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Non-Cals prayer for Non-Believers

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Greektim

Greektim

Well-Known Member
How do you pray for the lost? What exactly do you say/ask of God?

This is curious to me. I may press your ideas, but I am truly inquisitive.
 
Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Greektim said:
How do you pray for the lost? What exactly do you say/ask of God?

This is curious to me. I may press your ideas, but I am truly inquisitive.
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Calivinists know that the Lord will indeed open the herats/minds of those Jesus died to atone for their sins, so what confidence would a real non -cal have in coming to God with this request?

Clarrification question...

Are you assuming here that many arminians would still boldly ask God to save sinners, but those holding to more "free will" salvation are asking differently?
 
Greektim

Greektim

Well-Known Member
Yeshua1 said:
Calivinists know that the Lord will indeed open the herats/minds of those Jesus died to atone for their sins, so what confidence would a real non -cal have in coming to God with this request?

Clarrification question...

Are you assuming here that many arminians would still boldly ask God to save sinners, but those holding to more "free will" salvation are asking differently?
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I'm trying to figure out what they say and why they say it.
 
steaver

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Greektim said:
I'm trying to figure out what they say and why they say it.
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I believe they pray the exact same way a non-cal prays. If you ever listen to John MacArthur, he preaches and prays just like an Arminian, yet he insist YULIP is correct.
 
Greektim

Greektim

Well-Known Member
steaver said:
I believe they pray the exact same way a non-cal prays. If you ever listen to John MacArthur, he preaches and prays just like an Arminian, yet he insist YULIP is correct.
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I am asking how a non-Cal prays. I already know have Calvinists pray... I are one!
 
W

Winman

Active Member
Greektim said:
How do you pray for the lost? What exactly do you say/ask of God?

This is curious to me. I may press your ideas, but I am truly inquisitive.
Click to expand...

Well, while I believe in free will, and do not believe God can force anyone to believe, that is not to say I do not believe God can cause circumstances in a person's life that would encourage them to believe. An example is the prodigal son, wasting away all his wealth, a famine coming upon that land, being joined to a citizen of that far country, and being sent into the fields to feed his swine certainly seemed to have a profound effect on him. (Luk 15:13-19)

Now, I don't pretend to know what circumstances would lead one to repentance. It might not have to be something bad such as losing all your money and being forced to eat corn husks as the prodigal son. I leave that up to God who is much wiser than I am. But I do pray that God would bring about those circumstances that would encourage this person to repent.

I also pray that God would be patient and long-suffering with this person. I do believe God is very patient and long-suffering, but the book of Romans shows there is a point where God gives a person "up" or "over" to a reprobate mind. (Rom 1:24-28). I believe this is when God simply withdraws his influence toward this person and leaves them to destroy themselves. A very terrible place to be in.

We also see this in Revelation 2 where God gave Jezebel "space to repent" but she repented not.

Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

So, I do pray that God would be very patient and long-suffering with those who are obviously rebellious toward God.

This is how I pray as concerning the lost.
 
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JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Revmitchell said:
Hmmm...I am wondering if some can also tell us how they walk down the street or eat spaghetti.
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At one time I walked down the street with a map trying to find my way. Now I just walk and where I end up is where I was supposed to be.
 
Greektim

Greektim

Well-Known Member
Winman said:
Well, while I believe in free will, and do not believe God can force anyone to believe, that is not to say I do not believe God can cause circumstances in a person's life that would encourage them to believe. An example is the prodigal son, wasting away all his wealth, a famine coming upon that land, being joined to a citizen of that far country, and being sent into the fields to feed his swine certainly seemed to have a profound effect on him. (Luk 15:13-19)

Now, I don't pretend to know what circumstances would lead one to repentance. It might not have to be something bad such as losing all your money and being forced to eat corn husks as the prodigal son. I leave that up to God who is much wiser than I am. But I do pray that God would bring about those circumstances that would encourage this person to repent.

I also pray that God would be patient and long-suffering with this person. I do believe God is very patient and long-suffering, but the book of Romans shows there is a point where God gives a person "up" or "over" to a reprobate mind. (Rom 1:24-28). I believe this is when God simply withdraws his influence toward this person and leaves them to destroy themselves. A very terrible place to be in.

We also see this in Revelation 2 where God gave Jezebel "space to repent" but she repented not.

Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

So, I do pray that God would be very patient and long-suffering with those who are obviously rebellious toward God.

This is how I pray as concerning the lost.
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Thank you, Winman. Very helpful.

Just to be sure I understand you correctly, you pray for 2 things: (1) God to initiate and cause certain circumstances that will lead to repentance & (2) God to be patient.

#2 was what I was looking for, I hadn't though of that answer for you. Thanks.

I will comment on #1 later when I am not giving a quiz on Wisdom Literature. :D
 
W

Winman

Active Member
Greektim said:
Thank you, Winman. Very helpful.

Just to be sure I understand you correctly, you pray for 2 things: (1) God to initiate and cause certain circumstances that will lead to repentance & (2) God to be patient.

#2 was what I was looking for, I hadn't though of that answer for you. Thanks.

I will comment on #1 later when I am not giving a quiz on Wisdom Literature. :D
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You are welcome Tim.
 
W

Winman

Active Member
JonC said:
At one time I walked down the street with a map trying to find my way. Now I just walk and where I end up is where I was supposed to be.
Click to expand...

Reminds me of one of Yogi Berra's famous quotes;

You have to be very careful if you don't know where you are going, or you might not get there. :laugh:
 
Earth Wind and Fire

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Yeshua1 said:
Aren't we to pray for all sinners, knowing God will save some of them?
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Whats this all business.... I pray for Gods sheep (lost or otherwise)....for the ones God has selected. What does it matter about the reprobate?

God is my Father. I am adopted. I know Him. I have an entrance & I want to go there in prayer. I want to speak to Him & I want to know Him. What possibly can my praying for a reprobate do, who has zero chance of knowing God ever, so what would prayer do for the reprobate?

I mean, you cannot pray up their salvation. That is entirely dependent upon God. If you as a believer are to pray to the Father, it is to constantly be in accord with Him....to constantly be in His presence & good graces. The reprobate doesnt want any of that & would reject it if offered.

So what do we want to do for the poor unfortunate reprobate.....ah yes, lets have an evangelistic campaign & bring them to Christ.......RIGHT, LOL! And thats exactly what they do.
 
W

Winman

Active Member
Yeshua1 said:
Aren't we to pray for all sinners, knowing God will save some of them?
Click to expand...

If Calvinism is true, who is to be saved and who is not was determined before the foundation of the world, your prayer is absolutely vain, it cannot change anything.
 
Greektim

Greektim

Well-Known Member
Winman said:
Well, while I believe in free will, and do not believe God can force anyone to believe, that is not to say I do not believe God can cause circumstances in a person's life that would encourage them to believe. An example is the prodigal son, wasting away all his wealth, a famine coming upon that land, being joined to a citizen of that far country, and being sent into the fields to feed his swine certainly seemed to have a profound effect on him. (Luk 15:13-19)

Now, I don't pretend to know what circumstances would lead one to repentance. It might not have to be something bad such as losing all your money and being forced to eat corn husks as the prodigal son. I leave that up to God who is much wiser than I am. But I do pray that God would bring about those circumstances that would encourage this person to repent.

I also pray that God would be patient and long-suffering with this person. I do believe God is very patient and long-suffering, but the book of Romans shows there is a point where God gives a person "up" or "over" to a reprobate mind. (Rom 1:24-28). I believe this is when God simply withdraws his influence toward this person and leaves them to destroy themselves. A very terrible place to be in.

We also see this in Revelation 2 where God gave Jezebel "space to repent" but she repented not.

Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

So, I do pray that God would be very patient and long-suffering with those who are obviously rebellious toward God.

This is how I pray as concerning the lost.
Click to expand...
My morning reading prompted this question about prayer. Here is an excerpt that I read from Piper (can read here: http://www.desiringgod.org/sermons/my-prayer-to-god-is-that-they-might-be-saved):

Inconsistent Praying

For example, he says, "Ask God to cause a specific person . . . to begin questioning whom they can really trust in life." But my question then is: Why is right for God to cause a person to think a question and wrong for God to cause that person to think an answer? Why is it legitimate for God to take control of a man to the degree that he cause the man to ask a question he would not have otherwise asked, but it is not legitimate for God to exert that same influence to cause the man to give an answer that he would not otherwise have given—namely, that Jesus should be trusted?

Even more telling is this suggestion Eastman suggests: "Pray that God will plant in the hearts of these people . . . an inner unrest, together with a longing to know the 'Truth.'" My question is: If it is legitimate for God to "plant a longing" in a person's heart, how strong can the longing be that God chooses to plant?

There are two kinds of longings God could plant in an unbeliever's heart. One is so strong that it leads the person to pursue and embrace Christ. The other is not strong enough to lead a person to embrace Christ. Which do you pray for? If you pray for the strong longing, then you are praying that the Lord work effectually and get that person saved. If you pray for the weak longing, then you are praying for an ineffectual longing that leaves the person in sin (but preserves his self-determination).

Do you see where this leads? People who really believe that man must have the ultimate power of self-determination can't consistently pray that God would convert sinners. Why? Because if they pray for divine influence in a sinner's life, they are either praying for a successful influence (which takes away the sinner's ultimate self-determination), or they are praying for an unsuccessful influence (which is not praying for conversion). So either you give up praying for conversion, or you give up ultimate human self-determination.
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So let me apply his analogy to your request. If it is legitimate for God to order circumstances in a person's path, how strong can the circumstances be that God chooses to plant? 2 kinds of circumstances, the ones that work and the ones that don't.

So which do you pray for? The kind of circumstances that are effectual and thus wrought by God? Or the ineffectual kind? If the 2nd, why bother? If the first, isn't that inconsistent to your view of free will?

If you pray for divine influence in a sinner's life, then you are either praying for a successful influence (which takes away the sinner's ultimate self-determination), or you are praying for an unsuccessful influence (which is not praying for conversion).
 
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