No man perishes for want of an atonement

[Skandelon]

I have no interest in this subject matter as Im content in my beliefs.

Then don't bring it up.

 

[Iconoclast]

Hello convicted1

You said.......


This is a common mistake, reformed Christians make.
The “atonement”, indeed “saved” those who accepted it.
(Every Jew, who followed Moses’s instructions in Egypt, who ended up putting the lambs blood on there door posts, were SAVED!)
Then they came into the wilderness, where the first generation died, because of unbelief.

Those that died, did not lose there SALVATION, they were simply chastened to death, because of their unbelief.
In the same way today, New Testament Christians, can be chastened to death, yet go to heaven........
1 Corinthians 3:15
“If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”
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Entering into the Promised Land, was not done for their salvation; But was a reward for their faithfulness.

Here is what the Bible says about it.........
Hebrews 3:7-11
V.7 ¶ Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
V.8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
V.9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
V.10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in [their] heart; and they have not known my ways.
V.11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

and

Hebrews 3:17-19 & 4:1-3
V.17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? [was it] not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
V.18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
V.19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
V.1 ¶ Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
V.2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].
V.3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

and

Hebrews 4:11
“Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.”
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Salvation is by Grace through faith. It is not something that we “labor” for!

But we do labor, to be faithful Christians and be blessed and rewarded by the Lord!

These unbelievers went to hell.....they did not enter His rest

 

[Tom Butler]

Bro. Skan, I keep thinking back to the OT and how that the sacrificial lamb, or whatever they used for the atonement of all of Israel, was for that, all of Israel.

For Gentiles, too?

 

[JesusFan]

Here is a quote from Charles Hodge in his systematic theology:



In many other threads here on the BB it appears that most Calvinists would differ on this point as it has been argued that those who die in unbelief don't perish for their unbelief alone, but because their sin was not atoned.

What do you think? Do you disagree with Hodge on this point?

same as always have, as did Hodge and calvin...

that God indeed had in death of Christ paid the Sin penalty for ALL PEOPLE entire Human race, but that it is ONLY effectual towards those whom God decided to Elect and chose to Eternal life in Christ!

 

[stilllearning]

These unbelievers went to hell.....they did not enter His rest

I posted Scripture to support my view(& there’s lots more):

Can you show “any” Scripture, to support your’s?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

He did all that was necessary, so far as a satisfaction to justice is concerned, all that is required for the salvation of all men. So that all Augustinians can join with the Synod of Dort in saying, "No man perishes for want of an atonement."

I don't know why you would think that any of us Reformed folk would take issue with this statement. Do you suppose that we imagine some poor fellow repenting and believing in Christ only to have St. Peter tell him, "I'm sorry! You can't come into heaven. Christ's blood doesn't quite stretch far enough to save you!" Absolutely not! Every single person who turns from his sin and trusts in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation will be saved.

But the reason he will be saved is that God the Father set His love upon him from all eternity, sent the Son to be the propitiation of his sins, and sent the Spirit to convict him of sin and draw him to Christ.

I know I've posted this before, but some people just don't seem to get it.

'All that the Father gives Me will come to Me......' There is your Particular Redemption. The Father has given a people to the Son, and they will be saved, by grace through faith. '....And the one who comes to Me I will by no means turn away.' There is the promise; everyone without exception who comes sincerely to Christ in repentance and faith will not be turned away. 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.' If we would have a proper theology, we must hold both parts of John 6:37. That is exactly what Hodge in doing in the quotation you gave.

Steve

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I don't know why you would think that any of us Reformed folk would take issue with this statement. Do you suppose that we imagine some poor fellow repenting and believing in Christ only to have St. Peter tell him, "I'm sorry! You can't come into heaven. Christ's blood doesn't quite stretch far enough to save you!" Absolutely not! Every single person who turns from his sin and trusts in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation will be saved.

YES INDEED! The man who wants salvation already HAS it. The man who hungers and thirsts (desires it) after righteousness is a blessed character (Matt. 5: 2-6). :love2:

 

[JesusFan]

YES INDEED! The man who wants salvation already HAS it. The man who hungers and thirsts (desires it) after righteousness is a blessed character (Matt. 5: 2-6). :love2:

think that our faith in jesus and salvation is the confirming proof that we WERE the Elect of God!

Heard Gospel placed faith in jesus received salvation and born again proves that our election from/of God is sure!

 

[Skandelon]

I don't know why you would think that any of us Reformed folk would take issue with this statement.

Those of you who affirm that God did provide atonement for even the non-elect shouldn't have a problem with it, but clearly some "reformed" posters here don't hold to that view and yet they ridicule those of us who argue this point while many scholars from their own "camp" have historically supported it. If nothing else, reading this from a respected scholar might help them to see this is a viable point of contention and worthy of reexamination on their part.

Do you suppose that we imagine some poor fellow repenting and believing in Christ only to have St. Peter tell him, "I'm sorry! You can't come into heaven. Christ's blood doesn't quite stretch far enough to save you!"

No, that would be silly. That was not the point I was making.

But the reason he will be saved is that God the Father set His love upon him from all eternity, sent the Son to be the propitiation of his sins, and sent the Spirit to convict him of sin and draw him to Christ.

But this post wasn't concerning the matter of unconditional election or irresistible calling. It was specifically about the issue regarding limited atonement and whether or not the elect were provided atonement.

 

[JesusFan]

Those of you who affirm that God did provide atonement for even the non-elect shouldn't have a problem with it, but clearly some "reformed" posters here don't hold to that view and yet they ridicule those of us who argue this point while many scholars from their own "camp" have historically supported it. If nothing else, reading this from a respected scholar might help them to see this is a viable point of contention and worthy of reexamination on their part.

No, that would be silly. That was not the point I was making.

But this post wasn't concerning the matter of unconditional election or irresistible calling. It was specifically about the issue regarding limited atonement and whether or not the elect were provided atonement.

Do you have in mind someone like DR RC Sproul who holds that 5 point Calviinism is "consistent" with the scriptures?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Do you have in mind someone like DR RC Sproul who holds that 5 point Calviinism is "consistent" with the scriptures?

JF ....I think he is trying to differentiate between Supralapsarianism & Infralapsarianism which are both subsystems in the Calvinistic umbrella. BTW are you familiar with these subsets?

 

[JesusFan]

JF ....I think he is trying to differentiate between Supralapsarianism & Infralapsarianism which are both subsystems in the Calvinistic umbrella. BTW are you familiar with these subsets?

general terminology here...

Does 1 side hold that God directly determined/caused/decreed the fall of satan/Adam/Sin death etc

other that God allowed them and decreed what he would do as a result of them happening?

 

[Allan]

For Gentiles, too?

Yep.. if they chose to come under the Jewish religious system. They were not left out but welcome
God was working through the Jewish system He set up to reach the 'world' not JUST the Jews. But since God was working through the Jewish religious system He set up they had to willing come under that system of belief and submit to it's teachings.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Those of you who affirm that God did provide atonement for even the non-elect shouldn't have a problem with it, but clearly some "reformed" posters here don't hold to that view and yet they ridicule those of us who argue this point while many scholars from their own "camp" have historically supported it. If nothing else, reading this from a respected scholar might help them to see this is a viable point of contention and worthy of reexamination on their part.

I certainly do notaffirm that God has provided atonement for the non-elect, and nor did Hodge. If you think that, then you are reading him absolutely wrong. No one for whom Christ shed His blood will fail to appear in heaven.

Read my post again, and read Hodge. No man perishes for want of an atonement because atonement is made for all who will come to Christ (John 6:37; 44).

Steve

Steve

 

[Iconoclast]

I posted Scripture to support my view(& there’s lots more):

Can you show “any” Scripture, to support your’s?

Yes.....I will use the scriptures you used from hebrews.....
When they say they did not enter into His rest...that is saivation rest....

we know that because of this;

Psalm 78

1Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.

2I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

3Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us.

4We will not hide them from their children, shewing to the generation to come the praises of the LORD, and his strength, and his wonderful works that he hath done.

5For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children:

6That the generation to come might know them, even the children which should be born; who should arise and declare them to their children:

7That they might set their hope in God, and not forget the works of God, but keep his commandments:

8And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation that set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not stedfast with God.
9The children of Ephraim, being armed, and carrying bows, turned back in the day of battle.
10They kept not the covenant of God, and refused to walk in his law;

11And forgat his works, and his wonders that he had shewed them.

12Marvellous things did he in the sight of their fathers, in the land of Egypt, in the field of Zoan.

13He divided the sea, and caused them to pass through; and he made the waters to stand as an heap.

14In the daytime also he led them with a cloud, and all the night with a light of fire.

15He clave the rocks in the wilderness, and gave them drink as out of the great depths.

16He brought streams also out of the rock, and caused waters to run down like rivers.

17And they sinned yet more against him by provoking the most High in the wilderness.

18And they tempted God in their heart by asking meat for their lust.

19Yea, they spake against God; they said, Can God furnish a table in the wilderness?

20Behold, he smote the rock, that the waters gushed out, and the streams overflowed; can he give bread also? can he provide flesh for his people?

21Therefore the LORD heard this, and was wroth: so a fire was kindled against Jacob, and anger also came up against Israel;

22Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation: 23Though he had commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven,

24And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven.

25Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full.

26He caused an east wind to blow in the heaven: and by his power he brought in the south wind.

27He rained flesh also upon them as dust, and feathered fowls like as the sand of the sea:

28And he let it fall in the midst of their camp, round about their habitations.

29So they did eat, and were well filled: for he gave them their own desire;

30They were not estranged from their lust. But while their meat was yet in their mouths,

31The wrath of God came upon them, and slew the fattest of them, and smote down the chosen men of Israel.

32For all this they sinned still, and believed not for his wondrous works.

33Therefore their days did he consume in vanity, and their years in trouble.

34When he slew them, then they sought him: and they returned and enquired early after God.

35And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.

36Nevertheless they did flatter him with their mouth, and they lied unto him with their tongues.

37For their heart was not right with him, neither were they stedfast in his covenant.

38But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath.

39For he remembered that they were but flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again.

40How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, and grieve him in the desert!

41Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.

42They remembered not his hand, nor the day when he delivered them from the enemy.

43How he had wrought his signs in Egypt, and his wonders in the field of Zoan.

44And had turned their rivers into blood; and their floods, that they could not drink.

45He sent divers sorts of flies among them, which devoured them; and frogs, which destroyed them.

46He gave also their increase unto the caterpiller, and their labour unto the locust.

47He destroyed their vines with hail, and their sycomore trees with frost.

48He gave up their cattle also to the hail, and their flocks to hot thunderbolts.

49He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.

50He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence;

51And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham:

52But made his own people to go forth like sheep, and guided them in the wilderness like a flock.

53And he led them on safely, so that they feared not: but the sea overwhelmed their enemies.

54And he brought them to the border of his sanctuary, even to this mountain, which his right hand had purchased.

55He cast out the heathen also before them, and divided them an inheritance by line, and made the tribes of Israel to dwell in their tents.

56Yet they tempted and provoked the most high God, and kept not his testimonies:

57But turned back, and dealt unfaithfully like their fathers: they were turned aside like a deceitful bow.

58For they provoked him to anger with their high places, and moved him to jealousy with their graven images.

59When God heard this, he was wroth, and greatly abhorred Israel:

60So that he forsook the tabernacle of Shiloh, the tent which he placed among men;

61And delivered his strength into captivity, and his glory into the enemy's hand.

62He gave his people over also unto the sword; and was wroth with his inheritance.

63The fire consumed their young men; and their maidens were not given to marriage.

64Their priests fell by the sword; and their widows made no lamentation.

65Then the LORD awaked as one out of sleep, and like a mighty man that shouteth by reason of wine.

66And he smote his enemies in the hinder parts: he put them to a perpetual reproach.

67Moreover he refused the tabernacle of Joseph, and chose not the tribe of Ephraim:

68But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved.

69And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever.

70He chose David also his servant, and took him from the sheepfolds:

71From following the ewes great with young he brought him to feed Jacob his people, and Israel his inheritance.

72So he fed them according to the integrity of his heart; and guided them by the skilfulness of his hands.

There is a sin unto death..for disobedient christians....but the mixed multitude perish.

 

[preacher4truth]

I certainly do notaffirm that God has provided atonement for the non-elect, and nor did Hodge. If you think that, then you are reading him absolutely wrong. No one for whom Christ shed His blood will fail to appear in heaven.

Read my post again, and read Hodge. No man perishes for want of an atonement because atonement is made for all who will come to Christ (John 6:37; 44).

Steve

Steve

:thumbsup:

Some of us have made attempt to point out, that yet again, skan thinking he found an "aha!" on Calvinists has actually not understood what he has posted, nor does he understand that there are none saved who are not elect.

Are any of the saved non-elect? Not one, all of them are elect.

 

[quantumfaith]

Yep.. if they chose to come under the Jewish religious system. They were not left out but welcome
God was working through the Jewish system He set up to reach the 'world' not JUST the Jews. But since God was working through the Jewish religious system He set up they had to willing come under that system of belief and submit to it's teachings.

Yes Allan, you are so correct. A huge point and purpose of Israel's election and function in the world was for the nation to be missional.

 

[stilllearning]

Yes.....I will use the scriptures you used from hebrews.....
When they say they did not enter into His rest...that is saivation rest....

we know that because of this;


There is a sin unto death..for disobedient christians....but the mixed multitude perish.

Thanks for the Scripture Iconoclast.

And before I address it, lets settle this question about what “God’s rest” really is.
At the end of the passage in Hebrews that talks about God’s rest, it concludes with this instruction........
Hebrews 4:11
“Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.”

This is an instruction to Christians, to totally commit their lives to Christ, so that they can enter in to this rest.
If indeed God’s rest were salvation; The Bible would not be telling us to labor, to gain it.

There is something that Christians are to labor for; And that is, a closer walk with the Lord.
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Now I can see your point, in the way that Psalms 78:, talks about that first generation of God’s people. And I fully agree; they were not worthy of God’s mercy.

And when you talk about the “mixed multitude”, what you are saying is that mixed in with “God’s people", were some unsaved folks. (I can also agree with that.)
-------------------
But what I believe the Bible teaches, is that “when your saved”, it does not matter about your sin or your unbelief; You are still saved.

Here is what another passage is Psalms has to say but this.........
Psalms 89:28-37
V.28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
V.29 His seed also will I make [to endure] for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
V.30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
V.31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
V.32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
V.33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
V.34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
V.35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
V.36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
V.37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and [as] a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
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The first generation Children of Israel: The ones who actually participated in the original Passover, were God’s people.

And even though when they got out in the wilderness, they were rebellious and God had to allow them to die before crossing over into the promise land; They were still God’s people.

 

[Skandelon]

I certainly do notaffirm that God has provided atonement for the non-elect, and nor did Hodge. If you think that, then you are reading him absolutely wrong. No one for whom Christ shed His blood will fail to appear in heaven.

Read my post again, and read Hodge. No man perishes for want of an atonement because atonement is made for all who will come to Christ (John 6:37; 44).

Steve

Do you affirm Hodges statement, "He did all that was necessary, so far as a satisfaction to justice is concerned, all that is required for the salvation of all men."

Or do you take "all men" to mean "all elect men?"

BTW, I'm not arguing that Hodge holds to an Arminian view of the atonement. He is clearly a Calvinist. I'm simply pointing out the distinction he clearly draws regarding God's doing "all that was necessary, so far as a satisfaction to justice" for even those who end up not believing, so that their perishing is not from a "lack of atonement," but for unbelief. And his clear teaching regarding Christ's work of substitution: "... all mankind were placed under the same constitution or covenant. What was demanded for the salvation of one was demanded for the salvation of all. Every man is required to satisfy the demands of the law...If those demands are satisfied by a representative or substitute, his work is equally available for all." For this view I have been ridiculed and demeaned by several Calvinists repeatedly on this board.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

general terminology here...

Does 1 side hold that God directly determined/caused/decreed the fall of satan/Adam/Sin death etc

other that God allowed them and decreed what he would do as a result of them happening?

Here is a chart that might give you a better picture the way its laid out. Note the Presbyterians are much more fine tuned to this then are Baptists in most cases.

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/sup_infr.htm