No one on BB has every prayed for an animal?

[DHK]

I notice you ignore the other verses I referenced that destroy your thesis and instead try to deflect by making it about me, charging me with new ageism -- a complete lie, but typical of you. You are despicable.

First, I told you that I came into this discussion when you were discussing Romans 8 and I have stuck with that.
Second, you have used outside Scripture that is irrelevant.
It is like saying: "Judas went out and hung himself" That is proof of his suicide.
Supporting scripture: "Go and do thou likewise."

The fact is that nothing you have said contradicts my explanation of the passage at hand. Deal with the text. If you can't explain explain the text in the context of the chapter it is given then you fail to understand what it is all about.

Christus Victor was THE orthodox view for a thousand years. It's the 15th century innovation, penal substitution, that is heretical.

They say purgatory was too. That doesn't make it right. I base my beliefs on the Bible not on history. They also believed Caesar was a god. That also is in the Bible. It doesn't make it right. And God saw that it wasn't right, and smote him.
You appeal to history and not the Word of God.
I appeal to the Word of God and not to history. That is the difference. Your approach is very much like that of the RCC.

Try to deflect, twist, and spin all you want; the scriptures I referenced affirm what I hold and disprove what you hold. And you are supposed to be the inerrantist. Looks like the charge of disbelieving the Bible fits you instead of me.

I have explained to you literally what that passage means so that it can't be any clearly. I have used a different translation to make it even clearer. I am not the one doing the spinning. You are in a state of denial when it comes to Romans 8, and won't concede that on some passages of Scripture you have a wrong interpretation. That is all there is to it.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

First, I told you that I came into this discussion when you were discussing Romans 8 and I have stuck with that.
Second, you have used outside Scripture that is irrelevant.
It is like saying: "Judas went out and hung himself" That is proof of his suicide.
Supporting scripture: "Go and do thou likewise."

The fact is that nothing you have said contradicts my explanation of the passage at hand. Deal with the text. If you can't explain explain the text in the context of the chapter it is given then you fail to understand what it is all about.

They say purgatory was too. That doesn't make it right. I base my beliefs on the Bible not on history. They also believed Caesar was a god. That also is in the Bible. It doesn't make it right. And God saw that it wasn't right, and smote him.
You appeal to history and not the Word of God.
I appeal to the Word of God and not to history. That is the difference. Your approach is very much like that of the RCC.

I have explained to you literally what that passage means so that it can't be any clearly. I have used a different translation to make it even clearer. I am not the one doing the spinning. You are in a state of denial when it comes to Romans 8, and won't concede that on some passages of Scripture you have a wrong interpretation. That is all there is to it.

Your failure to address the other scriptures I referenced speaks volumes. You won't address them because they affirm the Romans passage, they affirm my view, and explicitly contradict yours. Redemption is a past, present, and future event.

As I have said countless times, the earliest Christians had the same scriptures that we have, and they believed in Christus Victor or a variant of it, along with the moral influence theory. This was THE view for the first millenium. Penal substitution was unknown and untaught by the earliest Christians because they did not see it in the scriptures. It took a legalistic murderer to invent it, which is no coincidence. The reason there is no trace of penal substitution in the earliest churches is because it is completely unscriptural. So, it is YOU, not I, who gets your view from history -- and 1500 years of history after the fact.

All you can do in defense is to sling mud at me by saying I am "new age". That is a pitifully pathetic, libelous, and small-minded thing to do.

I have a charge that I could tag you with, but I won't stoop to your level.

 

[DHK]

I thought you might know which scripture I was hinting at, but I guess not.

Here is your first response to my post which you really didn't try to answer:

I notice you ignore the other verses I referenced that destroy your thesis and instead try to deflect by making it about me, charging me with new ageism -- a complete lie, but typical of you. You are despicable.

Christus Victor was THE orthodox view for a thousand years. It's the 15th century innovation, penal substitution, that is heretical.

Try to deflect, twist, and spin all you want; the scriptures I referenced affirm what I hold and disprove what you hold. And you are supposed to be the inerrantist. Looks like the charge of disbelieving the Bible fits you instead of me.

Notice in this post, and in any of the posts I have discussed with you on this thread no mention has been made of "Christus Victor." You just inserted it in your answer as if we had been talking about it all along. It is a complete red herring.

Nevertheless, for your sake I will answer your post below.

I was hoping you might recall Paul's words in 2 Corinthians 4:16. Also, look at Colossians 3:10. These verses note the salvation and redemption process that we are in, just as the Romans passage does concerning humans and the creation.

They do not!! Do you really study your Bible??

[FONT=&quot]2 Corinthians 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.[/FONT]
--Here Paul is talking about his own testimony; how he has suffered for Christ. In part it is a defense of his apostleship. He has suffered much. Thus he says the outward man (the body) perishes. The 2nd law of Thermodynamics is in play here. But the inward man is renewed day by day. This has to do with his relationship with Christ. Through trials and tribulations he is brought even closer to Christ. "All who live Godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." This is not redemption; it is sanctification. It is a matter of growth in the Christian life and a growing relationship with Christ.

Colossians 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
--This is a comparison to the old man. He has just finished saying that they (as believers) were dead to sin.
Look at the command he gave them:
Colossians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
On the one hand: Mortify! On the other hand: Put on the new man!
This is not a process. These are commands that we are daily to live out in the Christian life. It has nothing to do with redemption, but again with sanctification and holiness. They are contrasted because you must do both every day. It is not speaking of redemption!

This process of redemption began with a past event -- the incarnation, atonement, and resurrection of Jesus -- continues in the present, and will culminate in the future with the vision that Paul has in Romans 8:18-23. Thus, our redemption and that of the creation has been accomplished, is being accomplished at present, and will be brought to complete accomplishment in the future.

It is a past event. Either you are redeemed or you are not. Either Christ has paid for your sins with his precious blood or he has not. Have you been redeemed. You can only answer a yes or no. It is not a process.

Therefore, the entire creation was redeemed, is being redeemed (Paul says "being renewed day by day"), and will be redeemed.

Come pull the thistles out of my garden then. Take care of the ant colonies in my lawn. The paint on my fence has peeled off. My van has started to rust. Why don't you come and take care of all these things IF the creation has been redeemed. For if it has been redeemed the second law of Thermodynamics would not be in play, and those things would not be happening. You live in a dream world.

Here is what this world will look like when the curse will be lifted:
Isaiah 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

That is the wholistic teaching of the NT, as opposed to the compartmentalization that some see the Gospel as being.

I take it you don't believe in dispensations.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Here is your first response to my post which you really didn't try to answer:

I notice you ignore the other verses I referenced that destroy your thesis and instead try to deflect by making it about me, charging me with new ageism -- a complete lie, but typical of you. You are despicable.

Christus Victor was THE orthodox view for a thousand years. It's the 15th century innovation, penal substitution, that is heretical.

Try to deflect, twist, and spin all you want; the scriptures I referenced affirm what I hold and disprove what you hold. And you are supposed to be the inerrantist. Looks like the charge of disbelieving the Bible fits you instead of me.

Notice in this post, and in any of the posts I have discussed with you on this thread no mention has been made of "Christus Victor." You just inserted it in your answer as if we had been talking about it all along. It is a complete red herring.

Nevertheless, for your sake I will answer your post below.

They do not!! Do you really study your Bible??

[FONT=&quot]2 Corinthians 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.[/FONT]
--Here Paul is talking about his own testimony; how he has suffered for Christ. In part it is a defense of his apostleship. He has suffered much. Thus he says the outward man (the body) perishes. The 2nd law of Thermodynamics is in play here. But the inward man is renewed day by day. This has to do with his relationship with Christ. Through trials and tribulations he is brought even closer to Christ. "All who live Godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." This is not redemption; it is sanctification. It is a matter of growth in the Christian life and a growing relationship with Christ.

Colossians 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
--This is a comparison to the old man. He has just finished saying that they (as believers) were dead to sin.
Look at the command he gave them:
Colossians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
On the one hand: Mortify! On the other hand: Put on the new man!
This is not a process. These are commands that we are daily to live out in the Christian life. It has nothing to do with redemption, but again with sanctification and holiness. They are contrasted because you must do both every day. It is not speaking of redemption!

It is a past event. Either you are redeemed or you are not. Either Christ has paid for your sins with his precious blood or he has not. Have you been redeemed. You can only answer a yes or no. It is not a process.

Come pull the thistles out of my garden then. Take care of the ant colonies in my lawn. The paint on my fence has peeled off. My van has started to rust. Why don't you come and take care of all these things IF the creation has been redeemed. For if it has been redeemed the second law of Thermodynamics would not be in play, and those things would not be happening. You live in a dream world.

Here is what this world will look like when the curse will be lifted:
Isaiah 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

I take it you don't believe in dispensations.

Can you follow and comprehend linguistics? What part of "is being renewed" do you not get? All the passages I have referenced -- Romans, 2 Cor., Colossians -- show that salvation and redemption are a process, objectively obtained by the incarnation, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus; at work in our lives and in the creation now, and culminating in the vision of Romans 8: 18-23.

You can compartmentalize the work of Jesus if you wish and isolate the various aspects of His work from each other, but the Bible teaches it in a wholistic manner, with a beginning, a continuation, and a consummation. Those who view the work of Christ as forensic and legalistic are missing how God relates to man and the creation, and they are the poorer for it. God is close to his creation; He is not a stern, vengeful, angry judge in some far-off place. He is, as the Bible says, as close as our next breath.

Though our flesh is failing and the material world is decaying, we and the creation have been redeemed, are being redeemed every day from death and decay, and one day our redemption will be complete, when as the Romans passage promises we "will be set free from our slavery to corruption" -- both humans and the creation. And as it also says, "waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body." This phrase alone -- adoption as sons -- in this context shows that our adoption is not yet complete, that it awaits final fulfillment in the future. Yes, we were adopted as sons when we believed in the work of Christ, but this passage clearly shows that this adoption and redemption has a past, present, and future aspect.

All of this irrefutably demonstrates that we and the creation have been redeemed by an event in the past -- the whole work of Jesus; are being redeemed in the present, and will be completely redeemed one day in the future at the resurrection of our body, and the renewal of the creation.

I hope to see you there. But of course as one who sees me as a heretic and worse, you probably don't expect to see me there. But you've got a surprise coming.

 

[DHK]

Can you follow and comprehend linguistics? What part of "is being renewed" do you not get? All the passages I have referenced -- Romans, 2 Cor., Colossians -- show that salvation and redemption are a process, objectively obtained by the incarnation, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus; at work in our lives and in the creation now, and culminating in the vision of Romans 8: 18-23.

Words have meaning. You are not at liberty to change them. We are not being redeemed day by day. To be redeemed means to buy back; to pay the price. That is what Hosea did when he redeemed his wife from the auction block. He redeemed her. That is what Boaz did for Ruth. He paid a price for her. He was her "Kinsman-Redeemer."

However in Romans 12:2
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

You are transformed day by day by the day by day renewing of your mind.
The renewal of the mind cannot be redeeming of the mind. The two are very different and in no way are even related to each other.
You are either redeemed or you are not.
Renewal needs to take place each day. Re-new. Make new, or new again. Not as in redemption, but as in washing your face every morning. Make it clean every day. Make your soul clean as well. The word of God cleanses us.

You can compartmentalize the work of Jesus if you wish and isolate the various aspects of His work from each other, but the Bible teaches it in a wholistic manner, with a beginning, a continuation, and a consummation.

You are not even speaking of redemption when you mention renewal.

Those who view the work of Christ as forensic and legalistic are missing how God relates to man and the creation, and they are the poorer for it.

Just stick with Biblical terms and you will do a lot better. Did Christ pay for our sins, or not? What is the teaching in 1John 2:1,2?

God is close to his creation; He is not a stern, vengeful, angry judge in some far-off place.

What gives you the idea that he is? Who believes that but the Muslims?

He is, as the Bible says, as close as our next breath.

I don't know what verse your speaking about, but it sounds like one relating to death.

Though our flesh is failing and the material world is decaying, we and the creation have been redeemed, are being redeemed every day from death and decay,

But that is not true. You either are lying or live in a dream world. Every day things get worse and worse, not better and better. What will it take to convince you of that? World War III is about to break out. Iran and Israel are on the verge of war. And didn't you know that the American economy is all hunky-dorky. In case you didn't notice something they call Sandy just visited the East Coast. She decided to drop in. She wasn't a very nice visitor--through quite the temper-tantrum, I hear. I could go on and on and on. This world is not getting better and better. It is getting worse and worse. The Curse has not been lifted, not even in part.

and one day our redemption will be complete, when as the Romans passage promises we "will be set free from our slavery to corruption" -- both humans and the creation. And as it also says, "waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body."

The redemption of our body refers to the resurrection.
When the curse is lifted from the rest of creation it will by at the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom and not a second before.

This phrase alone -- adoption as sons -- in this context shows that our adoption is not yet complete, that it awaits final fulfillment in the future. Yes, we were adopted as sons when we believed in the work of Christ, but this passage clearly shows that this adoption and redemption has a past, present, and future aspect.

I have already been adopted.

Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

The fact that I have been adopted means that at the time that the resurrection takes place I will then receive my inheritance for which we wait for (8:19).

All of this irrefutably demonstrates that we and the creation have been redeemed by an event in the past -- the whole work of Jesus; are being redeemed in the present, and will be completely redeemed one day in the future at the resurrection of our body, and the renewal of the creation.

There is no "are being redeemed." Either you are redeemed or you are not. Which is it? The work of Jesus does not go on in the present. The SDA's believe that. Are you SDA--Bob Ryan under a different name? Christ has finished his work. John 19:30 has a lot of meaning behind it: It is finished. Do you believe that verse?

I hope to see you there. But of course as one who sees me as a heretic and worse, you probably don't expect to see me there. But you've got a surprise coming.

Are you redeemed? Yes or no?
It is not a process.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Words have meaning. You are not at liberty to change them. We are not being redeemed day by day. To be redeemed means to buy back; to pay the price. That is what Hosea did when he redeemed his wife from the auction block. He redeemed her. That is what Boaz did for Ruth. He paid a price for her. He was her "Kinsman-Redeemer."

However in Romans 12:2
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

You are transformed day by day by the day by day renewing of your mind.
The renewal of the mind cannot be redeeming of the mind. The two are very different and in no way are even related to each other.
You are either redeemed or you are not.
Renewal needs to take place each day. Re-new. Make new, or new again. Not as in redemption, but as in washing your face every morning. Make it clean every day. Make your soul clean as well. The word of God cleanses us.

You are not even speaking of redemption when you mention renewal.

Just stick with Biblical terms and you will do a lot better. Did Christ pay for our sins, or not? What is the teaching in 1John 2:1,2?

What gives you the idea that he is? Who believes that but the Muslims?

I don't know what verse your speaking about, but it sounds like one relating to death.

But that is not true. You either are lying or live in a dream world. Every day things get worse and worse, not better and better. What will it take to convince you of that? World War III is about to break out. Iran and Israel are on the verge of war. And didn't you know that the American economy is all hunky-dorky. In case you didn't notice something they call Sandy just visited the East Coast. She decided to drop in. She wasn't a very nice visitor--through quite the temper-tantrum, I hear. I could go on and on and on. This world is not getting better and better. It is getting worse and worse. The Curse has not been lifted, not even in part.

The redemption of our body refers to the resurrection.
When the curse is lifted from the rest of creation it will by at the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom and not a second before.

I have already been adopted.

Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

The fact that I have been adopted means that at the time that the resurrection takes place I will then receive my inheritance for which we wait for (8:19).

There is no "are being redeemed." Either you are redeemed or you are not. Which is it? The work of Jesus does not go on in the present. The SDA's believe that. Are you SDA--Bob Ryan under a different name? Christ has finished his work. John 19:30 has a lot of meaning behind it: It is finished. Do you believe that verse?

Are you redeemed? Yes or no?
It is not a process.

It is difficult to have a conversation with one who has no understanding of linguistics. Romans 8:23 says "waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons", which clearly and irrefutably shows that there is an aspect of our adoption that is still in the future. All of the passages I have referenced evidence the truth of this and of what I have stated: That our redemption is an ongoing process -- having occurred with the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus; continuing in the present; and awaiting ultimate fulfillment in the future.


Instead of accusing me of lying, it would help if you would try to understand and see the scriptures in the context of the setting in which they were produced -- and that means in a different context than what your Latinized, Anglo, Western mind is conditioned with.

Who said anything about the curse having been lifted, or the world getting better? Are you incapable of seeing what Paul said, and what I have been saying? Can you not understand the dichotomous but true teaching of decay and renewal, happening at the same time? This is the redemptive process which Paul so eloquently writes about. He expressly and explicitly says, "waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons"! This indicates a future action.

So, we have been redeemed; are being redeemed (though the creation and our bodies are decaying, there is spiritual renewal and redemption going on in both); and will be redeemed in the future. The creation itself is presented as "longing", and groaning and suffering the pains of childbirth.

Have I been redeemed? Yes. And I am being redeemed, and when I am resurrected and given my new body, my redemption will be complete.

 

[DHK]

It is difficult to have a conversation with one who has no understanding of linguistics. Romans 8:23 says "waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons", which clearly and irrefutably shows that there is an aspect of our adoption that is still in the future. All of the passages I have referenced evidence the truth of this and of what I have stated: That our redemption is an ongoing process -- having occurred with the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus; continuing in the present; and awaiting ultimate fulfillment in the future.

It is not my problem, but yours. I am sure that America has plenty adoption agencies don't they? You do know what one is, and what their intended purpose is, and how they function? I have a close relative who adopted a four year old son who came from an abusive family. Legally now, he is the child of my relative, and has a second chance at life, so to speak. I was "adopted" when I was born again, born into God's family. That is when he gave me spiritual life and saved me from bondage to sin. Adoption takes place the moment a person is saved. You are totally confused in regard to Romans 8:23.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Adoption and redemption are synonyms here. "To wit" means "to know".
We wait for our adoption, that is, our redemption--the redemption of our body--the resurrection--the rapture; the second coming.
If you haven't been adopted you haven't been saved.
If you haven't been redeemed you haven't been saved.
Both adoption and redemption mean the same thing here. They are synonyms.

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
--If you have the spirit of bondage you are not saved.
--If you have not received the Spirit of adoption you are not saved.
Either you are adopted or you are not; saved or not. It is not a process, and neither is redemption.

(Geneva) And not onely the creature, but we also which haue the first fruites of the Spirit, euen we doe sigh in our selues, waiting for the adoption, euen the redemption of our body.

Instead of accusing me of lying, it would help if you would try to understand and see the scriptures in the context of the setting in which they were produced -- and that means in a different context than what your Latinized, Anglo, Western mind is conditioned with.

What lie have I told? Don't accuse me without proof. And you are the one that keeps going out of context. I try to confine this to Romans 8 and you want to go hither and yon.

Who said anything about the curse having been lifted, or the world getting better?

If redemption were a continual process things would be getting better, but they aren't. This cursed world is still under a curse and only getting worse. It is not being constantly redeemed.

Are you incapable of seeing what Paul said, and what I have been saying? Can you not understand the dichotomous but true teaching of decay and renewal, happening at the same time?

Spiritual renewal is inward and can only be true of a believer.
All the rest of the universe and mankind is under a curse and is degenerating.

This is the redemptive process which Paul so eloquently writes about. He expressly and explicitly says, "waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons"! This indicates a future action.

Yes, it points to the resurrection, something you fail to see.

So, we have been redeemed; are being redeemed (though the creation and our bodies are decaying, there is spiritual renewal and redemption going on in both); and will be redeemed in the future. The creation itself is presented as "longing", and groaning and suffering the pains of childbirth.

Malarkey!

Have I been redeemed? Yes. And I am being redeemed, and when I am resurrected and given my new body, my redemption will be complete.

You are not being redeemed right now. Call it renewal. Call it sanctification. But it is not redemption. That happened in the past. It happens when one trusts Christ.
Are you familiar with the hymn:
"I have been redeemed" or "I've been redeemed."
Why do you think that they have been written in those verb tenses?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

It is not my problem, but yours. I am sure that America has plenty adoption agencies don't they? You do know what one is, and what their intended purpose is, and how they function? I have a close relative who adopted a four year old son who came from an abusive family. Legally now, he is the child of my relative, and has a second chance at life, so to speak. I was "adopted" when I was born again, born into God's family. That is when he gave me spiritual life and saved me from bondage to sin. Adoption takes place the moment a person is saved. You are totally confused in regard to Romans 8:23.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Adoption and redemption are synonyms here. "To wit" means "to know".
We wait for our adoption, that is, our redemption--the redemption of our body--the resurrection--the rapture; the second coming.
If you haven't been adopted you haven't been saved.
If you haven't been redeemed you haven't been saved.
Both adoption and redemption mean the same thing here. They are synonyms.

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
--If you have the spirit of bondage you are not saved.
--If you have not received the Spirit of adoption you are not saved.
Either you are adopted or you are not; saved or not. It is not a process, and neither is redemption.

(Geneva) And not onely the creature, but we also which haue the first fruites of the Spirit, euen we doe sigh in our selues, waiting for the adoption, euen the redemption of our body.

What lie have I told? Don't accuse me without proof. And you are the one that keeps going out of context. I try to confine this to Romans 8 and you want to go hither and yon.

If redemption were a continual process things would be getting better, but they aren't. This cursed world is still under a curse and only getting worse. It is not being constantly redeemed.

Spiritual renewal is inward and can only be true of a believer.
All the rest of the universe and mankind is under a curse and is degenerating.

Yes, it points to the resurrection, something you fail to see.

Malarkey!

You are not being redeemed right now. Call it renewal. Call it sanctification. But it is not redemption. That happened in the past. It happens when one trusts Christ.
Are you familiar with the hymn:
"I have been redeemed" or "I've been redeemed."
Why do you think that they have been written in those verb tenses?

Continue to believe what you believe, and I'll continue to believe the truth.

I just find it amazing that the point of this thread has gotten such opposition. To take such an innocent and appropriate thing as praying for an animal inside four church walls and tear it down and apart with such legalism and nit-picking pettiness says a lot more about those who do such a thing than it does about the service itself. If nothing more has been accomplished with this thread than exposing that state of mind, heart, and spirit, I guess it has been worth it.

 

[DHK]

Continue to believe what you believe, and I'll continue to believe the truth.

I just find it amazing that the point of this thread has gotten such opposition. To take such an innocent and appropriate thing as praying for an animal inside four church walls and tear it down and apart with such legalism and nit-picking pettiness says a lot more about those who do such a thing than it does about the service itself. If nothing more has been accomplished with this thread than exposing that state of mind, heart, and spirit, I guess it has been worth it.

Your argument was way off track before I ever came into this thread. Part of the reason I came was your misuse of this passage surrounding Romans 8:23. It has nothing to do with the blessing or prayer of an animal. It has to do with our resurrection, and looking forward to the Millennial Kingdom when the curse will be lifted from the earth. That is what the passage is speaking about. How that relates to praying for animals I will never know.

The church (assembly) has many functions. They can be summed up in this cogent definition. The purpose of the church is to carry out the Great Commission and observe the two ordinances (baptism by immersion and the Lord's Table) as the Lord has commanded us.

Almost everything, every obligation that a local church has can be found right there. There is no corporate blessing of animals as a function of the local church. It has much more important things to do in this world as it sees it perish. The Great Commission was given for the salvation and discipleship of mankind not of animals. If you want to pray for Lassie do it in your own home. Keep it a private matter. We all don't have to hear about it, though the odd person might be bold enough to put it on Facebook these days.

 

[The Biblicist]

See bold: Who said that?! In fact, I said just the opposite.

Funny that you guys are ignoring the other scriptures I referenced. My point has been made and proved.

The point is that the body is not being presently redeemed but is dying. Its redemption is yet future as this context plainly and explicitly states as my underlined and bold portions fully declare. This text has nothing to do with praying for animals at all.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Your argument was way off track before I ever came into this thread. Part of the reason I came was your misuse of this passage surrounding Romans 8:23. It has nothing to do with the blessing or prayer of an animal. It has to do with our resurrection, and looking forward to the Millennial Kingdom when the curse will be lifted from the earth. That is what the passage is speaking about. How that relates to praying for animals I will never know.

The church (assembly) has many functions. They can be summed up in this cogent definition. The purpose of the church is to carry out the Great Commission and observe the two ordinances (baptism by immersion and the Lord's Table) as the Lord has commanded us.

Almost everything, every obligation that a local church has can be found right there. There is no corporate blessing of animals as a function of the local church. It has much more important things to do in this world as it sees it perish. The Great Commission was given for the salvation and discipleship of mankind not of animals. If you want to pray for Lassie do it in your own home. Keep it a private matter. We all don't have to hear about it, though the odd person might be bold enough to put it on Facebook these days.

And if you want to continue in your narrow-minded, self-righteous, nit-picking, petty, sarcastic legalism, by all means do so. It fits you perfectly.

The Bible affirms that Jesus has redeemed the creation, so your denial of that makes you a liar and a denier of scripture. And you and your cohorts have the nerve to accuse anyone else of heresy and not believing the Bible.

BTW, I would prefer Lassie's company to yours -- here and in the new world to come.

 

[padredurand]

And if you want to continue in your narrow-minded, self-righteous, nit-picking, petty, sarcastic legalism, by all means do so. It fits you perfectly.

The Bible affirms that Jesus has redeemed the creation, so your denial of that makes you a liar and a denier of scripture. And you and your cohorts have the nerve to accuse anyone else of heresy and not believing the Bible.

BTW, I would prefer Lassie's company to yours -- here and in the new world to come.

WOW! That's not debating, Michael. That is just plain rude. My grandpa used to say you could tell who had the weaker argument by how loud they were in trying to make their point. Now that your justification for these animal services has been reduced to this my sympathies have turned to poor Lassie who may have to spend eternity at your feet. Poor dog.:tear:

 

[Michael Wrenn]

WOW! That's not debating, Michael. That is just plain rude. My grandpa used to say you could tell who had the weaker argument by how loud they were in trying to make their point. Now that your justification for these animal services has been reduced to this my sympathies have turned to poor Lassie who may have to spend eternity at your feet. Poor dog.:tear:

I had just had enough of the heresy charges and the sarcasm. Guess you skipped over that in your selective reading, huh? That is what DHK and a few others here routinely do, and I'm supposed to just take it and be quiet? Sorry, I won't do it. I will tell it like it is.

I get along quite well with my animal companions, thank you. In fact, the more I interact with certain humans, the more I like my dogs and cats.

 

[annsni]

I had just had enough of the heresy charges and the sarcasm. Guess you skipped over that in your selective reading, huh? That is what DHK and a few others here routinely do, and I'm supposed to just take it and be quiet? Sorry, I won't do it. I will tell it like it is.

I get along quite well with my animal companions, thank you. In fact, the more I interact with certain humans, the more I like my dogs and cats.

John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

 

[Jerome]

From a Joni and Friends broadcast several months ago:

http://www.joniandfriends.org/radio/5-minute/prayer-dogs/

you may not know that this is National Assistance Dog Week and I thank the Lord for those wonderful canine companions who make such a big difference in the lives of me and my friends. Want to see a few of these very happy service dogs? Then check out my radio page at joniandfriends.org and take a minute to celebrate the blessing that these service dogs make in the lives of so many people with disabilities!

God doesn’t care that a little dog hair might get on the carpet in a church’s prayer room, but He sure does care about the heart attitudes we bring before His throne of grace; He cares about how seriously we take our prayers and whether or not we offer them in humility and in a spirit of worship. He cares about honesty before Him and repentance and confession, but a dog in His presence, what is the big deal? Matthew 23 extols a higher law, which underscores prudence, compassion, and a more exalted perspective!

 

[Michael Wrenn]

John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Preaching to yourself, Ann?

 

[DHK]

And if you want to continue in your narrow-minded, self-righteous, nit-picking, petty, sarcastic legalism, by all means do so. It fits you perfectly.

And what Scriptural point of mine are you refuting?

The Bible affirms that Jesus has redeemed the creation, so your denial of that makes you a liar and a denier of scripture. And you and your cohorts have the nerve to accuse anyone else of heresy and not believing the Bible.

If you were debating someone else you would get an infraction for so many personal attacks. Please be careful in what you post and how you post it.

If the Bible affirms that Jesus has already redeemed this creation then demonstrate it. Give scriptural proof and practical evidence of a redeemed creation. I would very much like to see it.

BTW, I would prefer Lassie's company to yours -- here and in the new world to come.

I doubt if you will get your wish. Lassie died a long time ago. If you study Genesis chapters one and two you will find out that animals were created with souls, but not spirits. But man was made in the image and likeness of God. And God breathed into him the breath of life (corresponding to His Spirit) and he became a living soul (the entire person). We, in essence, are spirit beings (like the angels). We are simply clothed "with this earthly tabernacle," which one day we will discard, and put on our heavenly bodies. It is our spirit that goes to be with the Lord when we die. This earthly tabernacle just goes back to dust.
Animals don't have a spirit. They weren't made in the image of God. They have a soul, according to Genesis 1:24, but not a spirit. Both soul and body die when the animal dies.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

And what Scriptural point of mine are you refuting?

If you were debating someone else you would get an infraction for so many personal attacks. Please be careful in what you post and how you post it.

If the Bible affirms that Jesus has already redeemed this creation then demonstrate it. Give scriptural proof and practical evidence of a redeemed creation. I would very much like to see it.

I doubt if you will get your wish. Lassie died a long time ago. If you study Genesis chapters one and two you will find out that animals were created with souls, but not spirits. But man was made in the image and likeness of God. And God breathed into him the breath of life (corresponding to His Spirit) and he became a living soul (the entire person). We, in essence, are spirit beings (like the angels). We are simply clothed "with this earthly tabernacle," which one day we will discard, and put on our heavenly bodies. It is our spirit that goes to be with the Lord when we die. This earthly tabernacle just goes back to dust.
Animals don't have a spirit. They weren't made in the image of God. They have a soul, according to Genesis 1:24, but not a spirit. Both soul and body die when the animal dies.

Do you give yourself that advice? You don't hold yourself, or OldRegular, or your other pals to the same standards that you do me. When I am attacked, slandered, falsely accused, called cultic, a heretic, an apostate, and in effect have my salvation denied, do those who do that get infractions? Do you give your own self an infraction?

I guess what happens here is like what often happens in a football game: The one who responds gets penalized while the initiator gets by with it.

You will not be bothered further with my posts, as I will not defend myself any further where you are concerned. I am well aware of what you think of me and my beliefs. So, you go ahead and post whatever you wish about me, even if it violates forum policy. After all, you can do that and get away with it.

Romans 8:18-23 affirms the redemption of both humans and the creation; that is the clear, irrefutable teaching. What it affirms for us Christians, it affirms for the creation, as well. If you deny that, you deny the Bible. Since that passage proves my point beyond a shadow of a doubt, there is no need to continue.

 

[The Biblicist]

Do you give yourself that advice? You don't hold yourself, or OldRegular, or your other pals to the same standards that you do me. When I am attacked, slandered, falsely accused, called cultic, a heretic, an apostate, and in effect have my salvation denied, do those who do that get infractions? Do you give your own self an infraction?

I guess what happens here is like what often happens in a football game: The one who responds gets penalized while the initiator gets by with it.

You will not be bothered further with my posts, as I will not defend myself any further where you are concerned. I am well aware of what you think of me and my beliefs. So, you go ahead and post whatever you wish about me, even if it violates forum policy. After all, you can do that and get away with it.

Romans 8:18-23 affirms the redemption of both humans and the creation; that is the clear, irrefutable teaching. What it affirms for us Christians, it affirms for the creation, as well. If you deny that, you deny the Bible. Since that passage proves my point beyond a shadow of a doubt, there is no need to continue.

Michael, for once, provide a substantive response to evidence placed before you. Every time evidence is placed before you that proves your position is simply wrong you either make rediculous accusations and then when you are called on your accusations you play the victim instead of honestly addressing the issues. You do this on this thread and every thread you are on.

 

[DHK]

Do you give yourself that advice? You don't hold yourself, or OldRegular, or your other pals to the same standards that you do me. When I am attacked, slandered, falsely accused, called cultic, a heretic, an apostate, and in effect have my salvation denied, do those who do that get infractions? Do you give your own self an infraction?

I guess what happens here is like what often happens in a football game: The one who responds gets penalized while the initiator gets by with it.

You will not be bothered further with my posts, as I will not defend myself any further where you are concerned. I am well aware of what you think of me and my beliefs. So, you go ahead and post whatever you wish about me, even if it violates forum policy. After all, you can do that and get away with it.

This is about you, not about others. One doesn't have to go through the member's list and list the faults of each one. You are the one here that has broken the rules for no apparent reason, and in fact deserve an infraction, which I will keep my word, and not give you.

Forget about the others, and simply answer my post.
Where is the redeemed creation? Show from the Bible how it is NOW redeemed, and give practical evidence that it is. Does the lion lie down with the lamb for example?

Romans 8:18-23 affirms the redemption of both humans and the creation; that is the clear, irrefutable teaching. What it affirms for us Christians, it affirms for the creation, as well. If you deny that, you deny the Bible. Since that passage proves my point beyond a shadow of a doubt, there is no need to continue.

I don't deny the Bible, Michael; I deny your interpretation of it. I have already exegeted it for you, given you a lengthy explanation, and you have not refuted. Why don't you refute my explanation instead of coming back at me with unwarranted personal attacks?

I will only briefly summarize what I have explained in detail. Please re-read my former posts carefully to get a fuller explanation of Romans 8.
Redemption is not a process; it is an event.
If one is not redeemed they are not saved.
Likewise adoption; it is not a process, it is an event. If one is not adopted into the family of God they are not saved.
Both of these events take place at the time of salvation.

The event spoken of in Romans 8:23 is the resurrection. It also gives reference to the Millennial Kingdom.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

We wait for the adoption "to wit" (to know) the redemption of our body.
--It is not speaking of spiritual redemption, but the redemption of our body. That is physical, referring to the resurrection when we obtain our new bodies, immortal bodies, heavenly bodies, etc. It has nothing to do with redemption, per se. It could be translated deliverance. Adoption is a synonym. The Geneva Bible says "waiting for the adoption EVEN the redemption of our bodies."

Concerning the whole creation that groans and travails in pain even until now. It also waits. What for? It will be delivered from this curse when Christ comes a Second time and sets up his Kingdom. At that time the curse, presently on this earth will be removed, and not until then.

If you can show me how this world, with all of its thorns and thistles, has already been redeemed, I welcome your evidence. But until then, my explanation stands. Don't tell me I deny the Bible just because you think your opinion is right and all the world is wrong.