No pastors in the Bible

[preacher4truth]

How do you get the idea the Timothy was a pastor? Because it is called the pastoral epistles? that tile was assigned in the 18th century. Again, you seem to come with the idea of the pastor as an "office." Where is that in the NT? Elders and deacons...none other. Pastor came after the Reformation! NEver and office in the Bible, if so please show me where that it is.

How do you get the idea he wasn't, because of past regrets?

 

[alvin]

How do you get the idea the Timothy was a pastor? Because it is called the pastoral epistles? that tile was assigned in the 18th century. Again, you seem to come with the idea of the pastor as an "office." Where is that in the NT? Elders and deacons...none other. Pastor came after the Reformation! NEver and office in the Bible, if so please show me where that it is.

The ones who advocate that a "pastor" is an office is proclaimed loudest by those who have the most to lose, or stretch the Bible so much it become preposterous. Elders and deacons, none other. Sorry, but you pastors out there are not just grasping at straws but you do great damage to the church. If you think a pastor is an Elder then say so and join the ranks of your fellow Elders. No special titles, robes, stoles, collars, or seats in high places....an Elder among Elders and nothing else. We know why this is rejected by pastors. Because we love the titles, we love being the "Senior Pastor" we love have the pulpit central and us standing behind it, we love being called the "Clergy" we love being paid to do what we expect others to do for free. What is it a pastor thinks he can do that Elders cannot do?

 

[alvin]

How do you get the idea he wasn't, because of past regrets?

I do not understand your statement. Please clarify. BTW, are you a pastor?

 

[preacher4truth]

The ones who advocate that a "pastor" is an office is proclaimed loudest by those who have the most to lose, or stretch the Bible so much it become preposterous. Elders and deacons, none other. Sorry, but you pastors out there are not just grasping at straws but you do great damage to the church. If you think a pastor is an Elder then say so and join the ranks of your fellow Elders. No special titles, robes, stoles, collars, or seats in high places....an Elder among Elders and nothing else. We know why this is rejected by pastors. Because we love the titles, we love being the "Senior Pastor" we love have the pulpit central and us standing behind it, we love being called the "Clergy" we love being paid to do what we expect others to do for free. What is it a pastor thinks he can do that Elders cannot do?

Hello alvin,

I must say this, as it is quite apparent, that you are bitter over this issue. At the same time you malign all who believe in this scriptural office. In addition you have no answer for the small church where perhaps one pastoral office is sufficient.

You're struggling with regrets in regards to this office.

 

[alvin]

Hello alvin,

I must say this, as it is quite apparent, that you are bitter over this issue. At the same time you malign all who believe in this scriptural office. In addition you have no answer for the small church where perhaps one pastoral office is sufficient.

You're struggling with regrets in regards to this office.

Again, you refer to the "Pastoral office" what office do you refer to? Are you saying somewhere in the Bible there is a office called the office of the pastor? If so please let us all know where you find such an office. Please. It is difficult to even think of such words to respond to such claims for they are patently false with no biblical support. Again, pastors have supplanted the Elders of the Church and they wish everyone to believe it is their authority to do even when there is ample evidence to the contrary. Do we not believe God? Do we not fear judgment? How can we say the Bible is the inspired Word of the Divine and then do as we please?

 

[alvin]

Again, you refer to the "Pastoral office" what office do you refer to? Are you saying somewhere in the Bible there is a office called the office of the pastor? If so please let us all know where you find such an office. Please. It is difficult to even think of such words to respond to such claims for they are patently false with no biblical support. Again, pastors have supplanted the Elders of the Church and they wish everyone to believe it is their authority to do even when there is ample evidence to the contrary. Do we not believe God? Do we not fear judgment? How can we say the Bible is the inspired Word of the Divine and then do as we please?

Preacher4Truth, are you a pastor? Is this not a fair question?

 

[alvin]

Preacher4Truth, are you a pastor? Is this not a fair question?

I ask Revmichel if he was a pastor and he did not respond. AS I have said, it is the pastors that have much to lose and the church everything to gain by restoring the Elders.

 

[Revmitchell]

See folks this is the problem with this type of mentality. They cannot be consistent. If you are going to hold that what was practiced in the 1st century sets up presidence for the only way to do things then you need to be consistent straight across the board.

Of course folks like this are not willing to sell all that they have and hold all things common, since that is something they practiced in the 1st century church. They cherry pick what they want to hold to and ignore the rest of 1st century practices.

And again.................

 

[Salty]

Alvin -
It appears you have made up your mind on this issue. IMHO, you are simply seeking folks to agree with you. In addition, you have sidestepped some of the questions asked of you.

It appears we are going nowhere.

So now this thread is going in the same group of the "Sabbath Day" discussions. That is the group that I no longer view.

Salty

PS, it really is hard to believe that 100% of your church was in total agreement. Yes, I know you said it was a 100% vote (it wasn't by secret ballot was it) I have seen some church votes and there are folks who don't want to rock the boat and vote with the majority. Did that happen, possible.

 

[Revmitchell]

I ask Revmichel if he was a pastor and he did not respond. AS I have said, it is the pastors that have much to lose and the church everything to gain by restoring the Elders.

I asked you if you have sold all things and have all things in common in your church.

 

[alvin]

I asked you if you have sold all things and have all things in common in your church.

If you are a pastor be not ashamed of admitting the fact. If you are a pastor then I ask you, where are your Elders, or was Paul just kidding? This is my point, we claim to our congregations the Bible is true and reliable and then we ignore the most simple and basic parts. SHoe me anywhere in the Bible the "office" of the pastor is legitimate office. We know the Elder and Deacon are the only two offices, and we know a Elder is the overseer and shepherd of the Churh and you have replaced that which the Holy Spirit has ordained. How can you defend you action with such questions as "have I sold all things and hold them in common." Do you not understand the gravity of this matter? I for one would not look forward to standing in judgement as one who removed the Elders ordained by the Spirit and claimed title to their position.

 

[Revmitchell]

If you are a pastor be not ashamed of admitting the fact. If you are a pastor then I ask you, where are your Elders, or was Paul just kidding? This is my point, we claim to our congregations the Bible is true and reliable and then we ignore the most simple and basic parts. SHoe me anywhere in the Bible the "office" of the pastor is legitimate office. We know the Elder and Deacon are the only two offices, and we know a Elder is the overseer and shepherd of the Churh and you have replaced that which the Holy Spirit has ordained. How can you defend you action with such questions as "have I sold all things and hold them in common." Do you not understand the gravity of this matter? I for one would not look forward to standing in judgement as one who removed the Elders ordained by the Spirit and claimed title to their position.

Ok still no answer to my question. It is apparent you cannot defend your inconsistency. I will leave you to your misery.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Wow, if the OP is true there would be no missionaries planting churches.

And yes- I am a pastor, unashamedly. I am an undershepherd of the Lord Jesus, called to pastor his people in this flock. I wear the title humbly, soberly, and gratefully.

I am not against elder rule, but most small churches do not have enough qualified men to have more than one elder.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

If you are a pastor be not ashamed of admitting the fact. If you are a pastor then I ask you, where are your Elders, or was Paul just kidding? This is my point, we claim to our congregations the Bible is true and reliable and then we ignore the most simple and basic parts. SHoe me anywhere in the Bible the "office" of the pastor is legitimate office. We know the Elder and Deacon are the only two offices, and we know a Elder is the overseer and shepherd of the Churh and you have replaced that which the Holy Spirit has ordained. How can you defend you action with such questions as "have I sold all things and hold them in common." Do you not understand the gravity of this matter? I for one would not look forward to standing in judgement as one who removed the Elders ordained by the Spirit and claimed title to their position.

What you apparently fail to realize is that "elder" and "pastor" in the NT are synonymous terms for the same office, and added to that are "bishop", "presbyter", "overseer". All of these are synonymous terms used interchangeably.

 

[HankD]

Search the entire NT and tell me one instance where ποιμένας is translated as pastor. We all know pastor is an office in our churches, show me anywhere where the pastor is an office. There are two offices and that of Elder and Deacon.

This is possibly due to the translators (KJV and others) of the NT because of the influence of the Septuagint (LXX) where the Greek translation of the Hebrew word raw'aw (shepherd) is often translated as ποιμένας being of the same root as in Ephesians 4:11.

Jeremiah 23:1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.​

HankD

 

[alvin]

Ok still no answer to my question. It is apparent you cannot defend your inconsistency. I will leave you to your misery.

No we do not hold all things in common. That said perhaps you can now answer my question if you are a pastor. I can understand your anti-biblical stance if you are a pastor defending your position of authority and livelihood, but it is difficult to believe anyone would reject their Bible and accept the teaching of someone who contravenes the very work of the Holy Spirit. Churches returning the Elders to their place causes fear among all pastors who fear losing their livelihood and the prospect of going out in the world, like everyone else in their congregation, and finding employment. As I said, ego is the what keeps pastors in place and Elders out of theirs. If Paul or Peter were to visit our churches today they would ask, "where are your Elders?" How would you answer them? Simple question.

 

[Revmitchell]

No we do not hold all things in common.

Then according to your use of scripture your church is not biblical. Why is that?

Who ever taught you that the way to interpret scripture was to determine exactly how they did it in the early church and that determines exactly how we must do it today with no variation. Where did you learn that kind of interpretation?

 

[Mexdeaf]

No we do not hold all things in common. That said perhaps you can now answer my question if you are a pastor. I can understand your anti-biblical stance if you are a pastor defending your position of authority and livelihood, but it is difficult to believe anyone would reject their Bible and accept the teaching of someone who contravenes the very work of the Holy Spirit. Churches returning the Elders to their place causes fear among all pastors who fear losing their livelihood and the prospect of going out in the world, like everyone else in their congregation, and finding employment. As I said, ego is the what keeps pastors in place and Elders out of theirs. If Paul or Peter were to visit our churches today they would ask, "where are your Elders?" How would you answer them? Simple question.

To call belief in the office of Pastor "anti-biblical" is a stretch. But you have already stretched the truth to fit your own conclusions.

There is nothing sinful or egotistic about taking a salary as a pastor. Paul would ask you where you got that silly idea.

 

[Revmitchell]

1 Timothy 5:18


17Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially they who labor in the word and doctrine. 18For the scripture said, You shall not muzzle the ox that treads out the corn. And, The laborer is worthy of his reward.

And again.....................

 

[alvin]

What you apparently fail to realize is that "elder" and "pastor" in the NT are synonymous terms for the same office, and added to that are "bishop", "presbyter", "overseer". All of these are synonymous terms used interchangeably.

Where is the word pastor and elder used interchangeably? You are not even close. In the NT there are only Elders, the ONLY word with this is Overseer. If you are saying a pastor is the modern day equivalent of an Elder then I ask: Why do you not call yourself an Elder and where are the rest of your Elders? You know very well the word pastor, like the word bishop is nowhere in the NT. Pastor certainly is not an "office" and certainly is not synonymous with anything in the NT. THe pastor has replace the Elders in the church and the Elders were instituted by the Holy Spirit. By what authority has this substitution occurred?