NOBLE ARMY OF "HERETICS"

The Catholic Church of course teaches that we are justified by faith, but not faith alone that being the passive, onetime acceptance of Jesus Christ which you have mistakenly identified as being the same thing. There are plenty of verses that you can dig up in the Bible that talk about being justified by faith, but you want find Paul saying anything thing about faith alone unless you actually insert the word into the text like Luther did.

James on the other hand spells it out clearly(the only place where "faith alone" is used). Such a phrase can't work in your theology since you actually have to demonstrate that the verse means exactly the opposite of what it is saying.

The Catholic Church upholds the scipural formuala of salvation, that being an active faith that works through love and charity under the grace of God. Any deviation from this is a deviation from the truth and the scriptures.

 

J.S.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law

You're right; there are alot of verses that attest to faith. Rom 3:28 uses the term "faith without the deeds of the law (works)".

"Faith without" seems like "Faith alone" to me.

Dealing with salvation, you used the term "an active faith that works through love and charity ". This supports the theory that more works and chairty will result in a better chance of salvation. That is Salvation By Works; earning your way to heaven, and that is why it appears to me that Catholics are busying themselves in an attempt to influence and impress God and their peers.

Singer

 

Just a quick reminder to JS, that Luther wasn't as bad as Catholics make him out to be. His initial beef with the RCC was nothing more than the corrupt sale of indulengences- which the Catholic Church was able to eventually put a stop to some members of their leadership doing that. Luther, in his 95 thesis never states that he is out to make a whole new religion. He was still very much a Catholic monk in thought. Unfortunately the Catholic leadership at the time and instead of taking every effort to weed out the bad apples in the church with him choose to work against him. He ended up eventually having almost no choice but to leave the Catholic Church.

Luther was very outspoken in his catachism and writings which I encourage you to read. He bad-mouthed "new-spirits" or anabaptists and Zwigli like you wouldn't believe. I firmly believe if he caught anyone refusing to baptize an infant he'd pitch such a fit as to knock the pastor on the head.

 

"Therefore only presumptouos and stupid persons draw the conclusion that where there is no true faith, there also can be no true Baptism. Likewise I might argue, "if I have no faith, then Christ is nothing." Or again, "If I am not obedient, then father, mother, and magistrates are nothing." It is correct to conclude that when anybody does not do what he should, the thing that he misuses has no existence or no value? My friend, rather invert the arguement and conclude, Precisely becuase Baptism has been wrongly received, it has existence and value. The saying goes, "Abusus non tollit, sed confirmat substantiam," that is "Misuse does not destroy the substance, but confirms its existence." Gold remains no less gold if a harlot wears it in sin and shame."

~Dr. Martin Luther. Large Catachism, Part four: Baptism, 58-59
Tappert, Teodore G., Pelikan, Jaroslav, Fischer, Robert H., and Piepkorn, Arthur C., Trans and eds.
The Book of Concord: The Confession of The Evangelical Lutheran Church.
Philidelphia: Fortress Press, 1959. Pp 357ff.

 

Adam,

What is your explanation of the terms:

1. True faith
2. True baptism

Being a Protestant, do you posess either one?

Singer

 

Singer, don't be tempted to do what Luther did and add "alone" next to faith in Romans 3:28. The text means that faith coupled with works of the law does not justify, faith is apart from the works of the law. You are reading into the text what isn't there.

I use the Bibilical terms Singer as Paul said that faith working through love/charity is what counts and James says that we are justified by works and not by faith alone. Obedience in faith is the message of the gospel.

 

Brother Adam, I believe I specifically addressed some comments you made about Luther on another thread yesterday, you might want to check them out.

Again, the charge of indulgence selling is unfounded yet there was of course indulgence abuse. Luther is not a reliable witness to the times. He intentionally distorted the teaching on indulgences setting up a straw man.

 

Singer,

Naturally, "don't take my word for it"

1) True Baptism uses water and is a baptism using the trinitarian method: "In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

Yes, i have been baptized.

2) True faith is more than simple belief as testified by the Bible: Demons believe, yet they shudder. Demons know Christ is the Messiah, Son of God, and they know soteriology better than we probably ever will. They "believe" all of these things, Yet, there place is in the lake of fire!

Faith and fruits cannot be seperated as testified by Jesus Christ himself in Matthew 7:15-23. Whether of not you choose to say that fruits are only part of santification, or that they are part of justification, they are regardless, necessary in the life of a believer.

In scripture we know that faith works through love(gal 5:6). thus- faith works. It is also said that faith is nothing without love, and the greatest of faith, hope and love is....love.

Nelsons dictionary says that "Faith" is a commitment to God's will" and Hebrews says "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen".

On top of all that:

"Faith is something superior to knowledge and is its criterion. conjecture, which is only a feeble supposition, is a counterfeit faith"

"Faith is a voluntary anticipation, the assent of piety.

- Clement of Alexandria

"For what reason was our father Abraham blessed? Was it not because he worked righteousness and truth through faith?

- Clement of Rome

Therefore let us not be ungrateful for His kindness. For if He were to reward us according to our works, we would cease to be.

-Ignatius, Bishop

Into this joy, many persons desire to enter. They know that "by grace you are saved, not of works," but by the will of God through Jesus Christ... But He who raised Him up from the dead will raise up us also- if we do His will, and walk in His commandments, and love what He loved, keeping ourselves from all unrighteousness.

-Polycarp

It is not necessary to pay a price either in the way of bribery or of labor- such that a man's elevation or dignity or power would be begotten in him with elaborate effort. Rather, it is a gatuitous gift from God adn is accessible to all.

-Cyprian


yes, I believe I have true faith.

 

According to your Catholic friends, "The Faith" means Catholicism, as well as they believe "The Church" is the Catholic church and "One baptism" means baptism that is done through the Catholic Church.
According to that, you do not possess the faith or the baptism.

What do you make of that?

 

According to your Catholic friends, "The Faith" means Catholicism, as well as they believe "The Church" is the Catholic church and "One baptism" means baptism that is done through the Catholic Church.
According to that, you do not possess the faith or the baptism.

What do you make of that? </font>[/QUOTE]Well, that you either haven't taken the time out to listen and learn from our Catholic friends, or that you don't care to learn and already are so convinced based on prior education that Catholics are not Christians that it doesn't matter what we talk about, nothing will change.


First, Baptism:

As Catholics have said over, and over, and over, and over again anyone, anywhere, belonging to any denomination or no denomination at all who is baptized is imperfectly united to the Catholic church- so long as that baptism uses the valid formula. A baptism in the name of "Daffy Duck, Sylvester, and Bugs" would not be recognized as valid.

Second, Faith:

The beliefs of the Catholic Church do not damn everyone to hell that is not a Catholic. Instead it allows that there will be some who are imperfectly united to the Church and who, through no fault of their own, will not become a member in their lifetime. Catholics recognize and affirm the Apostles and Nicene Creeds as foundations for the Christian faith.

They do believe that the norm for mans seperation from God to return to God is through the universal church. This is the norm however, according to their beliefs, not the only way.

"Faith=Catholicism" is a rather poor interpretation of the excellent definition given on another thread where the word "Catholicism" was completely lacking.

Is that answer good enough?

 

YOUmust not understand Catholicism, Adam.

Our friend Kathryn on this board had this to say about her Catholic Church. One of you is wrong.

(Quote)
"God established a Church. If you are saved, it is through His Church. The Church is your mother whether you reject her or not. The Church is the mother of all mankind that Jesus redeemed on the cross. This is the gospel of Jesus Christ. All
men and women who are saved are saved through His
Church. Christianity without the Church Jesus Christ established isn't the gospel."


No, You don't understand Catholicism.

Singer

 

I guess it is that you refuse to understand. There is nothing contradictory between what I have told you and that quote.

 

Kathryn's statement and Adam's statement are in perfect harmony.

I would also add that Brother Adam has done an exemplary job of stating Catholic doctrine and belief.

Now, what, are you going to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about and he doesn't know what he's talking about and neither does any other Catholic...it's only you and your friends who REALLY know what WE TEACH and WE BELIEVE?

[ February 10, 2004, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: GraceSaves ]

 

Maybe I do understand then.

You both agree that it is not necessary to be joined to the Catholic Church to be saved.

"The beliefs of the Catholic Church do not damn everyone to hell that is not a Catholic. Instead it allows that there will be some who are imperfectly united to the Church and who, through no fault of their own, will not become a member in their lifetime. "

Well that's a relief...!
I'll remain separated from the Catholic Church then as you have given me no reason to join.

Singer

 

Wow, what an inspiration you are. The bare minimum, eh? Congrats. Might as well just sin to your hearts content, too! As long as your saved, you don't need to do anything, so why try, right?

Thank you for proving all of our points that you do not understand.

 

No one is asking you to become Catholic...at least I haven't seen that on this thread. I certianly would not encourage it.

I really don't understand why everyone takes all of this so personally. We aren't born understanding anything other than how to breathe, eat, and poop....oh, and cry as I was just reminded by a mom.

Unfortunately most of us grew up not understanding a clue about what the Catholic Church teaches. As a general rule most American Catholics don't have a solid grip on Catholic doctrine (which is a major problem).

Instead of going on a constant rampage of insults (this goes for everyone including myself) and downing anything Catholic because we "know better", it is much more worth our while to sit down and learn from people like Carson and consider ourselves lucky to have folks such as him and Grant and WPutnam and others who know their faith so well. Then we too can learn what Catholics believe without having to worry that we all have to go out and become Catholic.

honestly, the only three non-Catholics here that I think have any kind of grip at all on Catholicism besides myself is Bobryan, Ray, and Johnv. I know they understand that Catholicism goes beyond simple systematic theology. I think all three of us though are still a long way away from understanding Catholicism for what it is.

Catholics are not your enemies. They are your brothers and sisters in Christ and the sooner we lay down the swords we are trying to impale on each other and learn from each other the better. Then once we truly understand what we have in common and what we don't, we can sit down and in charity discuss the doctrines we don't see eye to eye on.

 

When people bring up this "the only place where faith and alone are used together is in James" buisiness, its just so sad. Its so embarassing, I would think nobody could say that with a clear conscience.

"For it is by grace that you are saved,..."

Grace is specifically included.

"...through faith."

Faith is specifically included

"And that not of yourself..."

We are specifically excluded.

"it is the gift of God. Not of works lest anyone should boast.

Works are specifically excluded.

Of course, this passage of scripture is just thoe proverbial "tip of the iceberg" regarding this topic. God is just so very very clear.

"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them"

And here we see works placed in their proper perspective...flowing from our justification before God, but in no way shape or form contributing to it.

And that is precisly how James means it.

God bless all,

Mike

 

When people bring up this "the only place where faith and alone are used together is in James" buisiness, its just so sad. Its so embarassing, I would think nobody could say that with a clear conscience.

In the English KJV Bible that IS the only place where the words "Faith" and "alone" occur. I can say it is with a clear conscience.


"For it is by grace that you are saved,..."


scripture


Grace is specifically included.


interpretation

scripture


Faith is specifically included

interpretation

scripture

We are specifically excluded.

interpretation

scripture


Works are specifically excluded.

interpretation, with a specific lack of understanding of Jewish backround which shows that Christ came with a new covanent fulfilling the works of the law so no man may consider himself saved through the works of the law. However, the verse is silent on the fruits of the spirit- the "good works" which are expected of the Christian.

And here we see works placed in their proper perspective...flowing from our justification before God, but in no way shape or form contributing to it.

And that is precisly how James means it.

Ah, interpretation

 

Again, much eisegesis going on here and assumptions about what these terms mean, just read the text and look at the use of words

"See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

Mike must convince us that these words actually mean the opposite of what they are saying.

 

I dont have to.

God has already done that, in the scriptures.

God bless,

Mike