No prolonged debate with heretics??

[The Biblicist]

THIS IS ABOUT SOMEONE WHO ALREADY BELIEVES IN GOD AND WANTS GOD TO CHANGE HIM. The Bible does not say God indwells people to cause them to believe.

Are you telling us that a lost person has more ability than a believer to change themselves? A believer has God, has a new nature and yet with all that they cannot change themselves but a lost person who has no new nature, no God can change themselves??????????? Are you telling us that God must work in a believer both "to will" and "to do" but a lost man can do all this without God?????????

I easily prove it with scripture.

Matthew 10:6
Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

Matthew 15:24
He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

You haven't proved anything. All you have shown is that the IMMEDIATE mission of Christ was to Israel! You have not proved he came to them with ANOTHER GOSPEL! You have not prove there is ANOTHER WAY of salvation for Jews than Gentiles! You have not proved there is any other gospel of salvation but ONE and the SAME ONE preached before and after the cross (John 14:6; Acts 4:12, 10:43; etc.). You have only proved you know absolutely nothing you are talking about!

Acts 3:26 When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways."

Who did the turning and who was being turned???

Romans 15:8 For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs

- Here is the promises made to the patriarchs (Lk. 24:25-27; 43-46; Acts 10:43; 26:22-23).

You are the one preaching another gospel.

Explain to us Hebrew 4:2 and the words "THE GOSPEL" which was preached unto the Jews before the cross that is preached "unto us" after the cross without saying it is TWO different gospels?? I will await your explanation!

 

[Moriah]

Are you telling us that a lost person has more ability than a believer to change themselves?

If the lost person hears the gospel, believes, and obeys, then he could possibly change more than a person who claims to be a Christian but who is practicing sin.

A believer has God, has a new nature and yet with all that they cannot change themselves but a lost person who has no new nature, no God can change themselves??????????? Are you telling us that God must work in a believer both "to will" and "to do" but a lost man can do all this without God?????????

God opens the eyes of believers. A person is normally saved that way. God reveals Himself to those who love Him. That is what the Bible says.

You haven't proved anything. All you have shown is that the IMMEDIATE mission of Christ was to Israel! You have not proved he came to them with ANOTHER GOSPEL!

You are the one with the other gospel! I have proven that Jesus came for the Jews first and not just any Jews, the lost sheep of Israel. The lost sheep of Israel are Jews; they are the Jews who loved God.

You have not prove there is ANOTHER WAY of salvation for Jews than Gentiles! You have not proved there is any other gospel of salvation but ONE and the SAME ONE preached before and after the cross (John 14:6; Acts 4:12, 10:43; etc.). You have only proved you know absolutely nothing you are talking about!

Stop saying there is another way of salvation. I have proven that Jesus came first for the lost sheep of Israel, and that while Jesus was on earth, that is whom he ministered to. Even though the scriptures tells us of a maybe a couple non-Jews who were healed, that does not mean that they could at that time be reconciled to God. It was only after Jesus was lifted up that all men could come to him.

Explain to us Hebrew 4:2 and the words "THE GOSPEL" which was preached unto the Jews before the cross that is preached "unto us" after the cross without saying it is TWO different gospels?? I will await your explanation!

There are not two different gospels. The Gentiles were NOT reconciled unto God until God allowed it to happen, and that was after Peter’s vision.

 

[DHK]

I never said man did not have a depraved nature. I said TOTAL depravity, as taught by the reformed group is NOT biblical.

As taught by most who call themselves "Reformed," the Calvinist teaching is properly called "Total Inability," which I do not believe either.

One of your problems is that you wrongly assume that I am a Calvinist. I am not. But I do believe in the depravity of man. However, the way that I have read your posts you seem to have taken a position that denies the depravity of man. Thus I ask you to define "depravity of man."

I have spent an entire thread arguing against you:
My position is that the unsaved man can do nothing good in the sight of God to merit heaven. You say that is wrong. You disagree. You obviously don't believe in the depravity of man.

 

[Moriah]

As taught by most who call themselves "Reformed," the Calvinist teaching is properly called "Total Inability," which I do not believe either.

From what you say to me, you do basically believe in total depravity.

One of your problems is that you wrongly assume that I am a Calvinist.

You are wrong. I did not assume you were a Calvinist.

I am not. But I do believe in the depravity of man.

You believe in the total depravity of man, since you have said that man cannot do anything that Jesus says to do.

However, the way that I have read your posts you seem to have taken a position that denies the depravity of man.

You should be more careful in how you read my posts.

Thus I ask you to define "depravity of man."

Man is weak in the flesh and sins. We are from the womb inclined to negativity and thus sin. Man does not understand the things of God, until God opens his eyes. God opens the eyes of those who love Him. We cannot overcome this world unless we have faith in Jesus. Without Jesus, a man can stop sins here and there, but without Jesus, demons take residence and bring more than there was before. However, when a person hears the Word, and does what Jesus teaches, Jesus will give them the Holy Spirit.

I have spent an entire thread arguing against you:
My position is that the unsaved man can do nothing good in the sight of God to merit heaven.

Except come to Him through His Word!

You say that is wrong. You disagree. You obviously don't believe in the depravity of man.

The position I hear from you is that the unsaved man cannot hear commands of Jesus and do them. That is not biblical. What I hear from you is that it is normal for Christians to sin, and that a person can be saved and remain saved by only believing, that sinning or not has nothing to do with their salvation.

 

[DHK]

From what you say to me, you do basically believe in total depravity.

No, every man has a sin nature inherited from Adam called the Adamic nature. It is passed down from generation to generation. But that does not prohibit him from making choices. It is far different than the Total Inability that the typical Calvinist teaches.

You are wrong. I did not assume you were a Calvinist.

Then don't lump me in with them.

You believe in the total depravity of man, since you have said that man cannot do anything that Jesus says to do.

He can't.

You should be more careful in how you read my posts.

You should be more clear in what you post.

Man is weak in the flesh and sins. We are from the womb inclined to negativity and thus sin. Man does not understand the things of God, until God opens his eyes. God opens the eyes of those who love Him. We cannot overcome this world unless we have faith in Jesus. Without Jesus, a man can stop sins here and there, but without Jesus, demons take residence and bring more than there was before. However, when a person hears the Word, and does what Jesus teaches, Jesus will give them the Holy Spirit.

And how do you support this view or opinion of depravity from the Word of God. If God opens the eyes of those that love him, how can a man love him just at random when he is unsaved and blinded to the truth?

Except come to Him through His Word!

This is a demonstration of how it is impossible to carry on an intelligent conversation with you. It is impossible for a man to do good and by doing so merit heaven. There was the premise. The argument went back and forth for pages. Man cannot do good, cannot do anything good in the sight of God. All are as filthy rags to him.
But now you come out with this bombshell: "Except come to him through His Word." But that is not what we were talking about!!
And that kind of thing makes it impossible to carry on a conversation with you.

The position I hear from you is that the unsaved man cannot hear commands of Jesus and do them.

That is correct. He is blind to the truth. Everything he does is an abomination to God.

That is not biblical. What I hear from you is that it is normal for Christians to sin,

It is normal because we are sinners. But we must still take responsibility and confess our sins to restore our fellowship. God did not inspire such Scripture as 1John 1:9 for the good of God's health, but rather for the good of our spiritual health.

and that a person can be saved and remain saved by only believing,

For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves. It is not of works.
Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.
--I believe what the Bible teaches, don't you?

that sinning or not has nothing to do with their salvation.

It doesn't. It has much to do with our walk with God, not our salvation.
My life is secure in the hand of God. He said I will never perish. I will never lose my salvation. I am in his family, born into it; he will never cast me out. I am sorry you don't believe in the promises of God.

 

[steaver]

The only value I see in this type of forum is to expose the agents and the doctrine of error so that those trying to learn the truth will not be led astray.

Let me ask you a question brother, how is a Christian harmed one way or the other, either by believing or not believing in irresistable grace?

Does this "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" argument add any value at all to the Christian's walk of faith?

I for one do not believe in irresistable grace, yet I fully believe that it is by grace through faith that I am saved and not of myself. And I am humbly grateful for God's mercy in calling me unto Himself. I have no boast, no pride in myself for believing on Jesus Christ, so what would you have me to gain by believing in irresistable grace?

These topics when debated have been and are PACKED FULL of SIN. Brothers insulting brothers, calling each other liars and heritics, even calling into question another's salvation in Christ. Just because they do not agree on which came first, the chicken or the egg.

While people boast of following God's Word and rightly dividing God's Word, they spew out venom towards their very on kin in Christ. They totally ignore Jesus on the teaching of loving one another and edifying one another. Some even boast of their sinlessness all the while they break God's commands to do EVERYTHING in LOVE towards ALL men but especially their brethren.

I hate to think what non-believers think of us after looking in and reading our Christian rhetoric.

Lord forgive us!

 

[The Biblicist]

Let me ask you a question brother, how is a Christian harmed one way or the other, either by believing or not believing in irresistable grace?

Ones salvation is not harmed. You are not saved by how much theology you understand and believe but whether or not you are trusting in the sufficiency of Christ to save you from sin.

Does this "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" argument add any value at all to the Christian's walk of faith?

Yes. Jesus said "without me ye can do NOTHING." If a believer can do "nothing" to progress his salvation then how can an unbeliever do something to obtain his salvation. Jesus plain said that no man "can" come to him except the Father draw him. The value is that it affects your witnessing and your walk. It affects your witness by removing guilt for not having the right argument or being convincing enough. It affects your witness because it gives assurance that God has an elect who will come to Christ through sharing the gospel. It affects your witness because it makes you more dependent upon the grace and power of God to witness. It affects your walk because it reinforces that you are dependent upon his grace and you can do "nothing" apart from that dependency. It affects your theology because it rules out works altogether in the conversion of the elect.

These topics when debated have been and are PACKED FULL of SIN. Brothers insulting brothers, calling each other liars and heritics, even calling into question another's salvation in Christ. Just because they do not agree on which came first, the chicken or the egg.

DHK and I do not agree on this and yet I do not call him a heretic or insult him. Those who at least beleive in justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone without works are on the same side. However, where the heresies and intensity comes in is dealing with those who reject justfication by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone withouot works. SGM, HP, Moriah and some others are of this ilk.

It is proper to "mark" such (Romans 16:17). The term "mark" translates the Greek term "scopeo" and means visibly identify, critically examine, expose and keep an eye on them.

Love does not rejoice in iniquity but in righteousness and there is a place for reproving, sharply rebuking, condemning and withdrawing from such. What Jesus did in Matthew 23 was perfectly consistent with love. I think some define "love" differently than the scriptures. Have you heard of "tough" love or sloppy agape?

 

[Moriah]

No, every man has a sin nature inherited from Adam called the Adamic nature. It is passed down from generation to generation. But that does not prohibit him from making choices. It is far different than the Total Inability that the typical Calvinist teaches.

If you believe man is blind unless God supernaturally causes him to believe, then you believe in the same total depravity as the Calvinists.

He can't.

Then, like I said before, you believe in the T of the Tulip.

You should be more clear in what you post.

I am clear.

If God opens the eyes of those that love him, how can a man love him just at random when he is unsaved and blinded to the truth?

When a man hears the gospel of Jesus, and learns of him that is how. There is the message that saves. Faith comes from hearing.

This is a demonstration of how it is impossible to carry on an intelligent conversation with you.

I could come with better cut downs than you could, but I choose to obey Jesus.

It is impossible for a man to do good and by doing so merit heaven. There was the premise. The argument went back and forth for pages. Man cannot do good, cannot do anything good in the sight of God. All are as filthy rags to him.

You are hanging on to the filthy rags misunderstanding that your teachers have been saying for years. I guess it is hard to break from such ingrained falseness. It is not a filthy rag to seek God through Jesus, or to read the teachings of Jesus and try to do them.

But now you come out with this bombshell: "Except come to him through His Word." But that is not what we were talking about!!
And that kind of thing makes it impossible to carry on a conversation with you.

For you to teach that a person is who gets the teachings of Jesus and tries to do them is as a filthy rag is ludicrous.

That is correct. He is blind to the truth. Everything he does is an abomination to God.

Again, hearing the gospel of Jesus, getting Jesus’ teachings and trying to do them is not an abomination to God. You do not see how much error you are in yourself and teaching others.

It is normal because we are sinners. But we must still take responsibility and confess our sins to restore our fellowship.

It is not normal for a Christian to sin.

For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves. It is not of works.

No one made a bunch of houses for the homeless and convinced God to save them. No one took twenty baptisms and convinced God to save them.

--I believe what the Bible teaches, don't you?

I sure do.

It doesn't. It has much to do with our walk with God, not our salvation.

That is not biblical.

My life is secure in the hand of God. He said I will never perish. I will never lose my salvation. I am in his family, born into it; he will never cast me out. I am sorry you don't believe in the promises of God.

I am sure of my salvation. I prove my salvation, just as the word of God says to do.

 

[steaver]

Yes. Jesus said "without me ye can do NOTHING." If a believer can do "nothing" to progress his salvation then how can an unbeliever do something to obtain his salvation. Jesus plain said that no man "can" come to him except the Father draw him.

The Father must draw, the HolySpirit must convict, the person being drawn and convicted must CHOOSE.

That person cannot CHOOSE unless God is in it, drawing and convicting. So, yes, a person cannot find salvation without God's help. Christ has the preeminence in ALL things.

The value is that it affects your witnessing and your walk. It affects your witness by removing guilt for not having the right argument or being convincing enough. It affects your witness because it gives assurance that God has an elect who will come to Christ through sharing the gospel. It affects your witness because it makes you more dependent upon the grace and power of God to witness. It affects your walk because it reinforces that you are dependent upon his grace and you can do "nothing" apart from that dependency. It affects your theology because it rules out works altogether in the conversion of the elect.

I need no "right" argument, I only need to preach the gospel.

I need not be "convincing enough", I only need to preach the gospel. One plants the seed, another waters, God gives the increase.

I already know God has an elect who will come to Christ, changes nothing in my witness.

I depend TOTALLY on the grace and power of God to witness, thus, this argument is not applicable to me.

My daily walk is by the grace of God and I depend solely on God. I can do NOTHING apart from Jesus Christ. Again, your argument here does not apply to me, and I do not accept irresistable grace.

My theology does not preach any works when delivering the gospel message, for by grace are ye saved through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is a GIFT, not of works. Again, this argument cannot apply to me, and I do not accept irresistable grace.

There is NOTHING (or no good work) I can do apart from Jesus Christ. And there is NOTHING to be added to my walk with God by accepting the doctrine of irresistable grace.

In much of your post you have judged incorrectly a person's walk and witnessing if one does not accept your pov on TULIP.

 

[DHK]

If you believe man is blind unless God supernaturally causes him to believe, then you believe in the same total depravity as the Calvinists.

No, I don't believe that. But you didn't answer my post, you evaded it.
Here is what I said:

No, every man has a sin nature inherited from Adam called the Adamic nature. It is passed down from generation to generation. But that does not prohibit him from making choices. It is far different than the Total Inability that the typical Calvinist teaches.

But your answer has nothing to do with what I said does it? You didn't even answer it. Again I do not believe the Total Inability of the Calvinist.

Then, like I said before, you believe in the T of the Tulip.

I just told you I didn't, which tells me that you don't understand TULIP at all. But that is a given, since the way that you describe depravity isn't depravity. I don't believe that you do believe in the depravity of man.
Man cannot do good in and of himself. He is depraved. How can he do good, any good that will please God? He cannot!

I am clear.

Just like mud.

When a man hears the gospel of Jesus, and learns of him that is how. There is the message that saves. Faith comes from hearing.

You don't answer questions; you evade them, and turn to another subject. It seems to be your MO.
Here was the question that was asked. How can an unsaved person love God, seeing that he is still unsaved and carnal? He can't. Your answer is based on a premise that he is getting saved, which is not what the question is asking. An unsaved person, a carnal man that hates God cannot love God. Period!

I could come with better cut downs than you could, but I choose to obey Jesus.

It wasn't a cut down. I will say it again however. The above was another demonstration how it is impossible to carry on an intelligent conversation with you because you can't keep on topic. You keep evading questions and turning to other subjects.

You are hanging on to the filthy rags misunderstanding that your teachers have been saying for years. I guess it is hard to break from such ingrained falseness. It is not a filthy rag to seek God through Jesus, or to read the teachings of Jesus and try to do them.

"All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags." The expression is a timeless truth. It is true in every generation and applicable to every person whose works do not glorify God. It starts with the unsaved. All his works are as filthy rags, but yours are too, if they do not glorify God. Remember that. God doesn't want filthy rags. It is a good illustration. Isaiah was a poet and used many figures of speech. They are not unlawful for us to use. The filthy rag is speaking of the works of an unsaved person who tries to reach God through his own way--his own righteousness.

For you to teach that a person is who gets the teachings of Jesus and tries to do them is as a filthy rag is ludicrous.

I didn't say that. It is a sin to slander a person isn't it. So you are the person that believes that Christians like yourself can make it a practice of sinning every day by misrepresenting what people say. Every day you come to this board and sin. You practice sin daily. It is normal for you to sin isn't it?

Again, hearing the gospel of Jesus, getting Jesus’ teachings and trying to do them is not an abomination to God. You do not see how much error you are in yourself and teaching others.

But we weren't talking of the gospel of Jesus. You can't carry on a decent conversation without straying off topic. Here is what I said:

That is correct. He is blind to the truth. Everything he does is an abomination to God.

We were not talking about people coming to Christ, hearing the gospel, etc. We were discussing the nature of the unsaved man. Everything the unsaved man does is an abomination to God. He cannot do good in the sight of God. There is nothing he can do to merit heaven.
We were not discussing about people listening to the gospel.

It is not normal for a Christian to sin.

Then why do you do it?

No one made a bunch of houses for the homeless and convinced God to save them. No one took twenty baptisms and convinced God to save them.

I quoted Eph.2:8,9, and the above is the answer you gave?? Where did that come from. For by grace are ye saved, and then you start talking of building houses and baptizing.
It is difficult to carry on a conversation with you.

That is not biblical.

You believe what you want. I believe in eternal security, and if I sin I will not lose my salvation. You live in fear that you will.

I am sure of my salvation. I prove my salvation, just as the word of God says to do.

And how are you going to "prove" your salvation?

 

[Moriah]

No, I don't believe that. But you didn't answer my post, you evaded it.

You said you believe a person can do nothing to please God, THAT IS TOTAL DEPRAVITY. If people can do nothing to please God, then that person cannot even believe in God on their own after learning of Jesus. THAT IS TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

But your answer has nothing to do with what I said does it? You didn't even answer it. Again I do not believe the Total Inability of the Calvinist.

You can deny all you want that you do not believe in total depravity as the Calvinists do, but the fact remains that you do.

Man cannot do good in and of himself. He is depraved. How can he do good, any good that will please God? He cannot!

When the man hears the powerful, truthful Word of God, and believes, that is how a man can do what God says. When the man hears the powerful Word of God, and does what Jesus says, that is how a man can do what God says. Those things please God when we believe and obey His Son.

Here was the question that was asked. How can an unsaved person love God, seeing that he is still unsaved and carnal? He can't. Your answer is based on a premise that he is getting saved, which is not what the question is asking. An unsaved person, a carnal man that hates God cannot love God. Period!

What silly rules are you making for this discussion that I cannot tell you how an unsaved person loves God? Again, when the unsaved person hears the gospel of Jesus, gets Jesus’ teachings, and does what Jesus says to do, that is how the unsaved person loves God. Of course, God gives His Spirit to someone who does those things.

"All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags." The expression is a timeless truth. It is true in every generation and applicable to every person whose works do not glorify God. It starts with the unsaved.

The scripture about filthy rags were to the Jews. That scripture is not to people wanting to be saved, nor is that scripture to saved Christians, unless the saved Christian is not obeying God but instead, living in sin.

The filthy rag is speaking of the works of an unsaved person who tries to reach God through his own way--his own righteousness.

The scripture that speaks of filthy rags is not to the works of the unsaved person, but to the Jews who kept sinning against God.

Here is what I said:
That is correct. He is blind to the truth. Everything he does is an abomination to God.We were not talking about people coming to Christ, hearing the gospel, etc. We were discussing the nature of the unsaved man. Everything the unsaved man does is an abomination to God. He cannot do good in the sight of God. There is nothing he can do to merit heaven. We were not discussing about people listening to the gospel.

You are wrong. We were talking about the person coming to Christ. You said a person coming to Christ could do nothing Jesus says to do.

We were not discussing about people listening to the gospel.
I quoted Eph.2:8,9, and the above is the answer you gave?? Where did that come from. For by grace are ye saved, and then you start talking of building houses and baptizing.

The Jews had the works of the law. They had to do circumcisions. They had to do various ceremonial washings on themselves and in the earthly temple. They had to offer sin offerings and gift offerings. They had to observe special days, seasons, and years. They had to go to a priest to confess their sins. They had to do all these things and more, just to worship God. We do not have to do those things, nor any works to be saved.
Works do not save us. We are no longer saved by works, as the Jews once were.
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

You believe what you want. I believe in eternal security, and if I sin I will not lose my salvation.

You said you believe to sin or not to sin has nothing to do with your salvation. That is not biblical. How do you eat the flesh of Jesus if you do not obey His words? Matthew 4:4 Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'“ James 1:22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.
Luke 6:46 "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?
Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

And how are you going to "prove" your salvation?

The Bible tells me how.

 

[DHK]

You said you believe a person can do nothing to please God, THAT IS TOTAL DEPRAVITY. If people can do nothing to please God, then that person cannot even believe in God on their own after learning of Jesus. THAT IS TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

No it isn't. The Calvinist defines Total Depravity as Total Inability, which not only says a person cannot do anything good, but denies any individual of making a free choice. I don't believe that. Since you are unable to see the difference you don't know much about Calvinism.

You can deny all you want that you do not believe in total depravity as the Calvinists do, but the fact remains that you do.

And that would be slander based on your ignorance.

When the man hears the powerful, truthful Word of God, and believes, that is how a man can do what God says. When the man hears the powerful Word of God, and does what Jesus says, that is how a man can do what God says. Those things please God when we believe and obey His Son.

Why is it difficult to carry on a conversation with you? Because you won't stay on topic. That is not what I was talking about was it? Why not answer the post? In not answering the post you are simply being deceitful. Here is what I posted, that your above answer supposedly answers.

Man cannot do good in and of himself. He is depraved. How can he do good, any good that will please God? He cannot!

That is what I said. It speaks about the depravity of man; how he cannot do good to please God in his unsaved state. But you started talking about salvation. That is off topic. I wasn't talking about salvation, was I? Stay on topic and have an intelligent conversation.

What silly rules are you making for this discussion that I cannot tell you how an unsaved person loves God? Again, when the unsaved person hears the gospel of Jesus, gets Jesus’ teachings, and does what Jesus says to do, that is how the unsaved person loves God. Of course, God gives His Spirit to someone who does those things.

You do the same thing again. An unsaved person cannot love God. That was the topic. Then you call it silly rules of discussion for you to change the topic. If the topic is, what are the top speeds race cars reach, and you start talking about how often dogs chase cats, how much do you think you will add to the conversation? Stay with the topic!!!! I wasn't speaking of salvation. An unsaved person cannot love God no matter how hard he tries. That is a given. That is what the Bible teaches.

The scripture about filthy rags were to the Jews. That scripture is not to people wanting to be saved, nor is that scripture to saved Christians, unless the saved Christian is not obeying God but instead, living in sin.

That is like saying the Ten Commandments were given to the Jews, therefore it is alright to go and disobey them now. They are no more relevant. Is that what you will do? Go and commit adultery because it is one of the Ten Commandments, given to the Jews, and not relevant for us today. That is your logic here. The verse is relevant for us today because good works that try to please God are like filthy rags for the unsaved. A man's righteousness cannot please God. Jesus said: "Unless your righteousness exceed the righteousness of a Pharisee you cannot enter the kingdom of God. Why? Because your own righteousnesses are as filthy rags.

The scripture that speaks of filthy rags is not to the works of the unsaved person, but to the Jews who kept sinning against God.

To all who think that their righteousness will please God. It won't.

You are wrong. We were talking about the person coming to Christ. You said a person coming to Christ could do nothing Jesus says to do.

No, I wasn't. You keep wanting to change the topic. Here is what I said:

He is blind to the truth. Everything he does is an abomination to God.

I wasn't talking about a man coming to Christ. The unsaved man is blind to the truth of God. Everything he does, as far as meriting heaven is an abomination to God.

The Jews had the works of the law. They had to do circumcisions. They had to do various ceremonial washings on themselves and in the earthly temple. They had to offer sin offerings and gift offerings. They had to observe special days, seasons, and years. They had to go to a priest to confess their sins. They had to do all these things and more, just to worship God. We do not have to do those things, nor any works to be saved.

Every religion has their own works. They might be keeping the Ten Commandments. They might be keeping the Tradition of the Church. They might be the rules that the church has set out for them. Works do not save. Only Christ can save you.

Works do not save us. We are no longer saved by works, as the Jews once were.
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Abraham was saved by faith the same way we are. Romans 4:1-5.

You said you believe to sin or not to sin has nothing to do with your salvation. That is not biblical. How do you eat the flesh of Jesus if you do not obey His words? Matthew 4:4 Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'“ James 1:22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.

Why do you use Scripture addressed to Christians for salvation.
Ye do err not knowing the Scripture neither the power of God.

Luke 6:46 "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?
Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

The Bible tells me how.

You do not use the Bible correctly. You have not posted verses related to salvation. It seems that you do not know what salvation is.

 

[Moriah]

No it isn't. The Calvinist defines Total Depravity as Total Inability, which not only says a person cannot do anything good, but denies any individual of making a free choice. I don't believe that. Since you are unable to see the difference you don't know much about Calvinism.

I gave the correct definition of total depravity as believed by Calvinists. Googling can easily prove it. If the reader is interested, one can go to Total Depravity in Wikipedia, they have a thorough explanation. Another option would be to Google what does TULIP stand for. Read the definition of ‘T’.

Why is it difficult to carry on a conversation with you? That is not what I was talking about was it? Why not answer the post? Here is what I posted, that your above answer supposedly answers.
Man cannot do good in and of himself. He is depraved. How can he do good, any good that will please God? He cannot! That is what I said. It speaks about the depravity of man; how he cannot do good to please God in his unsaved state. But you started talking about salvation. That is off topic. I wasn't talking about salvation, was I? Stay on topic and have an intelligent conversation.

The reason you cannot see that I gave you the correct answer, is because you adhere to the false beliefs of total depravity. Let me try to explain it to you again. When the UNSAVED man, the man who has NOT come into salvation, when he hears the gospel of Jesus Christ, he then is hearing the Truth, the powerful Word of God. Truth has now come to the man. Let us say the man did not believe right away, but keeps thinking of what he heard, so then he decides to get a Bible and get Jesus’ teachings. Then, the man decides he will believe and not doubt that what he reads is true, so he begins to do what Jesus says. Jesus says that the one who gets his teachings and does them is the one, who loves him, and he will love him and the Father and he will make their home with him. There is also a time of testing one goes through, there is the chance that one can give up, but the one who gets forceful and not give up no matter what, he will have the kingdom of heaven. I can give scripture for everything.

An unsaved person cannot love God. That was the topic. Then you call it silly rules of discussion for you to change the topic. If the topic is, what are the top speeds race cars reach, and you start talking about how often dogs chase cats, how much do you think you will add to the conversation? Stay with the topic!!!! I wasn't speaking of salvation. An unsaved person cannot love God no matter how hard he tries. That is a given. That is what the Bible teaches.

An unsaved person can love God that is when Jesus will save him. For you to say I change the topic, and that I cannot use certain scriptures, etc., is your effort to suppress the truth, whether you are conscious of that fact or not, that is what it amounts to being. Your beliefs that an unsaved person cannot love God, even after hearing the powerful Word of God, is called total depravity, and it is a false belief.
You say the Bible teaches an unsaved person cannot love God, but I tell you, nowhere in the Bible does is say that all men are born totally depraved to where they cannot hear the gospel and believe. In fact, THAT IS HOW THE BIBLE SAYS WE COME TO BELIEVE THE TRUTH, BY HEARING THE WORD OF GOD.

That is like saying the Ten Commandments were given to the Jews, therefore it is alright to go and disobey them now. They are no more relevant. Is that what you will do? Go and commit adultery because it is one of the Ten Commandments, given to the Jews, and not relevant for us today. That is your logic here. The verse is relevant for us today because good works that try to please God are like filthy rags for the unsaved. A man's righteousness cannot please God. Jesus said: "Unless your righteousness exceed the righteousness of a Pharisee you cannot enter the kingdom of God. Why? Because your own righteousnesses are as filthy rags.

The reasoning you use to say what I believe is way off, and so are the beliefs you say I have. The filthy rags scripture is to the Jews. The Jews had God’s word. The Jews were God’s chosen people. They continued to sin against God, and their righteous acts were like filthy rags. If you try to tell an unsaved person the Way to God, but tell them everything they try to do right through Jesus is as filthy rags would be complete falseness and confusion. The filthy rags scripture is not for people who want to come to God through Jesus. The filthy rags scripture is not for people seeking God through Jesus.

No, I wasn't. You keep wanting to change the topic. Here is what I said:
He is blind to the truth. Everything he does is an abomination to God.
I wasn't talking about a man coming to Christ. The unsaved man is blind to the truth of God. Everything he does, as far as meriting heaven is an abomination to God.

What we have here is an example of your false beliefs being exposed. We were talking about a man coming to Christ. The unsaved man is blind to the truth of God, and everything he does as far as meriting heaven, BUT WHEN HE HEARS THE GOSPEL, AND WHEN A TEACHER EXPLAINS THE GOSPEL TO HIM, HE IS HAVING HIS EYES OPENED UP. The Bible tells us this. The Bible tells us that faith comes from hearing, being taught, convinced, and persuaded.

Every religion has their own works. They might be keeping the Ten Commandments. They might be keeping the Tradition of the Church. They might be the rules that the church has set out for them. Works do not save. Only Christ can save you.

We have to get Jesus’ teachings and obey them.

Abraham was saved by faith the same way we are. Romans 4:1-5.

Abraham’s faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. See James 2:22.

 

[steaver]

Abraham’s faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. See James 2:22.

This could be a bit misleading. The final conclusion found in James is that Abraham's works was evidence Abraham had a true saving faith. The works played no part in God saving Abraham, but the works showed that Abraham truly believed God and God imputed unto him righteousness.

 

[DHK]

I gave the correct definition of total depravity as believed by Calvinists. Googling can easily prove it. If the reader is interested, one can go to Total Depravity in Wikipedia, they have a thorough explanation. Another option would be to Google what does TULIP stand for. Read the definition of ‘T’.

Wikipedia is not always the best source. Go to a theological dictionary.

Total depravity (also called total inability or total corruption) is a biblical doctrine closely linked with the doctrine of original sin as formalized by Augustine and advocated in many Protestant confessions of faith and catechisms, especially in Calvinism. The doctrine understands the Bible to teach that, as a consequence of the the Fall of man, every person born into the world is morally corrupt, enslaved to sin and is, apart from the grace of God, utterly unable to choose to follow God or choose to turn to Christ in faith for salvation.

http://www.theopedia.com/Total_depravity

This is Total depravity as defined by the Calvinists themselves. This I don't believe.

The reason you cannot see that I gave you the correct answer, is because you adhere to the false beliefs of total depravity. Let me try to explain it to you again. When the UNSAVED man, the man who has NOT come into salvation, when he hears the gospel of Jesus Christ, he then is hearing the Truth, the powerful Word of God. Truth has now come to the man. Let us say the man did not believe right away, but keeps thinking of what he heard, so then he decides to get a Bible and get Jesus’ teachings. Then, the man decides he will believe and not doubt that what he reads is true, so he begins to do what Jesus says. Jesus says that the one who gets his teachings and does them is the one, who loves him, and he will love him and the Father and he will make their home with him. There is also a time of testing one goes through, there is the chance that one can give up, but the one who gets forceful and not give up no matter what, he will have the kingdom of heaven. I can give scripture for everything.

It is a matter of staying on subject. I don't care if you can give Scripture for everything you stated. That is not the subject. This was the subject:

Man cannot do good in and of himself. He is depraved. How can he do good, any good that will please God? He cannot! That is what I said. It speaks about the depravity of man; how he cannot do good to please God in his unsaved state. But you started talking about salvation.

But even in your rant above you avoided it. You avoid speaking about the nature of man, which my post is about. You avoid speaking of depravity--that a man is not able to choose good apart from the grace of God. You avoid the fact that a man cannot work his way to heaven; that he cannot by works merit heaven. That was the discussion. You have nothing to contribute, and therefore change the subject.

An unsaved person can love God that is when Jesus will save him. For you to say I change the topic, and that I cannot use certain scriptures, etc., is your effort to suppress the truth, whether you are conscious of that fact or not, that is what it amounts to being. Your beliefs that an unsaved person cannot love God, even after hearing the powerful Word of God, is called total depravity, and it is a false belief.

You don't know what Total Depravity is, and are therefore unqualified to speak on it. An unsaved person cannot love God. He loves God as much as a thief loves a police station. The unsaved person loves himself not God. He loves the world not himself. He loves the things the devil loves, not himself. He hates God, not loves God. Read Romans 3:9-18. He cannot love God.
But you change the topic "when Jesus saves him." You change the topic to salvation.

You say the Bible teaches an unsaved person cannot love God, but I tell you, nowhere in the Bible does is say that all men are born totally depraved to where they cannot hear the gospel and believe. In fact, THAT IS HOW THE BIBLE SAYS WE COME TO BELIEVE THE TRUTH, BY HEARING THE WORD OF GOD.

Again I don't believe in Total Depravity, so that is a red herring.
An unsaved person cannot love God.
There is none righteous no not one.
There is none that doeth good, no not one.
God hates all the workers of iniquity.

Psalms 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
--They are fools; They don't do good, and they don't love God.

But you have changed the topic AGAIN. I said

I wasn't speaking of salvation. An unsaved person cannot love God no matter how hard he tries. That is a given. That is what the Bible teaches.

See, you keep changing the topic to salvation. I wasn't speaking of salvation.

The reasoning you use to say what I believe is way off, and so are the beliefs you say I have. The filthy rags scripture is to the Jews. The Jews had God’s word. The Jews were God’s chosen people. They continued to sin against God, and their righteous acts were like filthy rags. If you try to tell an unsaved person the Way to God, but tell them everything they try to do right through Jesus is as filthy rags would be complete falseness and confusion. The filthy rags scripture is not for people who want to come to God through Jesus. The filthy rags scripture is not for people seeking God through Jesus.

I have already answered this countless of times. You don't listen.

What we have here is an example of your false beliefs being exposed. We were talking about a man coming to Christ. The unsaved man is blind to the truth of God, and everything he does as far as meriting heaven, BUT WHEN HE HEARS THE GOSPEL, AND WHEN A TEACHER EXPLAINS THE GOSPEL TO HIM, HE IS HAVING HIS EYES OPENED UP. The Bible tells us this. The Bible tells us that faith comes from hearing, being taught, convinced, and persuaded.

We were never talking about a man coming to Christ; only you were. You keep changing the topic. Here is what the topic was AGAIN:

He is blind to the truth. Everything he does is an abomination to God.

That is not about a man coming to God; not about salvation. Why don't you stay with the topic?? You just can't can you? Thus the false beliefs are all yours. The reason--you don't know how to carry on an intelligent conversation.

Abraham’s faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. See James 2:22.

I am not even going to attempt to explain that verse to you. I doubt if you would understand it. Besides there is another thread covering it.

 

[Moriah]

This could be a bit misleading. The final conclusion found in James is that Abraham's works was evidence Abraham had a true saving faith. The works played no part in God saving Abraham, but the works showed that Abraham truly believed God and God imputed unto him righteousness.

Are you kidding? Do you think Abraham would have the relationship he had with God if he had not have wanted to do everything God told him to do?

Even Jesus Christ says he remains in the Father's love because he does what the Father says to do!

 

[Moriah]

Total depravity from DHK’s site:

Total depravity (also called total inability or total corruption) is a biblical doctrine closely linked with the doctrine of original sin as formalized by Augustine and advocated in many Protestant confessions of faith and catechisms, especially in Calvinism. The doctrine understands the Bible to teach that, as a consequence of the the Fall of man, every person born into the world is morally corrupt, enslaved to sin and is, apart from the grace of God, utterly unable to choose to follow God or choose to turn to Christ in faith for salvation.


DHK’s beliefs on depravity:

These are exact quotes from DHK.

Man cannot do good in and of himself. He is depraved. How can he do good, any good that will please God? He cannot!
That is what I said. It speaks about the depravity of man; how he cannot do good to please God in his unsaved state.
An unsaved person cannot love God.
An unsaved person cannot love God no matter how hard he tries.


ANYONE WHO CAN SEE, THEY CAN SEE THAT YOU BELIEVE IN TOTAL DEPRAVITY AS THE CALVINISTS DO.

 

[steaver]

Are you kidding? Do you think Abraham would have the relationship he had with God if he had not have wanted to do everything God told him to do?

Even Jesus Christ says he remains in the Father's love because he does what the Father says to do!

I agree! And because I believe, I obey. The obedience does not add to my justification before God, it only shows evidence that I do believe. The two are inseperable, yet only the faith has saving merit.

 

[DHK]

You said you believe a person can do nothing to please God, THAT IS TOTAL DEPRAVITY. If people can do nothing to please God, then that person cannot even believe in God on their own after learning of Jesus. THAT IS TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

But that is not what I believe. But you wouldn't know that because you can't keep on topic. You keep on changing the subject. Perhaps if you stayed with one subject you would learn something. Quit trying to imitate the J.W.'s!

You can deny all you want that you do not believe in total depravity as the Calvinists do, but the fact remains that you do.

Please don't show your ignorance.

When the man hears the powerful, truthful Word of God, and believes, that is how a man can do what God says. When the man hears the powerful Word of God, and does what Jesus says, that is how a man can do what God says. Those things please God when we believe and obey His Son.

I wouldn't doubt it. But that was never the topic. The topic was the unsaved man. And the unsaved man cannot do those things. He cannot please God. He is the enemy of God. He cannot love God, until he is first saved. And salvation was never the topic of this thread.

What silly rules are you making for this discussion that I cannot tell you how an unsaved person loves God? Again, when the unsaved person hears the gospel of Jesus, gets Jesus’ teachings, and does what Jesus says to do, that is how the unsaved person loves God. Of course, God gives His Spirit to someone who does those things.

The rule is: "Keep to the topic!" Can you do that??
An unsaved person cannot love God. He is the enemy of God.
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
--This is not loving God.

The scripture about filthy rags were to the Jews. That scripture is not to people wanting to be saved, nor is that scripture to saved Christians, unless the saved Christian is not obeying God but instead, living in sin.

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

The scripture that speaks of filthy rags is not to the works of the unsaved person, but to the Jews who kept sinning against God.

Except your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees, you in no wise can enter the kingdom of God. The righteousness of the Pharisees were as filthy rags.
"But we are all as an unclean thing and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags."

You are wrong. We were talking about the person coming to Christ. You said a person coming to Christ could do nothing Jesus says to do.

Not once was I talking about coming to Christ; I have kept this conversation to the nature of the unsaved man.

The Jews had the works of the law. They had to do circumcisions. They had to do various ceremonial washings on themselves and in the earthly temple. They had to offer sin offerings and gift offerings. They had to observe special days, seasons, and years. They had to go to a priest to confess their sins. They had to do all these things and more, just to worship God. We do not have to do those things, nor any works to be saved.
Works do not save us. We are no longer saved by works, as the Jews once were.

But you act as if you have to do works to save you.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

You said you believe to sin or not to sin has nothing to do with your salvation. That is not biblical. How do you eat the flesh of Jesus if you do not obey His words? Matthew 4:4 Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'“ James 1:22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.
Luke 6:46 "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?
Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

The unsaved cannot obey.
Why do you use Scripture directed to Christians and try to apply them to the unsaved. Do you know how to "rightly divide the word of truth"?

 

[DHK]

Total depravity from DHK’s site:

Total depravity (also called total inability or total corruption) is a biblical doctrine closely linked with the doctrine of original sin as formalized by Augustine and advocated in many Protestant confessions of faith and catechisms, especially in Calvinism. The doctrine understands the Bible to teach that, as a consequence of the the Fall of man, every person born into the world is morally corrupt, enslaved to sin and is, apart from the grace of God, utterly unable to choose to follow God or choose to turn to Christ in faith for salvation.

That is right. I don't believe that.

DHK’s beliefs on depravity:

These are exact quotes from DHK.

Man cannot do good in and of himself. He is depraved. How can he do good, any good that will please God? He cannot!
That is what I said. It speaks about the depravity of man; how he cannot do good to please God in his unsaved state.
An unsaved person cannot love God.
An unsaved person cannot love God no matter how hard he tries.


ANYONE WHO CAN SEE, THEY CAN SEE THAT YOU BELIEVE IN TOTAL DEPRAVITY AS THE CALVINISTS DO.

No they are not the same.

All of my statements relate to the unsaved trying to merit heaven. The unsaved person cannot love God. He loves God as a thief loves a police station. There is not one good thing he can do to merit his own salvation.

I believe in the "whosoever's of the Bible. I believe in John 3:16

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I believe that the unsaved man has the choice to come to Jesus or to reject him, after having heard the gospel. Whosoever will may come.
The person believing the Calvinistic version of Total Depravity or Total Inability does not believe that. He believes that a person has no choice at all. He believes in Irresistable Grace--that God must send special grace and that grace will be irresistable for the elect so that he must believe. It is not "whosoever" but the elect will believe. I believe that even man in his sin nature has the choice to receive Christ, or reject Christ, and there will come a time that he will stand before Christ some day, and he will be responsible for his decision.

That is not Total Inability.