No one is righteous = No one can believe???

how do you always have double posts? I thought the board had something to help prevent that. I know another board I'm on will sometimes come up and say you can't post within a few seconds of each other to prevent it. Weird.

 

I'm sorry, but where exactly does it say that Cornelius wasn't saved? i just read Acts 10 and didn't see anywhere about Cornelius not being saved.

 

No, no. If god is trying to save everybody, if he intends for everybody to be saved and most are not; if he has gone to great lengths to save everybody and most are not saved- that is the essence of failure.

Then you believe that it is God's purpose for MANY to go to hell, right?

Which he failed to do- at the very least his means are VERY ineffective.

Because his desire for his own glory is far greater than his desire for all men to be saved.

In the end of chapter two he is expounding his ministry being one of Spirit power rather than carnal power. He is saying that he did not come with excellency of speech, etc but in the power of the Spirit. But the natural man, who almost EVERYONE agrees in unregenerate, CANNOT receive the things of the Spirit of God.

A Christian can be carnal but an unregenerate man cannot be anything BUT carnal.

And so long as they are enemies they are not reconciled. Romans 8 is very clear- the carnal mind is always enmity against God and CANNOT be subject to the law of God.

So the carnal mind must be regenerated so that it can be transformed from carnal to spiritual.

 

Read from verses 34-43, Peter preached the gospel to Cornelius.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

This is the gospel my friend. And what happened next?

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Faith comes by hearing the word of God (Rom 10:17), and we receive the Spirit by the hearing of faith (Gal 3:2).

This is when Cornelius was saved. Why would God send Peter to preach the gospel to Cornelius if he were already saved?

The problem is that Calvinism has made the scriptures nonsensical to you.

 

Thanks, I'll go back and re-read it again.

 

couple of quick thoughts...
1. There were more people than just Cornelius.
2. The gospel is for saved people just as much as unsaved people, though in this context it was being used to bring people to Christ for salvation.

 

What? A saved person needs to hear the gospel? Why?

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God.

The scriptures say a believer is supposed to go forward, not keep hearing the gospel over and over again. The gospel is for unbelievers, not people who have already heard it and been saved.

 

Wow, really sad to hear that from you. The gospel should be central to our lives. It is extremely important in the life of a Christian.

 

So then God has no desire to save those who do not meet this "condition", right?

If he is always successful at accomplishing his purpose and most men do indeed go to hell then he must have purposed that most men go to hell.

Spare me this crud. It is snotty and insulting and misplaced.

You, apparently have not thought through the implications of the claims you are making here.

Do not sigh at me for pointing this out.


Cut that snotty mess out and we will continue.

 

This is such an important verse with that.

Hebrews 5:
Warning Against Falling Away
11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. 12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

 

I love to hear the gospel, it is the message that saved my soul, and our pastor almost always presents it at the end of service and invites folks to come down and find out from the scriptures how they can be saved. I always pray for people that they might come down, but I don't go down myself, I received Jesus many years ago. A person only gets saved once.

 

Of course you only get saved once and I'm thrilled that you are saved. But the gospel is still central to the life of the Christian. I'll start another thread later on with some thoughts on why the gospel is still important. I'm going to be busy the next few days, but may have some time.

 

Couple of points here...

BOTH Cals/Arms teach that mankind is "dead" to God, by virtue of being born "In Adam" We are depraived in ourselves, no rightous in us to present to God, and that are Unable to come to God "on our own"

So God HAS to send to us His grace, enabling us to be in a spiritual stae actually able to receive jesus Christ by faith and be saved/reconciled to God...

So basic question comes down to this...

Did God choose to directly intervene by electing out of a reprobate race His chosen people, by giving them the Grace/enabling to respond by faith, and they shall be saved... God ultimate source/basis of salvation
OR
Did God freely chose to "limit" Himself, in order to allow sinners to have their "free will" as the determining factor if one gets saved or not?

remember that even Jesus said that broad is way to destruction road MANY will freely choose to travel, and that "few" will be those who find the narrow way/road to Eternal life..

We believe that God will make sure those "few" will indded find their way, as He will be direct causal to them getting saved!

 

I agree with this post, Brother. When I hear the gospel preached in a God sent message, it recharges my batteries, and makes my week go by so much better.

 

I just want to be clear- because I am actually thrilled to hear you say this- it makes you seem more sensible to me than those who have God trying to save everybody and failing miserably.

Answer as clearly as possible: Are you saying that God is NOT trying to save everybody?

Does he love those who do NOT choose Christ as much as he loves those who DO?

You do believe in unlimited atonement though right?

I think you believe in substitutionary atonement- ALTHOUGH that is NOT the classical Arminian viewpoint, is it?

But you just believe that Christ suffered unspeakable agony for TRILLIONS of sins that would STILL be punished on the heads of most of those who Christ died for- so you think he died- NOT TO SAVE- but just to make salvation possible, right?

What do YOU think his purpose is?
I think his primary purpose is ALWAYS the same- to bring him glory.

That is the right reason to do anything, whether you are a man, an angel or God- to bring God glory is the highest good in the universe.

It is just RIGHT to do what you do for God's glory. So it is right for God to do what he does for God's glory.

You keep tossing around that word "few" as a stinger, I guess. I guess it makes you come across more winsome to some folks and us Calvinists come across as haters or something.

But the fact of the matter is that MANY Calvinists believe as Spurgeon and I do that all babies who God plans to take in their childhood God has elected.

Thus- MOST humans are elect. Heaven will be more populated than hell, if what MANY of us Calvinists believe is true.

I believe that too!:thumbs:

I believe that too!:thumbs:

No. Not according to what you are saying above. According to what you are saying above his purpose is just to OFFER redemption to all- to make it possible and OFFER it. But he has NO PURPOSE, nor has he EVER had any purpose of ever saving the vast majority of accountable humanity.

You are saying, at least in what you have said in the last few posts, that God has no PURPOSE to redeem many BILLIONS of humans. He ONLY had a purpose to OFFER- to OFFER, I'll say it again so we can be clear- you are saying his purpose was just to OFFER salvation to every man.

That is how you say he never fails.

Because, Skan, God can't PURPOSE to redeem every single person on earth and have MOST of them go TOTALLY unredeemed and be a success.

No. If God's purpose is to REDEEM every single human being on earth, then he is FAILING miserably.

But your position doesn't make God any more palatable to the man-centered religious masses than mine when you break it down, does it?

No, it just makes MOST- and I mean MOST of Christ's suffering absolutely senseless.

Why? Because you have Christ SUFFERING for every single sin of every single human being and MOST- I mean the VAST majority of that suffering does not actually ever atone at all.

We believe this too! :thumbs:

No. I sigh at my children because I grow weary at times of their insolence. That is why we sigh in a conversation. It is snotty when you do it to someone who is at least your equal.

Because it is not applicable. The father is too human in your illustration to be able to represent the Almighty and his eternal purposes and his bringing to pass his will perfectly in every instance at all times.

This father wills in an ultimate fashion his daughter to sit. She does not. He has NOT brought his will to pass. His ULTIMATE plan has been thwarted by this stubborn little girl. This father is thus most CERTAINLY not analogous to Almighty God.

 

No. You are not clarifying. Be very clear here.

Does God want to save everybody or not.

Don't continue to deflect.

Is it true or false that God, before he built the universe, INTENDED for many to perish?

True or false, Skan. Just answer it without deflection- without introducing terminology that muddies the water like "God did not purpose to effectually make everyone believe"

That is another issue.

This is the issue here.

Did God intend to save everybody before he built the universe?
Did God intend for many to perish in his original design?

But he does not want to save those who do not, right?

He always intended for those people to perish before he made the world, right?

He never had any purpose to save those people who he knew would not believe, correct?

He always intended for those people to perish, right?

Then he is not TRYING to bring everyone to faith, right?

So you DON'T believe in substitutionary atonement!!

You do NOT believe he died in the sinner's place!

Then enlighten me as to what you think he designed in this universe to bring him glory.

How does the destruction of the impenitent bring God glory in your mindset?

Yea, but since I've corrected you I know you'll abandon using that term.

We have as many people in heaven as you do. You do not have one more. If we only have a few- so do you. Sorry.

Yea, because you deny God his Sovereignty in the choices of men.

And you have a freedom that is philosophically untenable.

Uh... yea, I do:

The NUMBER ONE definition for freely is EXACTLY how I mean it.

See. You are addicted to snottiness. This statement is snotty.

If you don't want me to slam you and to be aggressive and if you want me to be kind in our exchanges- stop being snotty. I am not sanctified enough to be sweet to people who are being snotty.

You are not brilliant enough to justify such snottiness.

Well good. I hope you will.

And he DOES NOT get his way. That is why your analogy is impotent.

No, because he intended me to fail before he built the universe. He purposed it.

Now listen- I can't explain that. I never will be able to explain it- probably not even in eternity.

Somehow I am truly responsible for my failure and rightly accountable for it. God is not pleased with me for my failure. He is in fact displeased with me. But at the same time, I DON'T know HOW they work together, but the Bible teaches them both (which is why I am a compatabalist), God is bringing his will to pass- that very will he forever in eternity past had- that very thing he has ALWAYS intended to happen.