No Water in Romans 6:3

I have to say I'm a little dissappointed in the lack of any real cohesiveness in this thread. The only thing to come out of it is the same tired refrain of: The Catholic church be bad, I haven't a clue what they really teach but they're wrong! We have some that seem to say water isn't necessary for baptism others that say the Tridentine formula is not the proper way to Baptize and still others that promote a easy beleivism as a means of receiving the Holy Spirit. Do this any one of you: Show us one example of the Church that believed in your heretical views in the 1st, 4th, 7th, 10th or 12th, century. Prove to us your not just some clown with a knack for reciting biblical verses out of context. Prove continuity. Show us the proof outside of the Bible that believers interpreted scripture exactly the way you did. And don't tell me you don't have to go outside of the Bible. You have all proven that you do just that when you promote your anti-biblical heresies!
Batter Up.

 

Why, Singer? I did!

And that was before I became a Catholic!

"Modifying" what statement, Singer? I am simply telling you that when Christ said He would build His church upon the ROCK (recently given to Simon as his name in the same sentence) that is exactly what Christ intended to do!

And then in the very next verse, give him the "keys of the kingdom"? If that is not a giving of authority, I don't know what authority is, expecially when Christ compounds the authority with the power to "bind and loose!"

Singer, it is before your eyes! And if it were a snake it would have bitten you!

No, Leo is not taking the place of God, by election, he is taking the place of Peter, the man Christ appointed to run the Church here on earth.

From out of the blue....

Well, read this link:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Call_No_Man_Father.asp

That's because we are both sinners and fall short of the glory of God!

Well I must say, with the beard and side burns, you are right in style!

Well, I do! Heehee!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Rome has spoken, case is closed.

Derived from Augustine's famous Sermon.

 

Singer, I am still scratching my head. What does baptism have to do with the Upper Room?

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Rome has spoken, case is closed.

Derived from Augustine's famous Sermon.

 

Singer, could this mean that we have another poster that has the baptism of the Holy Ghost, evidenced by speaking in other tongues?</font>[/QUOTE]No, because Singer spoke of the Last Supper, which has nothing at all to do with baptism, let alone the coming of the holy Spirit, so far as I can see.

Matthew 28:19, where it is loud and clear!

Not at all! Peter is speaking of the type of baptism, not the formula as given in Matthew 18:19. And in the fervor of his speech, it would have damped the effects of his words to complicate his rethoric with "...Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the holy Spirit for the remission of sins...."

You seem to be in disagreement with the early church fathers as well, as we see in this link:

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/tribap.htm

AMEN to that!

How do you know that, MEE?

Or is it possible that with the laying on of hands, you are now seeing the Sacrament of Confirmation?

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


I believe in God,
the Father Almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son,
Our Lord;
who was conceived by the holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died,
and was buried.

He descended into hell;
the third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
sitteth at the right hand of God,
the Father almighty;
from thence He shall come to judge
the living and the dead.

I believe in the holy Spirit,
the Holy Catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.

- The Apostles Creed -

 

Ray, I hope you are right!

but there are others who just may not be...lurking.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


I believe in God,
the Father Almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son,
Our Lord;
who was conceived by the holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died,
and was buried.

He descended into hell;
the third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
sitteth at the right hand of God,
the Father almighty;
from thence He shall come to judge
the living and the dead.

I believe in the holy Spirit,
the Holy Catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.

- The Apostles Creed -

 

But it's only a church you promote, Bill. The actual reason for that same church is
also available to non-Catholics in the same proportions. We're saved by grace
through our faith in Jesus as our saviour. A church is merely a tool for gathering
to worship. Worship can be done at home however. Church is not the ultimate final purpose of our faith. Finding a church is a very secondary thing. Finding Christ Himself is the goal. Wouldn't you agree?

Maybe I'm wrong, Bill, but I thought the upper room was where the Holy Spirit fell on
and empowered the apostles for the work which lay ahead. Why do you insist it only
was a baptism scene and had nothing to do with the Holy Spirit? You are the one who
said "Yep! And the holy Spirit comes when the water is applied,"
The upper room was where they were baptized with the Holy Spirit, Bill. I don't think I mentioned Last Supper did I....we were talking about the upper room.

The spirit didn't come upon me through either baptism or church attendance, a priest, water,
sacraments, Peter, Mary , the rosary, the pope, etc. I merely asked for it like the bible says to do.

Luk 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Singer

 

Deleted as a duplicate post

 

But it's only a church you promote, Bill.</font>[/QUOTE]It sure is! The only Church as established by Jesus christ and the only one around for the first 1500 years of christian history.

And not consider the very same Church, Christ Himself established? Why, if you wish to follow Christ, do you then cast-off the very Church He established?

With the awesome authority Christ gave His Church in Matthew 16:18-19 and you minimize it as a "mere tool"? Incredible, Singer!

I do it all the time too, Singer! In fact, I do not do it enough! but I do go to Church where I can receive the Sacraments which are not available to me at home.

Of course not! Who said it was? Heaven and to be with God is the ultimate final purpose of our faith, and the Church facilities that journey to that final happy ending!

else why would Christ establish His Church if it were not the vehicle The Barque of Peter, that we are to ride on to that salvation?

How did I find Christ? I found His Church, which points to Christ and His Sacraments!

I last said:

Singer, I am still scratching my head. What does baptism have to do with the Upper Room?[/QUOTE]Maybe I'm wrong, Bill, but I thought the upper room was where the Holy Spirit fell on
and empowered the apostles for the work which lay ahead.[/quote]

Well, I don't see that in Scripture, Singer. But I do see the empowering you speak of at Pentecost, long after Christ had resurrected and ascended to the Father in heaven.

I last said:

OK, as when even I speak of the Upper Room, I think of the Last Supper. But yes, they were gathered there and indeed, the holy Spirit did ascend upon them then. Glad we cleared that up!

Really? Not even baptism? When you got married? Can the holy Spirit come upon an individual at any time the holy Spirit wishes. Singer?

Exactly! At any time, Singer, at any time!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

 

Where do you get "immersion" out of this, while certainly, baptism by immersion was the norm in those early times, so far as we can tell?
</font>[/QUOTE]Romans 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Here's my paraphrase or explanation:
Should we keep on sinning so we can receive more grace? No way! We died to sin and its hold on us. Don't you remember when you were baptized, when you were lowered into the water, it was a picture of Christ's death, and how when you received Him that you too were dead to sin? And how when you were raised up out of the water, it was a picture of His resurrection and how you were transformed by His saving grace, and now live for Him? We now have the power to choose to live for Him, for His Spirit dwells within us, whereas before, we could not help but sin, because we were slaves to the evil one.

 

Triune Baptism

"And concerning baptism, thus baptize ye: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if thou have not living water, baptize into other water; and if thou canst not in cold, in warm. But if thou have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but thou shalt order the baptized to fast one or two days before."
Didache,7(c.A.D. 140),in ANF,VII:379

**Bill, this being the first part of the link that you provided 'isn't biblical.'

Why would you want to go by something that the Apostles never preached and still call yourself *APOSTOLIC?*

This link will show how the Catholic Church changed the original formula of water baptism, which was done in the name of Jesus Christ/Lord Jesus Christ to being baptized in titles.

Singer, this one would be a good one for you to take the time to read. Get you a good cup of coffee, sit back, and enjoy!

http://www.pentecostalsonline.org/one.html

MEE

 

Ok, will do Carol as long as it's
Folgers Classic Blend Coffee

 

Where do you get "immersion" out of this, while certainly, baptism by immersion was the norm in those early times, so far as we can tell?
</font>[/QUOTE]Romans 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Here's my paraphrase or explanation:
Should we keep on sinning so we can receive more grace? No way! We died to sin and its hold on us. Don't you remember when you were baptized, when you were lowered into the water, it was a picture of Christ's death, and how when you received Him that you too were dead to sin? And how when you were raised up out of the water, it was a picture of His resurrection and how you were transformed by His saving grace, and now live for Him? We now have the power to choose to live for Him, for His Spirit dwells within us, whereas before, we could not help but sin, because we were slaves to the evil one. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, I know of the comparison of being totally immersed into water and then brought out as a figure of Christ's death and resurrection. But does that specify immersion as the only means of baptism?

I earlier had an exchange with Singer, where I pointed-out that when water of sufficient quantity by a deep running stream, fountain or public bath, that what water you had could be then poured over the individual as a sign of that same death and resurrection per Christ Jesus, as explained in the famous didache that has been dated to as early as AD 70 by some scholars. Therefore, with the water applied in this manner, can then the flow of water also allude to the going down into the grave, and yet later the resurrection? For practical reasons, I think so...

And again, baptism by immersion is perfectly fine and a valid method of baptism. And the early church most likely did it this way whenever there was suitable water.

I doubt Paul was baptized in that manner by Ananias in the house Paul was residing. And after the scales fell from his eyes and he regained his sight, he got up and was baptized, per Acts. 9:18.

Was there sufficient water available that Paul could be totally immersed in baptism? Scripture implies that he was baptized within the "house" Paul was staying.

But I ramble too much here...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


"…Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism which saves you now…"

1 Peter 3:20-21

 

How is it not biblical, MEE? Do you see the Triune formula given here as we see in Matthew 28:19? Also, the didache is a very old document, dated back to the very edge of the end of the apostolic era, so are you going to tell me that the Church fell into error so soon after the death of the last apostle?

How do you know the apostles never preached that? Some think the didache was the first "instruction manual" from the apostles to others on how to do these things! (Yet the Catholic Church, in her various synods in the 4th century, decided that it was not canonical and was not included in scripture, something some local/regional churches wanted included.)

And while the writings of the early fathers are not scripture, are they not evidence of what was taught in those early times, MEE?

Therefore, Christ's church fell into and wallowed in error for the first 1500 years of her existence, requiring Luther and others to rescue the truth? Where was Christ's promise that '...the gates of hell shall not pravail against it" (church), MEE?

What? You don't include me to read that too?

(I'll look at it after I post this message.)

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)