No greater love and limited atonement

[Winman]

Reading the posts of some, I never cease to be amazed at the folks who have such a man-centered God, who does our bidding and is bound to our whims and fancies. Stunning, just stunning. Open Theism may have died in name, but the remnants and its adherents are very present.

TCassidy, I've enjoyed your posts thoroughly. You know more than just Bible versions Always good to hear from you!

Notice he didn't answer the question? Maybe you should run for politics, you are talented at evading the subject.

 

[Winman]

Then explain this verse:

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The phrase "all men" is used twice in this verse and they are the EXACT same words in the Greek.

Calvinists teach that Adam's sin nature and the condemnation for being a sinner passed onto every man. You would interpret the first "all men" to mean every single person who has ever lived except Jesus.

So, wouldn't the second "all men" teach that the free gift of justification came upon every single man who ever lived as well?

Dig out that commentary!

No, I understand this verse perfectly and it is not teaching universalism whatsoever. You will never figure it out with Calvinist doctrine. I am not going to answer you until you tell me whether "all men" in this verse is the same EXACT words with the same EXACT meaning. And please explain if it means every man who has ever lived, or just a few elect.

Oh, and while you are at it, look at this verse.

1 Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

The phrase "all men" in 1 Tim 2:3 is the exact same words in Greek as used twice in Romans 5:18

Does this mean every single man who has ever lived, or just a few elect?

And if it is God's and Jesus's will that "all men" be saved, then why aren't 100% of mankind saved?

You Calvinists love to play word games, so you should get lots of enjoyment out of figuring these verses out.

I will be going soon, but I'll check back in a day or so to see how you did. Good luck.

Just thought I would repost my questions that Tom Vols buried.

 

[TCassidy]

No, I understand this verse perfectly and it is not teaching universalism whatsoever. You will never figure it out with Calvinist doctrine. I am not going to answer you until you tell me whether "all men" in this verse is the same EXACT words with the same EXACT meaning. And please explain if it means every man who has ever lived, or just a few elect.

I am sorry you did not understand my answer. I will simplify it for you. Verse 15 says "But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many." Do you see the parallelism? If not, and you understand verse 18 to mean that all men receive justification of life then you have made the error of universalism.

However, if you understand the parallelism with verse 15 you realize that "the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many" is paralleled with "the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" you will understand. See it now? The "all men" of verse 18 is paralleled with the "many" of verse 15.

And if it is God's and Jesus's will that "all men" be saved, then why aren't 100% of mankind saved?

Exactly! If all men means all men without distinction then God is a weakling who cannot manage to get His will done! My God is not a wimp.

You Calvinists love to play word games, so you should get lots of enjoyment out of figuring these verses out.

Well, I am not a Calvinist, I am a Particular Baptist. I believe that Christ actually saved me on the cross, and didn't just make it possible for me to save myself. And it is not "play(ing) word games" it is called biblical exegesis. It is taught in all reputable bible colleges and seminaries.

I will be going soon, but I'll check back in a day or so to see how you did. Good luck.

It is not a matter of luck. It is a matter of rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[TCassidy]

TCassidy, I've enjoyed your posts thoroughly. You know more than just Bible versions Always good to hear from you!

Hello Tom. You know how us old seminary professors are. We never die, we just retire to internet forums.

 

[Winman]

The "all men" of verse 18 is paralleled with the "many" of verse 15.
Quote:

Oh, "all men" really just means "many". So in Rom 5:18 the judgment of condemnation did not come upon "all men", just "many"?

Is that what you are saying?

 

[TCassidy]

Oh, "all men" really just means "many". So in Rom 5:18 the judgment of condemnation did not come upon "all men", just "many"?

Is that what you are saying?

You can't have it both ways. If it is not a parallelism then ALL MEN ARE JUSTIFIED. And that is the damnable heresy of universalism.

 

[psalms109:31]

Trust

Romans 4:
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."[Psalm 32:1,2]

God isn't depending on men or waiting on us. We are depending on Christ and His word, by just trusting, believing in Him we will be saved. Or the other side, not and be condemned. Through the Spirit and life in the words of Christ we can just do that. After Christ is lifted up all men are drawn, but the only one who will come is those who listen and learn from the Father through the words of Jesus.

I do believe in men being dead but the word of Jesus changes that rule after He was glorified. His word gives us Spirit and life. Walking away we remain the same with no change. We are the messengers of the words of Christ.

God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy on and according to the word of God He will have mercy on those who trust in His Son.

Like it or not we are depending on God through Jesus and His word where are faith comes from, God is not depending on us.

I believe in the Elect and through this Elect, God will bring amount saved that will be like the sands of the seashore.

 

[convicted1]

Limited atonement?

I am amazed at how many times things like this get hashed, slashed, and dashed. People get mad, get their feelings hurt, etc., and yet they continue this salvo with each other about limited atonement for and against, and neither side budges one inch! Sheesh!! Now, with that being said, lemme wade in, too!! LOL

Here is a question I'd like to ask both parties(for and against) of Limited atonement?

Was EVERY SIN(past, present, and future) placed upon Jesus we He sacrificed Himself on the cross at Calvary? If you say "yes", then He made an atonement for all sins by His death, burial, and resurrection. If you say "no", then what sins weren't atoned for?

1John Ch. 2: 2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. This verse plainly states that He is THE propitiation for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.

Romans Ch. 5:6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. Again, Christ died for who? The ungodly! All have sinned and come short of the glory of God

Gal. Ch. 3: 22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Again, the scriptures have concluded all under sin, not some.

Now to my DoG Brethern, I am closer to your doctrine than you may think. Man on his own, will not/can not even begin to save himself. For that matter, mankind can't even have a thought of God with God giving that to him. Until the Holy Ghost began drawing me, I wanted things my way. But once the "drawing power" started, I had something to work with. It was up to me to respond with a "yea" or "nay".

Rev. Ch. 3:Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man will hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Looks to me like that man has something to do, doesn't it? Jesus said "I stand at the door and knock", not bust it down.

I know that most won't "eat" half what I just posted, but I tried anyways. With love!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[Robert Snow]

Sorry, but you are wrong. The word of God means what it says and says what it means. Sorry, but you are wrong again. God, in this manner, loved the world (of mankind): He gave His only begotten Son. It says what it means and means what it says.No, they are talking about the bible. That salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9). That by grace are we saved through faith, and that, NOT OF OURSELVES (Eph 2:8). And not by works of righteousness we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us (Titus 3:5). And no one can come to Christ, unless the Father who sent Him draws that person (John 6:44).

The Gospel is clear.

No part of man is good enough to merit salvation on it own.

No person meets God's perfect standard of salvation, there is nothing in man good enough to earn salvation.

Only those who come to Christ for salvation will have their sins forgiven.

No true believe will resist God's grace unto damnation.

No true believer will ever be lost.

That is the Gospel. You either accept it or reject it.

I'm not going to argue with you. I really don't care what you believe, and I'm not going to waste my time. Regardless, you think Calvinism is true to the bible, and I don't.

 

[TCassidy]

Was EVERY SIN(past, present, and future) placed upon Jesus we He sacrificed Himself on the cross at Calvary? If you say "yes", then He made an atonement for all sins by His death, burial, and resurrection. If you say "no", then what sins weren't atoned for?

Sufficient for all.

1John Ch. 2: 2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. This verse plainly states that He is THE propitiation for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.

Sufficient for all.

Romans Ch. 5:6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. Again, Christ died for who? The ungodly! All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Sufficient for all.

Gal. Ch. 3: 22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Again, the scriptures have concluded all under sin, not some.

Sufficient for all but efficient only for those who believe.

Now to my DoG Brethern, I am closer to your doctrine than you may think. Man on his own, will not/can not even begin to save himself. For that matter, mankind can't even have a thought of God with God giving that to him. Until the Holy Ghost began drawing me, I wanted things my way. But once the "drawing power" started, I had something to work with. It was up to me to respond with a "yea" or "nay".

Exactly. God took a dead spirit, that was His enemy, and drew it to Himself and made it alive and enabled it to come to Him and desire Him.

Rev. Ch. 3:Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man will hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Looks to me like that man has something to do, doesn't it? Jesus said "I stand at the door and knock", not bust it down.

I agree with the above, but the context of Revelation 3 is not soteriology.

I know that most won't "eat" half what I just posted, but I tried anyways. With love!!

Why the hate for your brothers in Christ? Why the arrogance? Why assume you know what they believe and how they will react?

 

[TCassidy]

I'm not going to argue with you. I really don't care what you believe, and I'm not going to waste my time. Regardless, you think Calvinism is true to the bible, and I don't.

Okay, you lack the capacity to offer a well thought out, cogent argument against what the bible teaches about salvation. I understand. If I could not support my position I would not continue either.

However, I do care what you believe. I care because you are my brother in Christ. I care because salvation is the most important subject any person will ever discuss. I care because getting it right brings honor and glory to God. I care because getting it wrong takes honor and glory from God and gives it to fallen, sinful, unworthy men.

I guess that is the difference between us. I care.

Have a great Lord's Day.

 

[William Price]

"We notice that if we talk about the election of men and the non-election of fallen
angels, there is not a cavil for a moment. Every man approves of Calvinism till he
feels that he is a loser by it; but when it begins to touch his own bone and his own
flesh then he kicks against it." Charles Spurgeon

"No man is ever taken to heaven against his will, though I do not believe any man
ever went there of his own free will till God’s sovereign grace enlightened him and
made him willing." Spurgeon

Either God is totally sovereign, including the realm of salvation, or He is not. I choose to say, as scripture does, that God saves whom he would, and those whom He saves are the ones Christ's blood is effective towards. I will not buy into the lie of universalism, which is what most so-called Christians believe.

 

[sag38]

Let me understand what you are saying. Are you suggesting that Christians who don't believe in the 5 points are universalists? Seems that I've read between the lines and picked up on a suggestion that the supposed logical conclusion to non-calvinism is universalism. Am I hearing this correctly too?

 

[TCassidy]

Let me understand what you are saying. Are you suggesting that Christians who don't believe in the 5 points are universalists? Seems that I've read between the lines and picked up on a suggestion that the supposed logical conclusion to non-calvinism is universalism. Am I hearing this correctly too?

I was pointing out to Winman that if he believes "all men" meant "all men everywhere without exception" then the verse in question, which says all men are justified, would have to be understood to be teaching universalism.

As to those who believe the atonement is not limited to believers then, yes, the only alternative is universalism. If the atonement is efficient for all then all will be saved.

However, if you accept limited atonement then you can see that the atonement is sufficient for all but efficient only for believers.

 

[Amy.G]

I was pointing out to Winman that if he believes "all men" meant "all men everywhere without exception" then the verse in question, which says all men are justified, would have to be understood to be teaching universalism.

As to those who believe the atonement is not limited to believers then, yes, the only alternative is universalism. If the atonement is efficient for all then all will be saved.

However, if you accept limited atonement then you can see that the atonement is sufficient for all but efficient only for believers.

The atonement is not limited, for Christ was lifted up to draw all men unto Himself. Salvation is limited to only those who have faith in Christ's atonement on their behalf.

The verse in question (Rom. 5:18) is saying that condemnation came upon the whole race through Adam, but justification also came for the whole race through Christ.

But we are only justified through faith. There must be atonement and faith in order for one to receive salvation.

OT example would be that atonement was made for all Israel, but not every single Israelite was saved. Only those who had faith were saved.

 

[John Toppass]

Let me understand what you are saying. Are you suggesting that Christians who don't believe in the 5 points are universalists? Seems that I've read between the lines and picked up on a suggestion that the supposed logical conclusion to non-calvinism is universalism. Am I hearing this correctly too?

I do not think he understands what universalism is. At least it does not sound like it.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

I have addressed the problems with the OP. You say you know what particular redemption is. You do not. If you did, you wouldn't have stated this and made it the basis of the OP: "If limited atonement is true (as defined by TULIP), Christ did not give up His life for the lost." That is plain wrong and it is a straw man. Your whole OP is based on something that is not true.

Christ died for people who otherwise would have spent eternity in hell. The people He died for were by nature children of wrath, even as others. They were enemies of God, estranged from God, and needing righteousness and reconciliation.

Christ even died for those people who will end up in hell. 2 Peter 2 tells us Christ bought the false prophet who denies Him bringing upon himself swift destruction.

 

[TCassidy]

The atonement is not limited, for Christ was lifted up to draw all men unto Himself. Salvation is limited to only those who have faith in Christ's atonement on their behalf.

If the atonement is applied to everyone then everyone is saved.

The verse in question (Rom. 5:18) is saying that condemnation came upon the whole race through Adam, but justification also came for the whole race through Christ.

Exactly my point. "All Israel" does not mean "every Israeli without exception" any more then "all men" means "every person without exception" is justified.

But we are only justified through faith. There must be atonement and faith in order for one to receive salvation.

But the verse says all men are justified. That either means all men everywhere without exception are justified or it is a parallel to verse 15.

OT example would be that atonement was made for all Israel, but not every single Israelite was saved. Only those who had faith were saved.

Exactly! "All" does not always mean "all people without exception." There is often something additional. That is what Winman does not seem to be able to understand.

 

[Amy.G]

If the atonement is applied to everyone then everyone is saved.

Leviticus 16:17 And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.

Exactly my point. "All Israel" does not mean "every Israeli without exception" ....

Yes it does. Scripture says atonement was made for ALL the congregation of Israel.

any more then "all men" means "every person without exception" is justified.

If you cut that one verse out of context, you might have a point, but comparing scripture to scripture, we KNOW that justification comes through faith. No one is just automatically justified.

 

[TCassidy]

Yes it does. Scripture says atonement was made for ALL the congregation of Israel.

Yes, that is my point. Do you believe all people of Israel, without exception, were saved?

If you cut that one verse out of context, you might have a point, but comparing scripture to scripture, we KNOW that justification comes through faith. No one is just automatically justified.

But we are not talking about justification. We are talking about the atonement. Very different things.

This is the problem you, Winman, and others seem to have. You confuse the atonement, justification, regeneration, salvation, etc. They are not all the same thing.

A careful study of a good systematic theology textbook might help you understand the distinctions.