No Middle Ground

I will simply reply but my "tagline" below...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

"…Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism which saves you now…"

1 Peter 3:20-21

 

It is apparent from the implication of some of the posts in this thread that there are those who do not believe that the Bible can be interpreted correctly by individuals.

Jesus many times teaches us we can and must know what is true and what is false by using our minds.
Jesus said in John 8:31,32,¶Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32  And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

In Luke 10:25- 28,¶And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26  He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27  And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28  And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. Note: Jesus ssaid he got iy right. How? he simply applied the meanings of the simple words of the text. He read.

Now, for the modernist attitude of today which is as old as man himself, note what he says to Jesus in verse 29. But he, willing to JUSTIFY himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
This is much the same logic of those today who cannot or do not want to use the simple text of scripture as their authority.

Ask another question. Maybe he will get it wrong and it will justify my false understanding or practice, though I really know what it says. Jesus goes on to tell the account of the good Samaritan. I dare say Jesus' answer satisfied the self-righteous querist.

In Mat. 22: 41-46 ,  ¶While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42  Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
43  He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44  The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45  If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46  And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

Every individual is personally responsible for his life in Christ or outside Christ. This includes getting the scripture right. in the day of judgement, their will be no council, synod, convention, or magisterium to defend us. Our acquiittal will be based on what we have done. II Cor. 5:10. it will be of no comfort to end up in torment saying well the council,synod or magisterium said this is what the scriptures meant. There will be no church authority to represent us and to make out case before God. It will be the Almighty and us. It will be of no consequence as to what we believed based on their interpretation. The only interpretation that will get us to heaven is the one where we get it right and live by what is true. Jesus must say to us, THOU HAST ANSWERED RIGHT!!!

 

In regards to Dr. Bob's statements regarding the aquisition of eternal life by "faith alone" (is that a correct statement, sir?) I would like to ask him and all others who share this idea to dissect the following verses for us:

Ro 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

I would ask you to comment on each verse please rather than do a "drive by exegesis". It is my contention that these verses, along with John 5: 28 - 29 teach rather clearly that those who "do well" shall inherit eternal life.

Your comments, s'il vous plais.

Cordially in Christ through the Blessed Theotokos,

Brother Ed

 

Second post -- please keep separate from the other one.

IF the acquisition of eternal life is by "grace alone through faith alone", then doesn't that really mean that the only ones who actually have this concept correctly spelled out are the Calvinists?

After all, if God gives you salvation because you have "made a decision for Jesus" "accepted Jesus" or "walked the sawdust trail" (or whatever else you may call it), is not that a response from God to something which you have done which elicits a response from God?.

How is that any different from being baptized? Both are something which requires an act of the will by someone.

Calvinist soteriology, as I heard it taught, teaches that God gives to the "sin dead soul" a new life, many times without that soul even knowing that it has been "born again." This unknowing regeneration begets in that soul a deep restlessness. Those things which were once the sweetest of sins lose their flavor. Concern for eternal things sets in. The Bible becomes interesting to read. Many begin, for reasons they cannot pinpoint, to go to church, trying to find out why they have suddenly become so restless.

And in a moment, maybe during a sermon, maybe by reading a Bible verse or good Christian literature, the soul is suddenly enlightened, and sets upon its pilgrimage to follow and obey Christ as Lord and Savior. But this has nothing to do with anything the sinner has done...it is merely a response of the soul which has been mysteriously made alive by the sovereign work of God apart from ANYTHING the sinner has said or done.

So a Baptist, unless he is a Reformed Baptist, appealing to "grace alone by faith alone", seriously doesn't understand what he is saying if he believes in "making a decision for Christ".

It is STILL A WORK!!!

Cordially in Christ through the Blessed Theotokos,


Brother Ed

 

Bro. Ed.

I think that many of the "Calvinist" types here will accuse you of spelling out a "hyper-calvinistic" theology. However, you are exactly correct in your reasoning, and I admit fully to believing it. I am a Primitive Baptist and we are commonly called hyper-calvinists, though we ourselves reject the term, and reject the appellation Calvinists as well.

Thanks for the post, finally someone on this board who understands it, even if you may or may not accept it as true.

I suspect that we Primitive Baptists are as misunderstood by mainstream Baptists as Catholics are.

 

And Lutherans. After the original reforming groups, many sects formed that returned to works righteousness of one sort or another.

 

Just curious; was my original post in this thread ignored, overlooked, or just too unsuitable for arguing? I'm more interested in the original question than the personal attacks. Here it is again, just in case someone wants to tear it up.

Perhaps the middle ground is in these words I have added here after your statement: "...through (or 'by') faith alone" - an active and living Christ-centered faith of the heart, which is normally evidenced by the joyful and worshipful partaking in the sacraments and ordinances of Christ, and in all ways living His commandments to love God and love each other.

Please note that my use of the word "heart" is intended as a Biblical meaning, not some "mushy-gushy" modern American meaning (of course this statement itself could start another thread!)

Wish I had time to write more, but it seems that the difference is in focus of how people live their faith. </font>[/QUOTE]

 

You started an interesting, but predictable, thread, Dr. Bob. I thought I would add my own obviously opinionated comments…

The first response was from Tuor, who asked, “Do you believe that those who practice immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these can go to heaven?”

No, Tuor, of course not. But those who are born again have the mind of Christ, and they have no desire to do such things. Those who do such things are showing very clearly that they lives have NOT been transformed by Christ. So your questions really does not have to do with what Dr. Bob asked. The Bible says salvation is by grace through faith. That is clear. You are talking about someone not saved, not how a person becomes saved.

Brother Adam, I can see why you describe yourself as wavering. You do not understand about salvation. It is not simply praying. It is submitting to your own death at the hand of God. It is being killed as the old you and being born again as a new you. This only is possible through God’s grace, and not through anything any man can do. And once you are truly born again, with a new heart that longs for God and hungers for His Word, you cannot be unborn-again! That new life is for keeps and, as Philippians 1:6 reminds, God is faithful to finish the good work He has begun in us. It is His faithfulness that keeps us safe – nothing we stupid, wandering sheep can do!

Adam, you wrote, of Catholics: “ They do believe though that God looks favorably on the Christian who is baptized, takes communion, and participates in the sacraments. ” But if you read Isaiah 64:6 and Romans 8:8, I think you will find God says differently. You said your philosophy teacher was a minister for over 20 years and is not anti-Christian. He was never born in the spirit. If you are in the same position, as you seem to indicate you are, then you are not born again either. And this is what is missing in your life and what you don’t understand about. Christ gives an entirely new heart and mind – we are no longer the same. And there is no possibility of ever being the same again, for, as Paul says in Romans 6, we have been crucified with Him. And the only way back to life is in and through Him. So if someone says they were Christian and now have turned away from that, then they were not born again. It’s that simple. When you have a heart that longs for God, which is His gift to us, then you cannot walk away. Wander away sometimes, yes, out of our own idiocies, but that is when He has promised to leave the 99 and come looking and get us! We are perfectly safe with Him. Once you are His, you are His. Period. And when you are His, you know it. You know His voice, you know His Word, and your love and desire for Him grow daily. There is no way you cannot know you are saved!

Frank, yes, I agree with you. We have the choice regarding acceptance or rejection of that incredible offer of a new life. It is not forced on anyone. Anyone who chooses to believe will be led by the Father to the Son. And those are the ones who are given that new and wonderful life in Him.

BrianT, I think you will find Ephesians 2 has something to say about grace through faith without works. And if you put Romans 8:8 and 8:9 together (as they do go together), and think about what Paul is saying, you will realize that there is no way works are going to amount to a hill of beans with God until a man is already saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit!

Brother Curtis: bingo.

Tragic pizza, there is nothing we can do to keep our salvation. As I quoted before, Philippians 1:6 says God is faithful to complete the good work He has begun in us. Romans 8:28-30 indicate that there is an inexorable, predestined process each believer is brought through. We cannot fail simply because it is not we who are doing the work in us: God is. He doesn’t fail. If you are His, He takes the responsibility for bringing you up right!

Trying2understand: Curtis was not interpreting the Bible. He was believing what it says quite straightforwardly. There is a giant difference! If it was an interpretation, of course he could be in error. But he is interpreting nothing. He is believing what the Bible says quite simply and clearly. You can be sure you are saved, to answer your question, because you are such an entirely different person once you have been born again in the Spirit. There is simply no doubt about what has happened!

Dan Stiles, how we live our faith is our testimony to the world. It does not have to do with earning or keeping our salvation. Or maybe I misunderstood you?

W.Putnam, you don’t need a dove on your shoulder. You need the Holy Spirit in your heart. The first chapter of James says we can pray for wisdom. It says God is not sparing. In other words, that prayer is answered generously with a yes. And wisdom from God in understanding His Word is far more accurate than anything any earthly authority might say.

Frank, I may have misunderstood your post, too, but it is not what we do or say that will ‘earn’ us heaven. It has been earned for us by Christ. What counts is if we are IN Him and He IN us. What we do and say will be the result of that. But they are not the ‘ticket’ in. It is only through Him and in Him. When the Father looks at a person, He will either see His Son or not. That’s it as far as salvation goes. Rewards are a different matter. But salvation is Christ and only Christ.

Catholic Convert, it is wise to let Bible explain Bible, is it not? If you read the end of Psalm 1, you will find that those who walk in the way of the unrighteous (and all righteousness is of Christ and Christ alone) will not stand in the judgment. Therefore, the verses in Romans 2 are talking about the rewards for those who do stand in the judgment, or those who are saved. There are rewards to be earned. Salvation, however, is a gift.

Regarding John 5:28-29, please reference Isaiah 64:6, among other verses. Nothing done outside of Christ is good in God’s eyes. Romans 8:8. Therefore when those who have done good rise to live, it is because what they did was Christ working through them. All good is from God. No one can do good in God’s eyes unless they are already saved and of His family. That is stated a number of times in various ways in both the Old and New Testaments. Therefore Jesus’ words in John 5 are simply explaining a little more about that. It is extremely unwise to take a few Bible verses and build a doctrine around them. It is much wiser to read the entire Bible, praying for wisdom as we are told to do, and allow the Bible to explain itself. God is faithful to do that. He doesn’t need man’s help!

Then you asked about the idea of accepting God’s gift being ‘something which you have done which elicits a response from God.’ Sure it is. Love is a two-way street! And we are to love God. But acceptance is not a ‘work.’ It is accepting HIS work for us! Does God respond to us? The entire Bible is about God responding to us!

It is different from being baptized, because baptism is actually something you do physically which some may not be capable of doing. Baptism is an obedience, a testimony. Romans 8:8 indicates that nothing an unsaved person does can please God. Romans 8:9 indicates that all saved people are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. So you can’t be baptized before you are saved to please God. And you can’t be baptized after you are saved to get saved! Baptism is to honor God once you are His. All you can do before that is believe and submit. He does everything. I’m not a Calvinist, by the way…
For my reaction to Calvinism, here: http://www.setterfield.org/calvinism.htm

 

Baptism is pure gospel, the forgiveness of sins. When Baptists turn the gospel into law, they are trusting in their own human work of baptism rather than Christ alone. How can they be said to believe in justification by faith alone?

 

Helen, you are right!

For the holy Spirit is in the CHURCH that I cling to, as established by Christ with great authority per Matthew 16:18-19

You are also right about another thing, too:

I need the holy Spirit in my heart always! Unfortunately, I may, by my own stubborness, weakness and disobedience, kick Him out!

I fall far short of the glory of God, Helen, so please pray for me, a sinner...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christ has no body now but yours;
No hands, no feet on earth but yours,
Yours are the eyes with which he looks
Compassion on this world.
Yours are the feet with which he walks to do good.
Yours are the hands with which
he blesses all the world.
Christ has no body now on earth but yours.

- St. Therese of Avila -

 

Not only are both statements true, you can not deny one without denying the other. For example, the Romanists deny justification by grace through faith only. Therefore, they add human works to Holy Absolution. On the other hand, Baptists deny that Holy Baptism is pure grace. Therefore, the human work of Baptism is added to justification: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16

 

Mr Putnam,

The Holy Spirit is within each believer, not in any given 'church.' You will find that in Romans 8:9. A relationship with God is a very personal affair. Just the way the relationship of a child to a Father is. No children need to go through a group of their own to talk to their father!

Nor can you kick out the Holy Spirit. Christ promised not to leave us as orphans, and that very much involves the indwelling Holy Spirit in the heart of those who are born again in Him.

If you think you can kick out the Holy Spirit, I would ask, since when does a father leave the house on his child's orders? And if the child chooses to run away, doesn't the father hunt him down and bring him home?

Same with God. Jesus did not teach us to call Him Father for nothing.

And although I know the point behind the writing by Therese, the fact is that God does not need us at all! He can do anything He wants. He has chosen to work through those who are His, but He certainly is not limited to us! To quote the words of one of the songs my kids brought home from camp one year, "Our God is an awesome God...!"

John G., you need to know that Mark 16:16 is not considered to be part of the original book of Mark. The writing style, vocabulary, and theology all indicate it came much later. It is, interestingly, also the only place where baptism is listed as a prerequisite for salvation. Read the rest of the Bible, and you will not find that prerequisite. Salvation is something that happens directly from God and is not connected with anything we can do, except to submit and agree -- which is not doing anything. It is, rather, finally giving up trying to do something for ourselves!

 

I would refer you to the story of the prodigal son.

He had to return on his own.

His father did not hunt him down.

 

I'm a bit confused, John.

As a Lutheran, do you not believe in infant baptism?

If so, how then does your belief differ from Catholics?

Do Lutherans not also add human works, by your logic?

 

Helen,

Romans 2:5-10 is making a very simple contrast between heaven and hell. It is not contrasting rewards in heaven and hell, that is a leap of logic. In this case the Bible does explain itself quite clearly and boldly.

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Romans 2:7

This isn't talking about additional rewards in heaven, this is the reward of heaven itself.

Likewise, those who do evil will see hell.
"But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger." Romans 2:8

This makes perfect sense because we are justified by our faith working through love and good works. Those who persist and do good are inheriting the promises.

 

I bet to differ, since Christ established his church, based upon the "rock" of Peter (which means "rock") ypon which there is every indication the spirit is with the Church as well, dispite the unfaithfulness of some of the men who run her.

Again, I beg to differ, as I still have my free will of choice to continue following The Christ, who is a person of the Holy Trinity, with the Father and the holy Spirit...or to later deny them and apostize from them. God forbid, but I still have the facilities to not only kick out the holy Spirit, but invite Satan to enter in once again.

Of course Christ promises to stay with us...so long as we continue to love and not to deny Him!

You have that backwards: Like the Prodigal Son, I can leave my Father's house and fall into grave sin! Thank God that the father in that parable will receive back his son in great rejoicing who returns in repentance!

My body is the "Temple of God" so long as I allow God to reside there; God does not force Himself to reside unless I would allow Him to do so. Serious sin can have God vacate.

You see, Helen, God wants us to love Him freely and from the heart by our own free will of choice. That means that God "takes a chance" so to speak in our exercise of free will, we would deny him once again.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

[ July 23, 2003, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: WPutnam ]

 

I agree, Helen, on both points. And you did a much better job of steering the thread back to the original line than I. Thank you. Now, as to your comment/question:

"(H)ow we live our faith is (indeed) our testimony to the world," but I am not writing about living (verb) one's faith; rather, I am writing about one's living (adjective) faith. Salvific faith is far more than mere acknowledgement of a fact. If that were so, Satan and his demons would be saved, for the scripture tells us they know and "tremble." Salvific faith is a faith which is alive - a living faith. The evidence of the vitality of one's faith is seen in both normative and non-normative (for lack of a better term) "acts of faith."

Thanks again, sister; I enjoy your insights.

 

I'm a bit confused, John.

As a Lutheran, do you not believe in infant baptism?

If so, how then does your belief differ from Catholics?

Do Lutherans not also add human works, by your logic? </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, I believe in infant baptism. I reject the false Baptist teaching that children should be excluded because baptism is a human work. I believe that Holy Spirit creates faith in children through the sacrament of Holy Baptism (baptismal regeneration). So children and adults are saved by baptismal grace not by the false Baptist concept of works righteousness. As far as I understand it, Roman Catholic baptismal doctrine is also based on grace alone and faith alone.

My concern with Roman teaching is not with Baptism but with the other Sacraments where human works have been added. I reject all Baptist and Roman teachings that conflict with the scriptural doctrine of grace alone and faith alone.

The church stands or falls on its first and chief article, the doctrine of justification by faith in Christ alone:

[ July 23, 2003, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]

 

Well, at least I got someone to respond to my post, even if the response is DEAD WRONG.

Helen, I simply cannot believe that you could read Romans 2 and come up with the conclusion you have come up with. It is proof of the need for an infallible body to develop, define, and protect orthodoxy of doctrine.

Okay, here we go:

Ro 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

It is speaking about a specific day, the Judgment Day. St. Paul is warning those who have hard and impenitent hearts that this day is coming and woe unto those who shall stand impenitent in it.

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Again, there is a qualifier in this verse. It says EVERY MAN. Not some. Not just the wicked. Not just Gentiles. Not just Jews. EVERY MAN. Does the word "every" MEAN "every" or is God playing games with us here?

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Here is the verse which TOTALLY DISPROVES YOUR CONTENTION!!!

These are those who have patiently continued in "well doing" (read "good works"). They have done so seeking for "glory -- honor --- and IMMORTALITY" Their reward -- eternal life!! There is NO WAY you can make these people be THE WICKED AND THE UNRIGHTEOUS OF PSALMS 1. And they are given eternal life. It is not a gift....it has, according to this verse, been EARNED. It is the result of DOING SOMETHING!!!

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Here are the wicked. Those who do not obey the truth. Unto them is what? Indignation of God and His wrath.

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Then God repeats what He just stated through St. Paul!!

And as if that is not enough, He also restates the case of verse 7:

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

GLORY HONOR AND PEACE to every man that WORKETH GOOD

Sounds to me like what we do in this life as believers has a profound effect upon our eternal destiny. The idea of "faith alone" simply does not enter into this description of the Great Judgment.

Salvation is being rescued from our state of separation and condemnation we have naturally as children of Adam. But eternal life is different from salvation and is called in the Scriptures the "inheritance" of the believers. And inheritances can be lost.

Cordially in Christ through the Theotokos,

Brother Ed

 

Hi Helen,

You wrote, "The Holy Spirit is within each believer, not in any given 'church.' You will find that in Romans 8:9. A relationship with God is a very personal affair.

Without denying the obvious fact that our relationship with God is a personal one, this personal relationship with the Risen Lord cannot be separated from our communion with His Church. To a first-century Jew, to be in covenant means to be united to others through sacred kinship bonds. It means to be one of the covenant People of God. It means to be united to all of those in the covenant.

Jesus explicitly acknowledges the ecclesial nature of the Christian vocation in describing how one is to be treated if he refuses to listen even to the Church:

"If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector" (Mt 18:17).

To be in covenant also means to be under the authority of the elders in the covenant family, and in the New Covenant Household of God, the elders are not so by age (this family is not natural, but supernatural). They are elders by virtue of the "laying on of the hands".

"I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands" (2 Tim 1:6).

These elders are appointed in apostolic succession; they aren't voted in by the congregation. The Church is the kingdom of God, not the democracy of God:

"This is why I left you in Crete, that you might amend what was defective, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you" (Titus 1:5).

We are to submit to them:

"Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account" (Heb 13:17).


You wrote, "if the child chooses to run away, doesn't the father hunt him down and bring him home?"

According to Scripture, the Father of the Prodigal Son didn't hunt his son down. He waited patiently for the son to return home, and when the son did, the Father rushed out to greet him and reinstate him in the family (this is signified by the signet ring, which is placed on the son's finger).

You also wrote, "Mark 16:16 is not considered to be part of the original book of Mark."

Says who? Helen?

So, is this how it goes now:

1. We disagree with a passage of Scripture.
2. We discount the passage of Scripture.
3. *Batabing* Problem solved.