No Man Can Come Unto Me, Except [John 6:65]

[OldRegular]

We agree, but why do you all insist God's choosing must be effectual in order make this claim?

I believe the effectual call is clearly taught in the Gospel of John.

John 6:37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

 

[Skandelon]

I believe the effectual call is clearly taught in the Gospel of John.

John 6:37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

I agree that John 6 does teach us the intended meaning of the word 'draw.' Clearly it means to 'enable,' as that is the synonym he choses in verse 65:

65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

Who hasn't been enabled? Is it ALL MANKIND from birth, as Calvinists teach or is it what Jesus taught:

"For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them." (Jn 12)​

For what reason could they not believe? BECAUSE THEY WERE BEING HARDENED!!!! They must be ENABLED to come. They must be grafted into the tree (Rm 11), like the Gentiles are... as Paul clearly explains:

For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' 28 "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"​

The Jews are being hardened, NOT ENABLED, (cut off from the tree), the Gentiles are being enabled (grafted in) and so they "will listen" and respond.

 

[freeatlast]

They don't. Scripture teaches that man is a servant of sin! A sampling:

Genesis 8:21. And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Romans 8:8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Ephesians 2:1-3
1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Mat 23:37 Free will
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!


Acts 13:48(KJV) ---Election
"And when the Gentiles heard this [the Gospel], they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."


Both are taught and both are true.

 

[Iconoclast]

Mat 23:37 Free will
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!


Acts 13:48(KJV) ---Election
"And when the Gentiles heard this [the Gospel], they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."


Both are taught and both are true.

and ye would not

Looks more like total depravity...not a "will which is free"

 

[Iconoclast]

65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

Who hasn't been enabled

Those not given by the Father....the non-elect:thumbsup:

 

[freeatlast]

Looks more like total depravity...not a "will which is free"

No, it is like the bible teaches, both.

 

[Iconoclast]

No, it is like the bible teaches, both.

There is no free will...so...no it does not.

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life

 

[freeatlast]

There is no free will...so...no it does not.

Yes according to scripture there is.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life That is free will.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes according to scripture there is.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life That is free will.

We are not going to be able to come to agreement here Fal. but thanks for responding:thumbsup: They were responsible to come,Jesus preached with love and compassion.Yet He explained ....ye will not.

Because He used the word will....you are taking it to imply that they had the ability to break free from bondage to sin,and to Satan, all on their own.John 8 explains what must take place first...

31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

 

[freeatlast]

We are not going to be able to come to agreement here Fal. but thanks for responding:thumbsup:

Your welcome. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[MorseOp]

I agree that John 6 does teach us the intended meaning of the word 'draw.' Clearly it means to 'enable,' as that is the synonym he choses in verse 65:

65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

This is an incorrect understanding of the Greek word for "granted" ("granted" NASB; "given" KJV) δίδωμι (didomi). The word does not mean to enable, it means to bestow upon, as a king would bestow honor to a subject (NAVES). It also means to grant permission. Passages where didomi is used in bestowing and granting permission: Mt. 13:11; Mk. 10:37; Lk. 1:74; 8:10; Lk. 12:51; Jn. 6:65; Ac. 2:19; 4:29; 5:31; 7:10; 7:25; 10:40; 11:18; 14:3; Rom. 15:5; Eph. 3:16; 2 Th. 3:16; 2 Ti. 1:9; et. al. The Father grants to the individual the permission to come to Christ. The same Greek word is used in John 6:37 "give." The Father not only bestows permission to the individual to come to Christ, he does the same for the Son. The Father grants to the Son those whom he grants to come to him.

 

[Iconoclast]

Your welcome. :smilewinkgrin:

We have stated our views....we are stating them from scripture....that is the best we can do.Thanks for not calling me names:laugh: We just see it a bit differently:thumbsup:

 

[freeatlast]

We have stated our views....we are stating them from scripture....that is the best we can do.Thanks for not calling me names:laugh: We just see it a bit differently:thumbsup:

We now see dimly but one day we will see clearly.

 

[Skandelon]

It also means to grant permission... The Father grants to the individual the permission to come to Christ. ... The Father grants to the Son those whom he grants to come to him.

I could not agree more. If you read my last post you would see that fits perfectly in with my explanation. God did not grant permission for the Jews to come to Christ, except for the remnant God gave to Christ to train as his apostles (and those closest to them). The rest were hardened, cut off, but the Gentiles are being grafted in and 'they will listen.'

 

[MorseOp]

I could not agree more. If you read my last post you would see that fits perfectly in with my explanation. God did not grant permission for the Jews to come to Christ, except for the remnant God gave to Christ to train as his apostles (and those closest to them). The rest were hardened, cut off, but the Gentiles are being grafted in and 'they will listen.'

Skan, where I think we disagree is in the efficacy of the Father "granting."

 

[freeatlast]

I could not agree more. If you read my last post you would see that fits perfectly in with my explanation. God did not grant permission for the Jews to come to Christ, except for the remnant God gave to Christ to train as his apostles (and those closest to them). The rest were hardened, cut off, but the Gentiles are being grafted in and 'they will listen.'

Rev 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

All have been granted to come and some will freely choose to accept.

 

[Skandelon]

Skan, where I think we disagree is in the efficacy of the Father "granting."

Yes.

I believe God grants someone entrance by sending an invitation (i.e. wedding banquet analogy). In other words, the powerful gospel appeal is the enabling work of the Spirit. "The gospel is the power of God unto Salvation."

The problem is that when John 6 is happening the Jews are being blinded from the gospel truth (hardened), and only few chosen messengers are being granted these truths at that time. Jesus is speaking in parables to keep the Jews from repenting, but he is explaining the truth to his apostles. Why? To ensure his crucifixion and to allow room for the ingrafting of the Gentiles (Rm 11). After he is lifted up he sends the gospel to everyone, thus drawing all men to himself (Jn 12:32)

 

[Skandelon]

Rev 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

All have been granted to come and some will freely choose to accept.

:thumbsup:

Correct. This WAS NOT the case at the time of John 6, however. At that time it wasn't granted to Israel to come as they were being blinded. Israel was being cut off while the Gentiles being grafted in.

 

[OldRegular]

Rev 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

All have been granted to come and some will freely choose to accept.

The "whosoever will" are only the elect who are given the ability to respond by God!

 

[OldRegular]

:thumbsup:

Correct. This WAS NOT the case at the time of John 6, however. At that time it wasn't granted to Israel to come as they were being blinded. Israel was being cut off while the Gentiles being grafted in.

The Gospels were written for all time not just for Israel during the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ. I would also note that not all Israel was hardened.