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No Pastors Around Here...
- Thread starter TCGreek
- Start date
"Shepherds" is another word for "pastors" in that they both mean "to have watch over" and the word was also interchangable with overseers and bishops according to the Greek - although each of them denote a seperate function within the body and not offices as commonly understood.
Salamander
New Member
If a pastor is not a shepherd, then what does your Greek say he is?TCGreek said:The ESV has parted ways with the traditional pastors at Eph 4:11,
which by the way is a Latin hangover and not a faithful translation of the Greek.
So I commend the ESV on this bold move.
"And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers."
CubeX said:"Shepherds" is another word for "pastors" in that they both mean "to have watch over" and the word was also interchangable with overseers and bishops according to the Greek - although each of them denote a seperate function within the body and not offices as commonly understood.
"Pastor" is Latin, and "Shepherd" is English.
There's an package behind "Shepherd" that is seen in the OT and carried into the NT.
YHWH is refer to as our Shepherd as well as Messiah (Ps 23:1; John 10:11).
Then we have the play-on words in 1 Peter: the verb form of shepherd, followed by the Chief Shepherd (5:1-4).
"Pastor" is a transliteration and not a translation, quite like "baptism."
Salamander said:If a pastor is not a shepherd, then what does your Greek say he is?
Please, take the time to understand my point. :thumbs:
AntennaFarmer
Member
TCGreek said:"Pastor" is Latin, and "Shepherd" is English.
There's an package behind "Shepherd" that is seen in the OT and carried into the NT.
YHWH is refer to as our Shepherd as well as Messiah (Ps 23:1; John 10:11).
Then we have the play-on words in 1 Peter: the verb form of shepherd, followed by the Chief Shepherd (5:1-4).
"Pastor" is a transliteration and not a translation, quite like "baptism."
Online Etymology Dictionary www.dictionary.com
pastor (n.)
1242, "shepherd," also "spiritual guide, shepherd of souls" (1377), from O.Fr. pastur "herdsman, shepherd" (12c.), from L. pastorem (nom. pastor) "shepherd," from pastus, pp. of pascere "to lead to pasture, graze," from PIE base *pa- "to tend, keep, pasture, feed, guard" (see food). The spiritual sense was in Church L. (cf. Gregory's "Cura Pastoralis"). The verb in the Christian sense is from 1872.
"Pastor" is not a transliteration but a borrowed word. The statute of limitations has run out though. We aren't giving it back......
AntennaFarmer said:Online Etymology Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This
pastor (n.)
1242, "shepherd," also "spiritual guide, shepherd of souls" (1377), from O.Fr. pastur "herdsman, shepherd" (12c.), from L. pastorem (nom. pastor) "shepherd," from pastus, pp. of pascere "to lead to pasture, graze," from PIE base *pa- "to tend, keep, pasture, feed, guard" (see food). The spiritual sense was in Church L. (cf. Gregory's "Cura Pastoralis"). The verb in the Christian sense is from 1872.
"Pastor" is not a transliteration but a borrowed word. The statute of limitations has run out though. We aren't giving it back......
Yes, a borrowed word. Thanks for the correction. I appreciate it.
I should have picked up on that.
Well, I know where " 'episkopE " (Bishop, or overseer) and " presbuteros " (elder) are interchangeable Scripturally and the "function" of that, but I still seem to be having a hard time finding the particular verse(s) where " poimEn " is interchangeable with the other two. Care to enlighten me on where these verses are found?CubeX said:"Shepherds" is another word for "pastors" in that they both mean "to have watch over" and the word was also interchangable with overseers and bishops according to the Greek - although each of them denote a seperate function within the body and not offices as commonly understood.
Personally, I am far less concerned with whether "poimen" is rendered as "shepherd" or "pastor", than I ever am with whether one confutes and/or confuses and/or conflates and/or combines the spiritual gift of pastor/teacher with the office or function of bishop (overseer)/elder.
And I simply find it disingenious, at best, when this is done, especially given that there are no qualifications and restrictions, with the Holy Spirit, in His giving of each and every one of the spiritual gifts to the believer at the point of salvation, except at His sole discretion, and the dozen or so specific restrictions and qualifications for the "church 'offices' ".
How can one state, with a straight face, that there are no differences, here between the "gift" and "office" when one of the specific qualifications for bishop/elder is that one must be "not a novice", and the great majority of the at least 18 specific qualifications for an elder, imply that one must be a somewhat older individual?
I'm not exactly sure who is the specific Greek individual you are citing as an authority, but would suggest he or she study their own language, just a bit more, frankly, especially as concerns the 'gifts' vs. 'offices'. :smilewinkgrin:
Ed
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IMO, the problem with some pastors calling themselves a shepherd, is then they want to call themself an "undershepherd" so that they might lord their authority over their "flock." The term may be biblical, and I doubt there are many on this board who would allow a man to lord his authority over them. But there are many, many in this country who wouldn't know any better.
Salamander
New Member
And there are many goats in the flock who cannot be led but have to be driven.nunatak said:IMO, the problem with some pastors calling themselves a shepherd, is then they want to call themself an "undershepherd" so that they might lord their authority over their "flock." The term may be biblical, and I doubt there are many on this board who would allow a man to lord his authority over them. But there are many, many in this country who wouldn't know any better.
Salamander said:And there are many goats in the flock who cannot be led but have to be driven.
Can goats be of the flock? No true shepherd DRIVES his sheep, only a butcher does that. A true shepherd LEADS.
Salamander said:And there are many goats in the flock who cannot be led but have to be driven.
Goats in the flock are not regenerate , and never will be . At present the wheat( sheep ) and the weeds ( goats ) are together , but they will be separated in the latter times during the Great Harvest .