No good works.....no Heaven?

[Iconoclast]

No good works = hell. This is elementary Christianity, boys. Just read Paul and James and most of all Jesus. Not that we're justified by works apart from faith, but the faith that justifies always has good works. Sheep and the goats, boys, the sheep and the goats.

:applause::thumbsup::applause: Well said.

from the sermon found in volume 20-
Christ is gained when we get an interest in him and his benefits,
when God hath called us to the fellowship of his Son, 1 Cor. i. 9, or,
in another place, /ieVo%ot Xpia-Tov, Heb. iii. 14, ' We are made partakers
of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the
end/ The ungodly have no part in him, but believers have. The
apostle had already won Christ, but he would more and more win,
and be more nearly conjoined to him. That I may win Christ, is



VEIL 8.] SERMONS UPON PHILIPPIANS III. 37

that I may get a larger portion in him, or more full enjoyment of
him.

 

[annsni]

Those who die shortly after salvation have not had time to do great works - but their heart change signifies a change in allegiance and this person, had they continued in life, would have done the works that God had prepared for him.

To me, works is like breathing. Breathing does not equal life but it is a sign of life. We breathe because we are alive. We can make a corpse "breathe" but that breathing is artificial and not stemming from a life inside the body. As believers, we have a new life and as such, God prepares works for us and we do them because we have an internal need to do it - not an outside need (grace in the former, law in the latter).

For example, shortly after our big blizzard, my 12 year old son and I were driving down the road and saw an elderly lady trying to shovel the ice at the bottom of her driveway. I drove by but could NOT drive any farther - so we turned around, parked the car and got out. We went to help her. I seriously would have had to fight myself to continue on my errands without stopping - the pull was so great. I ended up there for about 45 minutes speaking to this woman, helping her with her driveway and finding out what a need was that she had (she had no more ice melt and it was hard to get right now). When my son and I left, we prayed that we would be able to find ice melt at Target that we could bring and drop off to her - and guess what? There was ONE container of ice melt on the clearance rack!! So we grabbed it and I had my son run it up to her porch and just leave it next to the step. She probably knew who dropped it off but we didn't stay for accolades. We just had fun doing the "random act of kindness" and it opened doors to teach my son about the Spirit's prompting and acting on it.

So works are a sign of life - but it does not cause life.

 

[Iconoclast]

saturneptune;

This is my question. Is there an exception for the truly saved with little or no works in the verse Paul uses (sorry do not have the verse on me now) when he says, "they are saved as by fire."

This is a serious question for one who has been recently called a part of the group being [tools of Satan:laugh:]...by the "pastor of icabod baptist church:thumbsup:

No one should desire to be what many have described as a fire sale christian.

like this;

21 yourselves in the love of God keep ye, waiting for the kindness of our Lord Jesus Christ -- to life age-during;

22 and to some be kind, judging thoroughly,

23 and some in fear save ye, out of the fire snatching, hating even the coat from the flesh spotted.

22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:

23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

You and DHk and others who minister to the sick and elderly have a great opportunity and sober responsibilty to be able to minister to such persons.
Maybe some who were religious all their lives, but never really lived a holy life feeding on the word and serving the Lord.

Being saved near the end, or on the death bed itself is also to God's glory.

All sinners are terminally ill. they do not have to be in the nursing home or death bed to be close to leaving their body. Only those who are serious about working out their salvation have any scriptural grounds for assurance of salvation.

In the OP I stated this sermon was not really dealing with special cases.
all such are under God's control anyhow. there will be a full spectrum and every conceivable type of person saved.

The concern of Thomas Manton and any godly person should be complete obedience to all known commands from God's law word. Not that we could "do the minimum" in our daily life, but that we would excel by God's grace in faithful service.:thumbsup:

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire

the phrase you mentioned used here is speaking of believers who through remaining corruption, pride of life, and sinful thoughts and actions did religious works , that were not in The way of Holiness

Loss of some degree of reward , not salvation is what happens to them.We do not want to be like that;

8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

 

[Iconoclast]

Those who die shortly after salvation have not had time to do great works - but their heart change signifies a change in allegiance and this person, had they continued in life, would have done the works that God had prepared for him.

To me, works is like breathing. Breathing does not equal life but it is a sign of life. We breathe because we are alive. We can make a corpse "breathe" but that breathing is artificial and not stemming from a life inside the body. As believers, we have a new life and as such, God prepares works for us and we do them because we have an internal need to do it - not an outside need (grace in the former, law in the latter).

For example, shortly after our big blizzard, my 12 year old son and I were driving down the road and saw an elderly lady trying to shovel the ice at the bottom of her driveway. I drove by but could NOT drive any farther - so we turned around, parked the car and got out. We went to help her. I seriously would have had to fight myself to continue on my errands without stopping - the pull was so great. I ended up there for about 45 minutes speaking to this woman, helping her with her driveway and finding out what a need was that she had (she had no more ice melt and it was hard to get right now). When my son and I left, we prayed that we would be able to find ice melt at Target that we could bring and drop off to her - and guess what? There was ONE container of ice melt on the clearance rack!! So we grabbed it and I had my son run it up to her porch and just leave it next to the step. She probably knew who dropped it off but we didn't stay for accolades. We just had fun doing the "random act of kindness" and it opened doors to teach my son about the Spirit's prompting and acting on it.

So works are a sign of life - but it does not cause life.

great thought and illustration ANNSNI:applause::applause:

 

[Crabtownboy]

Those who die shortly after salvation have not had time to do great works - but their heart change signifies a change in allegiance and this person, had they continued in life, would have done the works that God had prepared for him.

To me, works is like breathing. Breathing does not equal life but it is a sign of life. We breathe because we are alive. We can make a corpse "breathe" but that breathing is artificial and not stemming from a life inside the body. As believers, we have a new life and as such, God prepares works for us and we do them because we have an internal need to do it - not an outside need (grace in the former, law in the latter).

For example, shortly after our big blizzard, my 12 year old son and I were driving down the road and saw an elderly lady trying to shovel the ice at the bottom of her driveway. I drove by but could NOT drive any farther - so we turned around, parked the car and got out. We went to help her. I seriously would have had to fight myself to continue on my errands without stopping - the pull was so great. I ended up there for about 45 minutes speaking to this woman, helping her with her driveway and finding out what a need was that she had (she had no more ice melt and it was hard to get right now). When my son and I left, we prayed that we would be able to find ice melt at Target that we could bring and drop off to her - and guess what? There was ONE container of ice melt on the clearance rack!! So we grabbed it and I had my son run it up to her porch and just leave it next to the step. She probably knew who dropped it off but we didn't stay for accolades. We just had fun doing the "random act of kindness" and it opened doors to teach my son about the Spirit's prompting and acting on it.

So works are a sign of life - but it does not cause life.

Great analogy. Do I have your permission to use it?

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

That verse is found in 1Cor.12:3 and you are taking it out of context. The context is the gifts of the Spirit. It has nothing to do with salvation.

I disagree with you here DHK[what a surprise:thumbsup:] It has everything to do with salvation.Yes the verse is used of spiritual gifts,but spiritual gifts come from.......The Spirit of God who indwells christians.

Those saved and having ...The Spirit.Romans 8:9

There are many unsaved people, like millions (even a billion) Catholics that call Jesus Christ, Lord, and are not even saved. They do it all the time. I was a Catholic for 20 years. To "say" Christ is "Lord" is no big effort. Anyone can do that. We can do that in our prayers, though our prayers may be meaningless. There are many Christians that are Christians "in name only." They call Christ "Lord" quite often, just not very sincerely.

Sadly this is very true and I am in complete agreement with you.Nominal christians are rejected in mT.7

However the verse is speaking of no man can say Jesus is Lord [savingly] with a God given faith...except by the Spirit. It is not speaking of a shallow mouthing of the words...but a heart felt confession of faith.

I am glad when I see you trying to speak truth to some of the catholics in the other denomination forum.

Since the verse is taken out of context the verse is not true. It rests on a false premise.

I do not think i am taking it out of context as I just posted.

We both agree that salvation is a work of God.
It is man that must repent. God doesn't repent for man.
It is man that must believe. God doesn't believe for man. He commands man to believe. The most common verse in the Bible (John 3:16) is a command for man to believe.

Thankfully we agree on all this.:thumbsup:

You may like to think that no one seeks God, but that isn't totally true is it?

I think it is totally true,as in total depravity:applause: men will seek vain religion, men will seek another jesus, another gospel, by another spirit,

But no one seeks God on God's terms resulting in salvation, not one. God seeks out......His sheep-

9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost

11 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out..

That is what I see the bible teaching.God seeks out the sheep, not goats...
man does not seek God....God seeks man. Jesus sought out and died for the seed of Abraham......not the seed of Adam...
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

see pt2

 

[Iconoclast]

pt2
Let's see what the Scriptures say:
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The typical Calvinist says that man left to himself cannot come to Christ, just like you said--he will not seek God.

Yes...

But he is not left to himself

.

Agreed and correct....so you grant the premise you just stated...lol

Christ is come into this world for this very reason--to be a light to all men. Man is not alone.

The scope goes from Israel to the whole world Jn3;16.....when Jesus came into the world...he did not light up all who died in the OT. That is just fictious and magical thinking, not scriptural. How was the incarnation...light...to Goliath?

Secondly, not only is Christ here, but the Holy Spirit has come to convict him of sin, righteousness and judgment. And that he does. The Holy Spirit has been actively doing his work. He is not inoperative.

Agreed...as well as the God given conscience. This is not any contention.

Thirdly, Christ has promised that he will draw all men to himself. It is Christ drawing men. How can they fail not to seek him if he is drawing them to him.

This again is dealing with the scope of what theologians refer to as the general call , different from what is spoken of as the effectual call.

Romans 3:10-18 is a statement of the fallen condition of mankind. It does not make a statement of the ability or inability of mankind to receive the gospel or to exercise faith.

I do not agree as paul from chapter 1 all the way to this point makes the point that man is totally condemned;
I find this outline by WR.Downing to be most helpful here;
A. CONDEMNATION (1:18–3:20)
Gospel righteousness absolutely needed by man and unattainable. Every approach that man might attempt is utterly cut off, for it is “by faith from start to finish.”1 Sinful humanity is found to be:
ETHICALLY Condemned. (1:18)
INTELLECTUALLY Condemned. (1:19–20)
HISTORICALLY Condemned. (1:21)
RELIGIOUSLY Condemned. (1:21–25)
MORALLY Condemned. (1:26–31)
WILLFULLY Condemned. (1:32)
RACIALLY Condemned. (2: 1–3:9)
UNIVERSALLY Condemned. (3:9–12)
TOTALLY Condemned. (3:13–18)
LEGALLY Condemned. (3:19–20)
The analysis is four–fold:
1. The Moral History of Human Depravity (1:18–32)
a) Man’s Responsibility to God (1:18–20)
(1)SinIsDeliberate (1:18)
(2)SinIsInexcusable (1:20)
b) Man’s Rejection of God (1:21–23)
(1) Sin Is Theological (1:21–23)
(2) Sin Is Judgmental (1:21–23)
c) Man’s Reprobation by God (1:24–32)
(1) Immorality and Idolatry (1: 24–25)
(2) Immorality—Homosexuality (1: 26–27)
(3) Immorality—Human Depravity (1: 28–32)
2. A Logical Essay on Human Depravity (2:1–3:9)
a) The Jew and Divine Judgment (2:1–16)
(1) The Judgment Of God Is According To Truth (2:2)
(2) The Judgment Of God Is Universal (2:3)
(3) The Judgment Of God Is Righteous (2:5)
(4) The Judgment of God is according to Works (2:6)
(5) The Judgment of God is without Respect of Persons (2:11)
(6) The Judgment of God is According to the Gospel (2:16)
b) The Jew and a Definite Revelation (2:17–29)
a)BeingaJew–ASpiritualPride (2:17)
b) Jewish Claimsto Privilege (2:17–18)
c) Jewish Claimsto Superiority (2:19–20)
c) Jewish Claims to Superiority Refuted (2:21–22)
1 ejk pivstew" eij" pivstin. ejk (gen.) denotes the source, and eij" (acc.) the extent of the action.
2
b) Jewish Claims to Privilege Refuted (2:23–24)
a) Being a Jew–A Spiritual Principle (2:25–29)
c) The Jew and a Distinct Advantage (3:1–8)
(1) The First Objection and Answer (3:1–2)
(2) The Second Objection and Answer (3:3–4)
(3) The Third Objection and Answer (3:5–8)
3. A Pictorial Anatomy of Human Depravity (3:9–18)
a) Human Depravity is Universal (3:9–12)
b) Human Depravity is Total (3:13–18)
4. The Legal Futility of Human Depravity (3:19–20)
a)TheAuthorityoftheLaw (3:19a)
b) The Jurisdiction of the Law (3:19b)
c) The Condemnation of the Law (3:20a)
d) The Purpose of the Law (3:20b


[

 

[Iconoclast]

pt3
COLOR=Red]
That his testimony is recorded in the Word is an extra bonus for us. That is not the point and not what were discussing.
He testified of Christ. It was him putting his faith in Christ. His "death bed" confession can hardly be considered a testimony for anyone else present at that time

.

His testimony was heard to the other thief and evidently the Apostles who recorded it for us.....it is heard in hundreds of sermons about it.....we know of it,so it is not a secret.

It was between him and God; him putting his faith in Christ. This was not a great public act testifying that Christ was Lord of all.

I do not agree at all...scripture says not all men have faith.....and dying an agonizing death ,to be given clarity of mind to confess Christ was of the Spirit.

That is great

:thumbs: I am glad God will save to the uttermost those who will come to God by Jesus.....God gets the glory..all of it.[/quotoe]
Yes, God does get the glory.

As in the thief on the cross, so in many others since, there are individuals that die and pass into eternity that have no chance to show any evidence of their salvation in "works."

yes,and God is the judge of all such persons...to whom much is given,much is required.

To make this a requirement of salvation is to make salvation a "works based salvation."

I do not make it a requirement in the way you state it, but i do not make it "an option" as you are suggesting??? The bible makes it what it IS....
If I error it will be on the side of holiness and caution...not licentiousness.

Not everything is as cut and dry as we would like to see it.

I agree in that we speak in generalities and across a wide range of topics,however it is crucial as many will be in hell who thought they did enough to evidence a saving interest in Jesus....but they were mistaken.

It is like "age of accountability." Wouldn't it be nice to simply say that at the age of ten all individuals are held accountable to God, but before that age they aren't. But that is not how it works. The age of understanding is different for every individual. Circumstances change.

This "age of accountability...is at conception biblically. There is no real discussion here . babies can and do die.

In your system there are no "exceptions," everything must perfectly fit, even if definitions need to be changed and rules be broken. That is not how it works.

This charge is true to some extent.Everything must fit...why would it not fit, if God says we have been given everything that pertains to life and godliness?

as far as definitions being changed and rules broken, that is a false charge brought by those who resist biblical teaching , or..who are inconsistent to the word to what ever degree.
They could be young christians, or babes ...or just plain pig headed and stubborn.
We both know about that one don't we DHK....lol.

You can define "faith" as a work if you like, but the Bible does not.
The same is true with "Carnal Christian." One has to do mental gymnastics in order to deny that teaching of 1Cor.3.

We have stated our views on this...let the reader decide.

 

[Van]

Works based religion teaches that one cannot be saved without an outward expression of faith in Christ Jesus. However, John 3:16 says whoever believes in Him shall have eternal life. So it is faith, and not the expression of faith or a changed life that saves.

But if a person is saved and enters the second phase of salvation, progressive sanctification, will he or she grow more like Christ? Yes. So when we are interviewing folks as potential members of our local assembly, we look for testimony of a changed life. But this evidence is not proof, only God knows who are His.

 

[annsni]

Great analogy. Do I have your permission to use it?

Absolutely!

 

[Van]

Works provides evidence of salvation but neither provides salvation nor proves salvation.

 

[DHK]

.

His testimony was heard to the other thief and evidently the Apostles who recorded it for us.....it is heard in hundreds of sermons about it.....we know of it,so it is not a secret

Consider this passage a bit more carefully.
It is recorded by Luke. Who was Luke? Luke was not an apostle. Where did he get his information? He did accompany Paul on his missionary journeys. He may have gotten some information from him and possibly from other apostles, but it is doubtful that he was an eyewitness to the events at the cross.
Who was at the cross? John was there. The other apostles had fled out of fear. Now in the testimony of the thief, who heard him? There is no record that anyone heard him--not even the other thief, or the Roman centurion, or anyone. Then how did this come to be recorded?

The Holy Spirit is the author of the Bible. If you look in the latter part of 1Cor.11 you can find Paul quoting the words of Jesus, word for word. He describes exactly what happened in the Upper Room, though he was never there. How does he do this? It was the Holy Spirit of God that revealed to him this information to be recorded in 1Cor.11 for our sakes. God himself is the author of the Scriptures.

Paul spent three years in Arabia before he even met with the Apostles, there being taught by God. He received direct revelation from Him in those three years. Luke was his companion in traveling. However, since Paul met with the other apostles, I am sure that Luke was there also and must have inquired diligently from them, especially John.

But it was the Holy Spirit that gave Luke that information. We have no record that what was said was even audible. They were dying. It was a painful death. It was audible enough to be heard between them both, but not necessarily to be heard all the way across to the third thief. We don't know that. Perhaps those at the base of the cross may have heard him, and perhaps they ignored what was going on. Why would some unsaved Roman soldiers be interested in the conversation between two criminals?

The only thing we know for sure is that the testimony of the thief, the record of him putting his faith in Christ, is written down in Scripture. It was put there by the Holy Spirit. It was not a great proclamation of his faith for anyone to hear. We don't know if anyone heard him at all. We can't read into scripture that which is not there. It was the Holy Spirit that told Luke what to write, and Luke accurately recorded what the Holy Spirit wanted recorded, for there is no evidence that Luke was even there.

 

[Yeshua1]

The judgement of believers works as to what sort they are...is not the same as someone who has no good works,and perishes.
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

The truth is that ALl saved prson will evidence to some degree fruit of that salvation, the problem is when we try to define what is acceptable to make it "one has been officially saved!"

You and I hold to salvation as a reformed model, would we not also agree that the salvation os of the lord, so the evidence will His work ina nd thru us also?

 

[Yeshua1]

Icon,
I basically agree with your premise, but have one question. As James says (a great book) works without faith or Christ is a ticket to hell, and I also believe that works after salvation is a natural byproduct, and a lack of works indicates that the salvation relationship never took place. I like your explanation for the thief on the cross.

This is my question. Is there an exception for the truly saved with little or no works in the verse Paul uses (sorry do not have the verse on me now) when he says, "they are saved as by fire."

The problem is that people use james to support Grace+faith +works =salvation, the biblical view of paul is that God Frelly and fully justified a sinner thru the Cross, and received that grace thru faith makes us saved!

james point is that once saved, we should somehow be acting as if a new creature in christ, so Paul speaks to intial salvation, James after getting saved!

 

[Yeshua1]

:applause::thumbsup::applause: Well said.

from the sermon found in volume 20-
Christ is gained when we get an interest in him and his benefits,
when God hath called us to the fellowship of his Son, 1 Cor. i. 9, or,
in another place, /ieVo%ot Xpia-Tov, Heb. iii. 14, ' We are made partakers
of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the
end/ The ungodly have no part in him, but believers have. The
apostle had already won Christ, but he would more and more win,
and be more nearly conjoined to him. That I may win Christ, is



VEIL 8.] SERMONS UPON PHILIPPIANS III. 37

that I may get a larger portion in him, or more full enjoyment of
him.

This is a straw man though, for the same bible teaches that if saved, the HS produces fruit in us, so all saved always have some good work!

And i also must go back to Paul stating that even if ALL works are not good in the sense of eternally rewarded, that person shall stay be saved, not lost!

Are you saying that the saint cannot rebel against God to a degree, that he cannot chose to live not as God intended, but as a saved but weak Chrsitian?

 

[Van]

Simple Math

Grace + Faith = Salvation + Works

Thus works provides evidence of salvation, but folks can do works and not be saved, i.e. the folks that were told to depart from Jesus in Matthew 7.

 

[Iconoclast]

Consider this passage a bit more carefully.
It is recorded by Luke. Who was Luke? Luke was not an apostle. Where did he get his information? He did accompany Paul on his missionary journeys. He may have gotten some information from him and possibly from other apostles, but it is doubtful that he was an eyewitness to the events at the cross.
Who was at the cross? John was there. The other apostles had fled out of fear. Now in the testimony of the thief, who heard him? There is no record that anyone heard him--not even the other thief, or the Roman centurion, or anyone. Then how did this come to be recorded?

The Holy Spirit is the author of the Bible. If you look in the latter part of 1Cor.11 you can find Paul quoting the words of Jesus, word for word. He describes exactly what happened in the Upper Room, though he was never there. How does he do this? It was the Holy Spirit of God that revealed to him this information to be recorded in 1Cor.11 for our sakes. God himself is the author of the Scriptures.

Paul spent three years in Arabia before he even met with the Apostles, there being taught by God. He received direct revelation from Him in those three years. Luke was his companion in traveling. However, since Paul met with the other apostles, I am sure that Luke was there also and must have inquired diligently from them, especially John.

But it was the Holy Spirit that gave Luke that information. We have no record that what was said was even audible. They were dying. It was a painful death. It was audible enough to be heard between them both, but not necessarily to be heard all the way across to the third thief. We don't know that. Perhaps those at the base of the cross may have heard him, and perhaps they ignored what was going on. Why would some unsaved Roman soldiers be interested in the conversation between two criminals?

The only thing we know for sure is that the testimony of the thief, the record of him putting his faith in Christ, is written down in Scripture. It was put there by the Holy Spirit. It was not a great proclamation of his faith for anyone to hear. We don't know if anyone heard him at all. We can't read into scripture that which is not there. It was the Holy Spirit that told Luke what to write, and Luke accurately recorded what the Holy Spirit wanted recorded, for there is no evidence that Luke was even there.

DHK,
Luke tells us how he wrote what he wrote, by the Spirit,in the first 4 verses of the gospel,

1 Seeing that many did take in hand to set in order a narration of the matters that have been fully assured among us,

2 as they did deliver to us, who from the beginning became eye-witnesses, and officers of the Word, --

3 it seemed good also to me, having followed from the first after all things exactly, to write to thee in order, most noble Theophilus,

4 that thou mayest know the certainty of the things wherein thou wast instructed.
:thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

Works provides evidence of salvation but neither provides salvation nor proves salvation.

:thumbs::applause::thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

Yeshua1

The truth is that ALl saved prson will evidence to some degree fruit of that salvation,

This kind of sermon raises that very issue..if someone has no fruit in the life, what reason do they have to believe they are saved at all?

the problem is when we try to define what is acceptable to make it "one has been officially saved!"

We cannot play Holy Spirit and speculate too much about others.We can sound a warning to self examination as we do not want anyone to as Hebrews speak of...fall short of His rest.

You and I hold to salvation as a reformed model, would we not also agree that the salvation os of the lord, so the evidence will His work ina nd thru us also?

Sure...salvation is of the Lord....but it is effectual and actual.:thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

Yeshua1

This is a straw man though, for the same bible teaches that if saved, the HS produces fruit in us, so all saved always have some good work!

Again...what if you see someone in your local assembly making little if no progress in service, growth,knowledge...is that Ok? Do we ignore it?Are we our brothers keeper?

And i also must go back to Paul stating that even if ALL works are not good in the sense of eternally rewarded, that person shall stay be saved, not lost!

I am not sure what verse you are thinking of with this?All works no good?

Are you saying that the saint cannot rebel against God to a degree, that he cannot chose to live not as God intended, but as a saved but weak Chrsitian?

Any saint who "rebels" ...would come under severe discipline by God.

Fact is...some who"rebel" are no saint at all.