"Non-Christian Hymns?"

[JonathanDT]

Originally posted by Molly:
I can think of a few:

The terrible chorus: "I could sing of your love forever"....it could be sung to anyone. Plus,it is just untasteful and repetitious and yuk! ...

Have you ever really paid attention to the lyrics?
Over the mountains and the sea,
Your river runs with love for me,
and I will open up my heart
and let the Healer set me free.
I'm happy to be in the truth,
and I will daily lift my hands:
for I will always sing of when
Your love came down.

I could sing of Your love forever,
I could sing of Your love forever,
I could sing of Your love forever,
I could sing of Your love forever.

Oh, I feel like dancing -
it's foolishness I know;
but, when the world has seen the light,
they will dance with joy,
like we're dancing now.

I have a hard time believing you would sing that to anyone. Sure the chorus is repetitious, but so are some hymns, if you'd like I can post some lyrics as examples. Besides, do you think that God is in heaven getting bored with us singing our love to him repeatedly???
As for "untasteful", your right, they actually have the nerve to mention dancing.

A ton of contempo songs....Point of Grace has a ton of songs that never mention Christ..."Sing a Song","Your name is on my lips,your love I can't resist",etc....

Avalon's "You are my Oxygen" Among others. We have this CD because of the song Glory,which is a good song,but the others are not biblical at all....

These are all CCM songs meant for entertainment, edification, and sometimes for evangelism, NOT for use in a church service. I don't hear anyone complaining because Bach and Mozart didn't mention God in their songs. Why? Because their music was meant purely for entertainment, and everyone recognizes that fact(and of course because I don't believe they ever included lyrics, but that's beside the point ).

As for the what makes a song "Christian," I believe it is a combination of factors, including but not limited to: Lyrics, intent of the singer, heart of the singer, focus of the singer. Obviously I put the most emphasis on the singer, IMO if they are worshipping God many songs can be used even if they don't mention any of the Trinity by name.
God Bless,

~JD

[ October 04, 2002, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: JonathanDT ]

 

[JonathanDT]

Oops, double post.

[ October 04, 2002, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: JonathanDT ]

 

[Molly]

Yes,JonathanDT,I agree those ccm songs are strictly for entertainment,but when they are labeled christian,they should at least *be* christian in it's text. And,some think it is okay to use some of these types of songs in corporate worship.

Believe me,I have paid very close to the lyrics of that song and many others that are *praise* songs. I do not see Jesus's name mentioned nor anything about God in Word or name in that particular song. It is about the most superficial song related to God I have ever heard or sung.

Thanks for your questions and comments.

 

[Rev. G]

I have a hard time believing you would sing that to anyone. Sure the chorus is repetitious, but so are some hymns, if you'd like I can post some lyrics as examples.

Please do, as this thread was started with the intent of discussing "non-Christian" hymns (hymns which really shouldn't be in the hymn book).

Rev. G

 

[Ransom]

Smoke_Eater said:

Ransom, back in the eighties and early nineties, he was the leader of a Christian band called "Allies", which is light years better than his solo stuff.

I'm somewhat familiar with Allies, since our local Christian fluff station occasionally plays some of their music. I wasn't aware until recently that Carlyle was part of the band, though.

 

[Ransom]

Molly said, concerning Delirious' "I Could Sing of Your Love Forever":

I do not see Jesus's name mentioned nor anything about God in Word or name in that particular song.

Who is "the Healer"?
Who is being referred to by the pronouns "you" and "your"?

 

[Molly]

healer could be Buddha,Muhammad,whoever you'd like to place in the blank.

You can mean anyone.

It may be understood clearly in your heart when you sing it,but it is not a biblical song,nor does it fit what a spiritual song should be in my opinion.

It all refers to a low view of God and a high view of man.

 

[Music Man]

Originally posted by JonathanDT:
and I will open up my heart
and let the Healer set me free.

I have never really understood this part of the song. I mean, if I can "let" someone set me free, was I truly in need of freedom to begin with? Just wondering?

Originally posted by JonathanDT:
I don't hear anyone complaining because Bach and Mozart didn't mention God in their songs. Why? Because their music was meant purely for entertainment, and everyone recognizes that fact(and of course because I don't believe they ever included lyrics, but that's beside the point).

Actually, for much of his life, Bach was a church musician. Bach wrote quite a bit of the music used in churches today while he was the music director at a couple of churches in Leipzig. So, while in Leipzig, he was writing quite a bit specifically for use in church every Sunday. He was also, evidently, quite a man of God, a true student of the Word.

As far as Mozart goes, he did write some things for use in churches, like Masses, etc. I don't believe though, that he was a believer, I could be wrong. You are probably right about Mozart then. I would say all the music he wrote was really just to make money.

Originally posted by JonathanDT:
As for the what makes a song "Christian," I believe it is a combination of factors, including but not limited to: Lyrics, intent of the singer, heart of the singer, focus of the singer. Obviously I put the most emphasis on the singer, IMO if they are worshipping God many songs can be used even if they don't mention any of the Trinity by name.

I am not certain how a song with lyrics that have nothing to do with God, magically becomes "Christian" if a Christian, with a pure heart, and a focus (whatever that is), sings it. Maybe I misunderstood your point?

Soli Deo Gloria,
Chris

BTW, on Bach's manuscripts, he frequently wrote "SDG" at the bottom, which stood for Soli Deo Gloria. He did strive to do all to the glory of God alone!

[ October 04, 2002, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Music Man ]

 

[Ransom]

Molly said:

healer could be Buddha,Muhammad,whoever you'd like to place in the blank.

You can mean anyone.

I don't mean anyone. Martin Smith does. What was his intention when he wrote the song?

 

[Molly]

Then he should say what he means and mean what he says....

Ditto what Music Man said!

 

[Ransom]

Molly said:

Then he should say what he means and mean what he says....

I'd say he did exactly that.

But God forbid we might have to THINK about what we're singing.

 

[Molly]

Hey

,we are actually on the same page here! That is exactly what I am saying...there should be more biblical depth,more Truth about Christ,*more* to think about.

If the song is about Christ,let's mention Him.

How about a song about being chosen of God,His holiness,the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom,Christ's death,you know...docritnal things in biblcal language using biblical terms,that's what I think we need more of.

 

[Johnv]

...what about songs in our hymnals / chorus books? Are there songs that we sing during worship that are actually inappropriate...What is it that makes a song actually "Christian"?[/QB]

How's about "Morning Has Broken"?

Not a christian hymn, but certainly inspirational and appropriate. And, I might add, found in many hymnals.

 

[Johnv]

How about "The Star-Spangled Banner"? It's in our hymnal!

Actually, if you look at the third or fourth verse, you'll see the line:

And this be out motto - In God is Our Trust!!

I love the star spangled banner. It not inapropriate at all. Unfortunately, one nees a 6 octave range to sing it properly

 

[Ransom]

Molly said:

If the song is about Christ,let's mention Him.

Smith does. Your complaint is really that he didn't pander to the Dick and Jane audience because he used a metaphor.

As I said, God forbid that we should have to consider the words we are singing, rather than just rattle them off knowing there's a "Jesus" in there somewhere.

docritnal things in biblcal language using biblical terms,that's what I think we need more of.

1. God's love is biblical.
2. Why should Christian songwriting be limited to using Biblical imagery if the songwriter can express biblical thought in original language?

 

[Molly]

Biblical language is better than any original language that we can come up with. JMO.

 

[Ransom]

Ah, well, since it's just your opinion, we're not bound by it, are we?

 

[Helen]

Good grief, you two! Should someone come along and say, "Now, children...."

Getting back to the thread, which is an interesting one, my husband and I have the opportunity to visit a number of churches during his trips. Sometimes he's the one who gives the sermon. There are some new songs we have heard which bother us both. I don't know their names, but they present very poor doctrine which I think must be confusing to many people who actually listen to what they are singing rather than listening for who is off key or whatever. The songs often have to do with earning heaven or what a man must do, etc. More and more we are seeing a tendency to concentrate on man rather than Christ in a number of churches. It is a very sad thing.

On the flip side of the song/hymn thing, though, are the number of popular songs which idolize the lover to such an extent that we (my husband and I) have no trouble at all changing just one or two words and turning them into hymns of praise or love of Christ!

And one which has ALWAYS reminded me more of Christ than of any living person is "Bridge Over Troubled Water."

I think maybe we have some mixed up people out there?

 

[Molly]

Ransom,

No,you are not.

I was thinking about stating the fact that it is just my opinion. We may not agree and that is okay. My opinion is based on lots of study on this topic and I keep coming back to the Holiness of God and the fear of the Lord....for some reason some of the new songs do not include this. They are more cool for man to sing and hear. I can appreciate a new song,as long as the content is biblical and it points us to the text,not the style. But,like I said before,that is me and what I have learned. It is okay that you see it differently.

[ October 04, 2002, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: Molly ]

 

[Molly]

But,because of these differences I would probably have to attend a different church than you.