

I'd say you're right.

If faith is a work then salvation is by works.

28 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Jn 6

Is there something difficult about that passage that you can't see that faith is indeed just that?

He was putting his faith in Christ, for salvation is by faith and faith alone.

Doesn't it concern you 'sola fide' folks that the only passage to be found in the scriptures that mentions 'faith alone' is this one?:

Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2:24

 

[Iconoclast]

If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
1 cor 3:14-15 esv

Seems that good works determine eternal rewards, not salvation itself!

The judgement of believers works as to what sort they are...is not the same as someone who has no good works,and perishes.
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

The thief, in his unsaved state, rebuked the other thief.
Then he looked to Jesus, and said just 8 words in English; nine in Greek

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Luke 23:42 και ελεγεν τω ιησου μνησθητι μου κυριε οταν ελθης εν τη βασιλεια σου

It was a confession of faith in Christ.

You got some of it right DHK..what you put here I can agree with, however lets take a closer look.....

39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

THis was not a saving confession of faith,he was sceptical,and looking to escape his just condemnation...this thief died in his sins..

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

Now God has worked on this thief,he rebukes the unsaved one,directing him towards eternal things.Then he acknowledges his sin in that he said they were justly convicted and sentenced to condemnation.
He has a knowledge of Jesus as sinless, calling upon Him as Lord and Saviour.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

A man cannot call Jesus Lord except by the Spirit.

If faith is a work then salvation is by works. He was putting his faith in Christ, for salvation is by faith and faith alone

.

Salvation ...is the work of God resulting in repentance and faith which he demonstrated No one seeks God,no not one...so when someone saving comes to Jesus ...they have been drawn and taught of the Father.

There are no works here. He was a thief and that is all. He put his faith in Christ and then died.

He witnessed a saving confession to the unsaved thief,who perished ,and God has used him to give hope to many a death bed confession.

I have a ministry in a long term care center. I have seen a feeble resident on oxygen come to know Christ as her Savior. Then she died the next die.

That is great:thumbs: I am glad God will save to the uttermost those who will come to God by Jesus.....God gets the glory..all of it.

It is doubtful that she had the opportunity nor the strength to tell anyone of Christ, to do any kind of work for Christ at all. She probably died "without works."

We will leave that to God, not you to determine.

But who are you to judge? You set yourself up as God! Judge, Jury and Executioner?! You should be ashamed.

You know something DHK...you have a poor habit towards the end of your failed arguments to launch out in a personal attack.....

You say i am a legalist, setting myself up as God, believe in a gospel of works, and other such nonsense. This seems to be when your false ideas get exposed or challenged. This is not just with me...but most times that you respond on the threads.
Re-read your own posts and make the needed corrections:wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

So crying out for mercy is a good work? Mmmmmk.

Hello JK,

I think if you look at post 14...it will help a bit....God has used such good works as examples all through the gospels and Acts;
0 Therefore said they unto him, How were thine eyes opened?

11 He answered and said, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash: and I went and washed, and I received sight.


37 And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment,

38 And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.


44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.

45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.

46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.

47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

 

[DHK]

THis was not a saving confession of faith,he was sceptical,and looking to escape his just condemnation...this thief died in his sins..

Of course.

Now God has worked on this thief,he rebukes the unsaved one,directing him towards eternal things.Then he acknowledges his sin in that he said they were justly convicted and sentenced to condemnation.
He has a knowledge of Jesus as sinless, calling upon Him as Lord and Saviour.

There may have been conviction of sin here. But there is nothing in these verses indicating he called upon the name of the Lord. Not yet. He has only rebuked the other thief. He is still unsaved.

A man cannot call Jesus Lord except by the Spirit.

That verse is found in 1Cor.12:3 and you are taking it out of context. The context is the gifts of the Spirit. It has nothing to do with salvation. There are many unsaved people, like millions (even a billion) Catholics that call Jesus Christ, Lord, and are not even saved. They do it all the time. I was a Catholic for 20 years. To "say" Christ is "Lord" is no big effort. Anyone can do that. We can do that in our prayers, though our prayers may be meaningless. There are many Christians that are Christians "in name only." They call Christ "Lord" quite often, just not very sincerely. Since the verse is taken out of context the verse is not true. It rests on a false premise.

Salvation ...is the work of God resulting in repentance and faith which he demonstrated

No one seeks God,no not one...so when someone saving comes to Jesus ...they have been drawn and taught of the Father.

We both agree that salvation is a work of God.
It is man that must repent. God doesn't repent for man.
It is man that must believe. God doesn't believe for man. He commands man to believe. The most common verse in the Bible (John 3:16) is a command for man to believe.
You may like to think that no one seeks God, but that isn't totally true is it?

Let's see what the Scriptures say:
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The typical Calvinist says that man left to himself cannot come to Christ, just like you said--he will not seek God.
But he is not left to himself. Christ is come into this world for this very reason--to be a light to all men. Man is not alone.
Secondly, not only is Christ here, but the Holy Spirit has come to convict him of sin, righteousness and judgment. And that he does. The Holy Spirit has been actively doing his work. He is not inoperative.
Thirdly, Christ has promised that he will draw all men to himself. It is Christ drawing men. How can they fail not to seek him if he is drawing them to him.
Romans 3:10-18 is a statement of the fallen condition of mankind. It does not make a statement of the ability or inability of mankind to receive the gospel or to exercise faith.

He witnessed a saving confession to the unsaved thief,who perished ,and God has used him to give hope to many a death bed confession.

That his testimony is recorded in the Word is an extra bonus for us. That is not the point and not what were discussing.
He testified of Christ. It was him putting his faith in Christ. His "death bed" confession can hardly be considered a testimony for anyone else present at that time. It was between him and God; him putting his faith in Christ. This was not a great public act testifying that Christ was Lord of all.

That is great

:thumbs: I am glad God will save to the uttermost those who will come to God by Jesus.....God gets the glory..all of it.[/quotoe]
Yes, God does get the glory.

We will leave that to God, not you to determine.

As in the thief on the cross, so in many others since, there are individuals that die and pass into eternity that have no chance to show any evidence of their salvation in "works." To make this a requirement of salvation is to make salvation a "works based salvation." Not everything is as cut and dry as we would like to see it.
It is like "age of accountability." Wouldn't it be nice to simply say that at the age of ten all individuals are held accountable to God, but before that age they aren't. But that is not how it works. The age of understanding is different for every individual. Circumstances change.

You say i am a legalist, setting myself up as God, believe in a gospel of works, and other such nonsense. This seems to be when your false ideas get exposed or challenged. This is not just with me...but most times that you respond on the threads.
Re-read your own posts and make the needed corrections

:wavey:

In your system there are no "exceptions," everything must perfectly fit, even if definitions need to be changed and rules be broken. That is not how it works.
You can define "faith" as a work if you like, but the Bible does not.
The same is true with "Carnal Christian." One has to do mental gymnastics in order to deny that teaching of 1Cor.3.

 

[saturneptune]

Icon,
I basically agree with your premise, but have one question. As James says (a great book) works without faith or Christ is a ticket to hell, and I also believe that works after salvation is a natural byproduct, and a lack of works indicates that the salvation relationship never took place. I like your explanation for the thief on the cross.

This is my question. Is there an exception for the truly saved with little or no works in the verse Paul uses (sorry do not have the verse on me now) when he says, "they are saved as by fire."

 

[Crabtownboy]

Show me your works and I will show you your faith.

 

[Bluefalcon]

No good works = hell. This is elementary Christianity, boys. Just read Paul and James and most of all Jesus. Not that we're justified by works apart from faith, but the faith that justifies always has good works. Sheep and the goats, boys, the sheep and the goats.

 

[mactx]

If your Faith is true, your fruit will show.
Something as simple as smiling and lifting someone's mood is a good work.