Non-Cals prayer for Non-Believers

[Winman]

My morning reading prompted this question about prayer. Here is an excerpt that I read from Piper (can read here: http://www.desiringgod.org/sermons/my-prayer-to-god-is-that-they-might-be-saved):

So let me apply his analogy to your request. If it is legitimate for God to order circumstances in a person's path, how strong can the circumstances be that God chooses to plant? 2 kinds of circumstances, the ones that work and the ones that don't.

So which do you pray for? The kind of circumstances that are effectual and thus wrought by God? Or the ineffectual kind? If the 2nd, why bother? If the first, isn't that inconsistent to your view of free will?

If you pray for divine influence in a sinner's life, then you are either praying for a successful influence (which takes away the sinner's ultimate self-determination), or you are praying for an unsuccessful influence (which is not praying for conversion).

I don't pretend to know what circumstances would be most likely to lead a person to repentance. I am sure I would mess the whole thing up!

It might be bad circumstances like the prodigal son wasting all his money, a famine in the land, and being forced into near slavery to survive. That would work on some persons, it might have the opposite effect on another person and cause them to blame God, I don't know.

It might be he would meet a nice girl that is a true Christian that lives a truly holy life that shows him the truth of scripture. We once had a evangelist who spoke at our church. He was a Roman Catholic. He loved his girlfriend and wanted to marry her, but she got saved at a Baptist church and refused to date him until he got saved. He thought it was merely a matter of converting and went to her church. But while there the pastor told him the gospel and he truly repented and accepted Christ as his Savior.

So, I don't know what a man needs to lead him to Christ, I leave that up to God.

 

[Inspector Javert]

As Winman said, I pray for conviction of sin (a necessary work of the Spirit for salvation)....

Similarly, we pray for God to use circumstances to bring them to repentance...
We pray for patience.
And we pray for God to "send someone their way" or send us perhaps to share the gospel with them.

Obviously, they must hear....obviously that assumes their must be a preacher etc.


With regards to Piper's questions, to me, non-Calvie this assumes compatibilism too much. For instance:

how strong can the circumstances be that God chooses to plant? 2 kinds of circumstances, the ones that work and the ones that don't.

This assumes that there ARE specifically 2 types, namely, a sufficient circumstance and an insufficient circumstance.

As a non-Calvie, I would say those are the wrong categories, there are NO circumstances in and of themselves sufficient to CAUSE anything. Only circumstances which are "weighed-into" decision-making. Piper is seeking sufficient causes. A non-Calvinist doesn't think wills are subject to sufficient causes.

If you pray for divine influence in a sinner's life, then you are either praying for a successful influence (which takes away the sinner's ultimate self-determination), or you are praying for an unsuccessful influence (which is not praying for conversion).

This is the same thing here:
There are necessary influences to wit:
Both the Calvinist and the non-Calvinist maintain that the work and calling and conviction of the Holy Spirit are necessary influences to salvation.....and it will not occur if it isn't present:

But to the non-Calvinist that isn't to say that that condition is always a sufficient one. Only that it is necessary for salvation to occur.

But, Piper only thinks of sufficient (effectual in Theo-speak) causes.

To the Calvinist mindset....Piper's objection holds, to the Arminian mindset....it's question-begging.

 

[Revmitchell]

My morning reading prompted this question about prayer. Here is an excerpt that I read from Piper (can read here: http://www.desiringgod.org/sermons/my-prayer-to-god-is-that-they-might-be-saved):



So let me apply his analogy to your request. If it is legitimate for God to order circumstances in a person's path, how strong can the circumstances be that God chooses to plant? 2 kinds of circumstances, the ones that work and the ones that don't.



So which do you pray for? The kind of circumstances that are effectual and thus wrought by God? Or the ineffectual kind? If the 2nd, why bother? If the first, isn't that inconsistent to your view of free will?

If you pray for divine influence in a sinner's life, then you are either praying for a successful influence (which takes away the sinner's ultimate self-determination), or you are praying for an unsuccessful influence (which is not praying for conversion).

To bad this post was not the actual op. Non cals do not think in these terms since be believe God desire all men (all meaning all) to come to Him and since we believe grace is offered to all.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You speak in such a way that I can never tell if you are sarcastic or serious. If you are not a Calvie, then just answer straight forward.

I did that...and bluntly.

 

[psalms109:31]

Luke 13:34
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.


1 Thessalonians 2
13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. 14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.


I praise God that God has an elect like Paul and through them bring billions upon billions to Christ through one man that through his message those who heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed will be included.

That we can pray like Spurgeon a Calvinist that God will call His elect and then elect some more.

That a good shepherd uses sheep to lead sheep.

If God didn't elect Paul billions upon billions would be lost right now.

I believe all means all when He said He wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and it is limited to only those who come to the knowledge of the truth who is Jesus and God does not want any to die but rather them to repent and live and is limited to those who repent turn to Christ.

I believe that God loved the world that He sent His son He didn't love the world that the world will be saved but that He sent His Son and the saved is limited to only believers.

I will believe the scripture just the way it is and refuse to change shape or cut one single twig from the branches.

We are apart of God's plan in the salvation of others to plant and water.

Not everyone can be a Paul some of us are just sheep who only know how to follow, but just being a sheep can lead people to Christ

 

[Winman]

That we can pray like Spurgeon a Calvinist that God will call His elect and then elect some more.

Spurgeon was absolutely inconsistent with Calvinism here. In Calvinism, God has determined before the foundation of the world who will be saved, all the rest are passed by. Your prayers cannot change a thing.

You need to get off Spurgeon, he was a man just like any other, and OFTEN taught error. This is a perfect example.

 

[steaver]

I am asking how a non-Cal prays. I already know have Calvinists pray... I are one!

Oh, oops! I pray for the Father to draw, the Holy Spirit to convict, and for Jesus to save.

 

[psalms109:31]

Spurgeon was absolutely inconsistent with Calvinism here. In Calvinism, God has determined before the foundation of the world who will be saved, all the rest are passed by. Your prayers cannot change a thing.

You need to get off Spurgeon, he was a man just like any other, and OFTEN taught error. This is a perfect example.

"I declare that God so overrules all things, as that man is not free enough to be responsible, I am driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. "

C.H. Spurgeon

You are hearing many things that is a residue left over from hyper and is not Calvinism.


People hatred is really not helpful. I like Spurgeon and use him to speak to calvinist.

We are all playing apart of something that has already happened. God knows all His elect.

 

[Winman]

"I declare that God so overrules all things, as that man is not free enough to be responsible, I am driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. "

C.H. Spurgeon

I like Spurgeon and use him to speak to calvinist.

Like? I would say that is a HUGE understatement. Spurgeon was a great preacher, but he made errors, especially calling Calvinism the gospel. That is a monumental error.

 

[Revmitchell]

"I am not sure that in heaven that we shall be able to know where the free agency of man and the sovereignty of God meet, but both are great truths."

Charles Haddon Spurgeon

 

[psalms109:31]

Like? I would say that is a HUGE understatement. Spurgeon was a great preacher, but he made errors, especially calling Calvinism the gospel. That is a monumental error.

We can turn that also this way by what Spurgeon said that if Calvinism isn't preaching the Gospel it is not Calvinism. Some people are not preaching the Gospel in how they see Calvinism.

The reason being is that Spurgeon said the Bible and the Bible alone is the religion of the protestant.

 

[Greektim]

Oh, oops! I pray for the Father to draw, the Holy Spirit to convict, and for Jesus to save.

Even though I think your understanding of "draw" is a bit flawed, I'll go with it. What causes God to draw someone all the way vs. someone who completely rejects? Certainly you are praying for the first and not hoping for the second. If the first, then why not just attribute the entire work to God and leave human volition out?

 

[Van]

Four pages and counting!

What does the Bible say about praying for the lost. Scripture anyone!

Pray for God to do our bidding? Please God instill faith via irresistible grace in those you chose to save before time began?

How about please soften the heart of so and so?

What we have here is twaddle, pure and simple.

 

[Greektim]

Four pages and counting!

What does the Bible say about praying for the lost. Scripture anyone!

Pray for God to do our bidding? Please God instill faith via irresistible grace in those you chose to save before time began?

How about please soften the heart of so and so?

What we have here is twaddle, pure and simple.

If you look back, I provided Rom. 10:1. Is that twaddle?

So do you pray for God to soften the heart? If so, do you pray hoping God softens the heart to the point where he knows it will bring about a change or a softening that does not lead to repentance? If the first, then isn't that Calvinistic? If the second, then why bother?

 

[Yeshua1]

If Calvinism is true, who is to be saved and who is not was determined before the foundation of the world, your prayer is absolutely vain, it cannot change anything.

We are to intercede and pray for all those that we interact with, to give them the good news, for while God alone knows if he will be saving that person, we do not, so we continue to preach/teach/witness to all for Jesus, and God will do His part in saving out His own people!

 

[Yeshua1]

Spurgeon was absolutely inconsistent with Calvinism here. In Calvinism, God has determined before the foundation of the world who will be saved, all the rest are passed by. Your prayers cannot change a thing.

You need to get off Spurgeon, he was a man just like any other, and OFTEN taught error. This is a perfect example.

Calvinism, at least non hyper form, does indeed teach that we are to preach/teach/pray for salvation of all, as we cannot know just whom are the ones God elected out to receive eternal life thru jesus!

 

[Winman]

Calvinism, at least non hyper form, does indeed teach that we are to preach/teach/pray for salvation of all, as we cannot know just whom are the ones God elected out to receive eternal life thru jesus!

You can pray all you want, won't change a thing. In Calvinism God has already chosen who will be saved before the foundation of the world. Everyone else will be passed by. Your prayer is absolutely meaningless.

 

[steaver]

Even though I think your understanding of "draw" is a bit flawed, I'll go with it. What causes God to draw someone all the way vs. someone who completely rejects? Certainly you are praying for the first and not hoping for the second. If the first, then why not just attribute the entire work to God and leave human volition out?

The Father draws all men towards Jesus Christ.....

John6:24 - "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

John12:32 - "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

Matt22:14 - "For many are called, but few are chosen."

I do not leave human choice out of it because God ordained that men should have a choice. A real choice, not a man must choose death, that is not a choice. God pleads with men to choose Him....

Luke13:34 - "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!"

 

[Greektim]

If you look back, I provided Rom. 10:1. Is that twaddle?

So do you pray for God to soften the heart? If so, do you pray hoping God softens the heart to the point where he knows it will bring about a change or a softening that does not lead to repentance? If the first, then isn't that Calvinistic? If the second, then why bother?

I repeat since no one is actually addressing this issue that I'm raising.

How a Calvie prays should be its own thread.

 

[steaver]

If you look back, I provided Rom. 10:1. Is that twaddle?

So do you pray for God to soften the heart? If so, do you pray hoping God softens the heart to the point where he knows it will bring about a change or a softening that does not lead to repentance? If the first, then isn't that Calvinistic? If the second, then why bother?

The problem with your inquiry is that God knows who will say yes and we do not. So yes we pray for God to draw for this is His will that He should draw and we should pray, thus, we are doing God's will by praying for the lost to be saved, even knowing our prayer isn't forcing God nor forcing man, but the prayer is causing effects, for God works through prayer.

Now if I pray "hoping God softens the heart to the point where he knows it will bring about a change", is this Calvinistic? If you prayer is mere "hope" it could change a situation then that prayer is the same as an Arminian prayer, is it not?