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Non-Calvinists: Best argument?
- Thread starter Isaiah40:28
- Start date
cowboymatt
New Member
Again, Judas is wrapped up in the entire "send Jesus to the cross" deal.
And what would it mean anyway that God predetermined to use some evil people? What are driving at here?
And what would it mean anyway that God predetermined to use some evil people? What are driving at here?
cowboymatt said:
As someone who believes in the compatibility view, that is, man is 100% responsible for his action while at the same time accomplishing the predetermined will of God.
This is what I see in Luke 22:22.
Consider Joseph's journey to Egypt: His brother meant it for evil, but God meant it for God.
I know you're an NIV guy, so here's it in the NIV:
And now, do not be distressed and do not be angry with yourselves for selling me here, because it was to save lives that God sent me ahead of you. 6 For two years now there has been famine in the land, and for the next five years there will not be plowing and reaping. 7 But God sent me ahead of you to preserve for you a remnant on earth and to save your lives by a great deliverance. (Gen 45, emphasis mine)
Notice that his brothers were 100% involved, but God was also 100% involved.
cowboymatt
New Member
That makes enough sense to me.TCGreek said:
My point through all of this is that from my perspective I have free will and I am involved 100 percent. I do not doubt that God is involved in our lives, but we can't control that or know exactly how that works. So why don't we just live from our perspective.
cowboymatt said:
I rather live with both in mind; it's comforting to me to know that God is in control and works all things out according to the purpose of His will:
"And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose" (Rom 8:28, NIV, emphasis mine).
cowboymatt
New Member
True. Thanks for the exchange TCG!
Best arguements?
I'm not sure why you set this up since this is something that is ALWAYS stated over and over and over and over and et..., in every C/A debate. They are views that have been debated if not hotly debated over the last 500 years and still with no resolve.
If people wanted to see the arguments just let them look in ANY one of hundreds of threads.
The said however here are what some of the best arguments have always been:
1. Regeneration is AT salvation not before
2. Unlimited Atonement is the biblical model of the Atonement sacrifice
3. Grace is resistable.
The real arguments are actaully about the mechanics of the above truths and not the truths themselves.
The other two points (depavity and Preserverence of the Saints) are not so much argued by the majority. I know that they are argued by a some but it is limited.
I'm not sure why you set this up since this is something that is ALWAYS stated over and over and over and over and et..., in every C/A debate. They are views that have been debated if not hotly debated over the last 500 years and still with no resolve.
If people wanted to see the arguments just let them look in ANY one of hundreds of threads.
The said however here are what some of the best arguments have always been:
1. Regeneration is AT salvation not before
2. Unlimited Atonement is the biblical model of the Atonement sacrifice
3. Grace is resistable.
The real arguments are actaully about the mechanics of the above truths and not the truths themselves.
The other two points (depavity and Preserverence of the Saints) are not so much argued by the majority. I know that they are argued by a some but it is limited.
Last edited by a moderator:
Just a quick clarification - I am not a follower of Calvin.cowboymatt said:
I guess I haven't seen the logical end of T.D. leading to God causing men to sin, unless you are talking about a brand of Hyper-Calvinism that says God works evil into his creatures the same way he works good.
cowboymatt
New Member
I'm not talking about a particular brand of Calvinism, I'm thinking about the logical end of predestination and total depravity. I'm not saying that Calvin said these things or that any of his follower have. What I am saying is that I am not okay with the logical ends of some of Calvin's doctrines.Andy T. said:
JustChristian
New Member
Best argument:
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Isaiah40:28
New Member
I was interested in what each side thought was the "best" argument for their position.Allan said:
Who cares if there are 100's of similar threads. Different people participate each time, plus, perhaps someone may be convinced of the other's view through the exchange.
JustChristian
New Member
jcjordan said:
I take this scripture at face value. I do not filter it through the views of a theologian. That is if ANYONE believes on Christ he will be saved. And ANYONE can.
webdog said:
'Whoever' more properly means 'those who' . No one 'can' of their own power . You can't get that from John 3:16 . We already know from other parts of Scripture that people have the inability to turn to the Lord on their own ( to put it mildly ) .
I disagree that Calvinism teaches that. Particular election dictates that only a preselcet few can be saved. The Bible teaches all can be saved. The Bible teaches all have Salvation availiable to them and the only thing that keeps men from being saved is rebellion.jcjordan said:
MB