Noncals main flaw

[Luke2427]

The problem with every noncalvinist is this: He has man as the measure of all things rather than God. What is good for man is the definition of good and what is bad for man is the definition of bad.
God HAS to offer salvation to every single man of the fallen human race because that is what is good for man... and what is good for man is the essence of good. If God does not do what is good for man, then God is not good.
Noncalvinists see man as God. They really do. They don't mean to. But they think God can only be good if he has man's welfare as a high priority. But where are the tears for the fallen angels? Noncals have no tears for them. They do not care about them. They do not think Jesus has to die for Satan and his ilk. Why? Because noncals are not angels- they are people. And to noncals only PEOPLE really matter because that is what they themselves are. God does not have to do ANYTHING for Satan. "Let him go to HELL!!! You don't have to die for him!! But you DO HAVE TO DIE FOR ME!!! Why? Because I AM THE MEASURE OF GOOD AND EVIL. Do what is good for me and mine or you are evil and I will not worship you!"
But the fact is that the welfare of neither angels NOR men is the measure of good and evil. God is the measure. What is good is that which pleases him. What is evil is that which displeases him. And if you don't like him because he does not die to save you and everybody like you... well... maybe you are evil. Maybe, in fact, that is the very DEFINITION of evil.

 

[Rippon]

Rather brutal there Luke. You said some things I can agree with --but WOW --you are pugnacious.

"Every non-Cal" this or that --really? Every single one of em'?

Each and every non-Calvinists view man as God?

I am engaging in understament here --Luke,you are overstating your case.

I think you want your thread closed down quickly. Tread more lightly next time.

 

[Luke2427]

The reason I say "every" is not to be "brutal" (which is itself a tremendous overstatement) but because it is so. I was a Free Will Baptist minister for more than a decade. I was educated in a free will baptist institution. I loved God and served him faithfully during those years. But that does not change the fact that in my thinking I had man as the measure of good and evil and I thought God's goodness was defined by how God treated man. Whether I meant to or not, in my thinking I had man as God. Now, I was going to heaven all the while. I hadGod's hand on my ministry the whole time. But I still had as my fundamental thinking MAN as the measure of good and evil. The reason I could not accept Calvinism is because I could not accept the idea that God would not do this and that for man.

I could not FATHOM a God who would not bend over backwards to do whatever he could to save man. I did not know it, but I was inadvertently putting man in God's place and God in man's. had switched the roles. That is what noncalvinists do. Most of them, fine folks, do it inadvertantly, but they do it nonetheless.

 

[steaver]

The problem with every noncalvinist is this: He has man as the measure of all things rather than God. What is good for man is the definition of good and what is bad for man is the definition of bad.
God HAS to offer salvation to every single man of the fallen human race because that is what is good for man... and what is good for man is the essence of good. If God does not do what is good for man, then God is not good.
Noncalvinists see man as God. They really do. They don't mean to. But they think God can only be good if he has man's welfare as a high priority. But where are the tears for the fallen angels? Noncals have no tears for them. They do not care about them. They do not think Jesus has to die for Satan and his ilk. Why? Because noncals are not angels- they are people. And to noncals only PEOPLE really matter because that is what they themselves are. God does not have to do ANYTHING for Satan. "Let him go to HELL!!! You don't have to die for him!! But you DO HAVE TO DIE FOR ME!!! Why? Because I AM THE MEASURE OF GOOD AND EVIL. Do what is good for me and mine or you are evil and I will not worship you!"
But the fact is that the welfare of neither angels NOR men is the measure of good and evil. God is the measure. What is good is that which pleases him. What is evil is that which displeases him. And if you don't like him because he does not die to save you and everybody like you... well... maybe you are evil. Maybe, in fact, that is the very DEFINITION of evil.

Although this does sound like a Cal in the blissfulness of ignorance, I will give him the benefit of the doubt and ask for some quotes from the non cals he has debated to see if this pov has any merit. As far as the angels goes, they had their choice, and they made it, and God sealed it. As He does with people throughout time and will ultimately do at the end of the age.

 

[steaver]

The reason I say "every" is not to be "brutal" (which is itself a tremendous overstatement) but because it is so. I was a Free Will Baptist minister for more than a decade. I was educated in a free will baptist institution. I loved God and served him faithfully during those years. But that does not change the fact that in my thinking I had man as the measure of good and evil and I thought God's goodness was defined by how God treated man. Whether I meant to or not, in my thinking I had man as God. Now, I was going to heaven all the while. I hadGod's hand on my ministry the whole time. But I still had as my fundamental thinking MAN as the measure of good and evil. The reason I could not accept Calvinism is because I could not accept the idea that God would not do this and that for man.

I could not FATHOM a God who would not bend over backwards to do whatever he could to save man. I did not know it, but I was inadvertently putting man in God's place and God in man's. had switched the roles. That is what noncalvinists do. Most of them, fine folks, do it inadvertantly, but they do it nonetheless.

One question for you brother, are you declaring to God that He, in His Sovereignty, is NOT permitted to design a salvation plan which gives His creation a freewill choice between life and death?

 

[padredurand]

The reason I say "every" is not to be "brutal" (which is itself a tremendous overstatement) but because it is so. I was a Free Will Baptist minister for more than a decade. I was educated in a free will baptist institution. I loved God and served him faithfully during those years. But that does not change the fact that in my thinking I had man as the measure of good and evil and I thought God's goodness was defined by how God treated man. Whether I meant to or not, in my thinking I had man as God. Now, I was going to heaven all the while. I hadGod's hand on my ministry the whole time. But I still had as my fundamental thinking MAN as the measure of good and evil. The reason I could not accept Calvinism is because I could not accept the idea that God would not do this and that for man.

I could not FATHOM a God who would not bend over backwards to do whatever he could to save man. I did not know it, but I was inadvertently putting man in God's place and God in man's. had switched the roles. That is what noncalvinists do. Most of them, fine folks, do it inadvertantly, but they do it nonetheless.

I was educated in the bastion of Free Will education at a United Methodist seminary and served within the denomination for 14 years. I believe I am qualified to make this one comment. Your rant is unmitigated balderdash.

 

[Revmitchell]

I was educated in the bastion of Free Will education at a United Methodist seminary and served within the denomination for 14 years. I believe I am qualified to make this one comment. Your rant is unmitigated balderdash.

As most of his are.

 

[steaver]

But that does not change the fact that in my thinking I had man as the measure of good and evil and I thought God's goodness was defined by how God treated man. Whether I meant to or not, in my thinking I had man as God. .

This is so odd and contrary to the Word of God I do not know how anyone whether Cal or non Cal could have such a thought.........and just because you made such a scriptural error does not mean "every" one has made the same mistake as you did.....

 

[Crabtownboy]

The problem with every noncalvinist is this: He has man as the measure of all things rather than God. What is good for man is the definition of good and what is bad for man is the definition of bad.
God HAS to offer salvation to every single man of the fallen human race because that is what is good for man... and what is good for man is the essence of good. If God does not do what is good for man, then God is not good.
Noncalvinists see man as God. They really do. They don't mean to. But they think God can only be good if he has man's welfare as a high priority. But where are the tears for the fallen angels? Noncals have no tears for them. They do not care about them. They do not think Jesus has to die for Satan and his ilk. Why? Because noncals are not angels- they are people. And to noncals only PEOPLE really matter because that is what they themselves are. God does not have to do ANYTHING for Satan. "Let him go to HELL!!! You don't have to die for him!! But you DO HAVE TO DIE FOR ME!!! Why? Because I AM THE MEASURE OF GOOD AND EVIL. Do what is good for me and mine or you are evil and I will not worship you!"
But the fact is that the welfare of neither angels NOR men is the measure of good and evil. God is the measure. What is good is that which pleases him. What is evil is that which displeases him. And if you don't like him because he does not die to save you and everybody like you... well... maybe you are evil. Maybe, in fact, that is the very DEFINITION of evil.

Totally untrue. We see God as loving us enough to allow us to make choices. We see God as a loving, caring God who will do away with sin, suffering and pain in his own good time. We do not see him as a monster, as Calvinists do, responsible for every evil act that occurs.

 

[Bro. James]

God saves whosoever He wills for His good pleasure. Eph. 1:1-23. Carefully ponder: vss. 4,5,6,9,10,11, He facilitates salvation every step of the way, including faith to believe, starting from The Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world--also before Lord Calvin. See: Eph. 2:8-10.

The names are already in The Book--from the beginning.

I know of at least one out there who is non-cal and non-arm, aka: a Sovereign Grace.

There are probably more. The remnant does seem to be shrinking. Jesus has not lost one--He is faithful even when we are not.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

 

[Luke2427]

I was educated in the bastion of Free Will education at a United Methodist seminary and served within the denomination for 14 years. I believe I am qualified to make this one comment. Your rant is unmitigated balderdash.

ad hominem

 

[Luke2427]

This is so odd and contrary to the Word of God I do not know how anyone whether Cal or non Cal could have such a thought.........and just because you made such a scriptural error does not mean "every" one has made the same mistake as you did.....

When you require that God's goodness means that he has to die for sinners, you make man's welfare the definition of God's goodness.

 

[Revmitchell]

ad hominem

You do not know what an ad hominem is.

 

[Luke2427]

You do not know what an ad hominem is.

That's funny... because this post is ad hominem.

 

[Revmitchell]

The op is a childish rant that has no foundation in scripture, it is the ravings of a sophomoric intellect, and only works to inflame those whose view is not of his own and is not deserving of any actual intelleigent response.


Now! That is an ad hominem. You need to study up on your fallacies.

 

[Luke2427]

The op is a childish rant that has no foundation in scripture, it is the ravings of a sophomoric intellect, and only works to inflame those whose view is not of his own and is not deserving of any actual intelleigent response.


Now! That is an ad hominem. You need to study up on your fallacies.

Rev, this is another ad hominem post. It seems that that is all your intellect is capable of mustering.

If you were a decent person you would make an argument. It is trashy JUST to ever do nothing but ad hominem.

Now you've got me doing it! HAHAHAHA!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Totally untrue. We see God as loving us enough to allow us to make choices. We see God as a loving, caring God who will do away with sin, suffering and pain in his own good time. We do not see him as a monster, as Calvinists do, responsible for every evil act that occurs.

A monster?!? :laugh:

 

[Rippon]

A monster?!? :laugh:

Finney and Wesley said the same about "the god of the Calvinists." It's an old blasphemy.

But I would really like for CTB to document any Calvinist saying that God is a monster. Like I said it's really blasphemous.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

As most of his are.

So why dont you guys just ignore him? Dont you know by now that much of his commentaries are meant to provoke this type of dialog? Of course you do!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I am not going to make further comments on this thread, nor even open it again. It is a lightning rod for negativity.