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Norm Geisler on Caner
- Thread starter Paul33
- Start date
AntennaFarmer
Member
I checked it out. Unless I missed something that isn't quite the thing either. He has some short, snips of Caner talking then some commentary on it. I feel the need for primary sources so that I can consider the case carefully.
Perhaps a church or independent organization has unedited Caner speeches recorded where I can examine what he said about himself on various occasions.
As you know it it is possible through editing to make him say whatever you like. We need to show that the unedited stuff isn't taking Caner out of context.
A.F.
Not to mention eyewitnesses. Tons of them. People who grew up with the Caners to people who heard them at Gatlinburg (just down the road from me) or Jax or Prestonwood.
James White has played numerous clips of Caner over the last few months. You can searc here:
http://www.aomin.org/results.html?c...mjl0&cof=FORID:11&q=ergun+caner&sa=Search#915
Here is another that has followed the saga and documented most of it:
http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/search/label/Ergun Caner
Yet another: http://kerussocharis.blogspot.com/#uds-search-results
Listen to the lies here: http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2010/07/watchdogs-response-to-geisler-listen-to.html and here: http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2010/04/ergun-caner-growing-up-i-learned-about.html
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Tom Bryant
Well-Known Member
Why are so many people so interested in Caner? It seems that this has more lives than a cat. Is he that big a deal? He certainly isn't that big a deal in SBC life. He isn't a big deal in IFB life.
There are people on both sides who just can't seem to let it go. It seems that the Caner detractors want him drawn and quartered. It seems like the caner Supporters want him elected Pope.
It's not that I think that integrity in ministry is unimportant. So please don't accuse me of that. But this has gone on and on and on and on and on and on...
There are people on both sides who just can't seem to let it go. It seems that the Caner detractors want him drawn and quartered. It seems like the caner Supporters want him elected Pope.
It's not that I think that integrity in ministry is unimportant. So please don't accuse me of that. But this has gone on and on and on and on and on and on...
There are continuing lessons to be learned from the on-going Caner saga.
We who want the right and biblical thing to be done are certainly in the minority. Caner has lied and deceived thousands over almost a decade of "ministry." We can't let this simply pass. Liberty doesn't get to call all the shots.
I'm glad you agree with that major idea which seems to be minimized by many on the pro-Caner side.
And it will continue to go on until Caner comes clean and repentsd publically. Also, those in positions of power who have tried to stonewall the issue -- or demean those who want the truth to come to light need to repent or leave the "ministry" altogether.
Tom Bryant
Well-Known Member
What would he need to do to repent to your satisfaction?
To whom would he need to repent?
Tom Bryant
Well-Known Member
Maybe I am reading too much into your comments about "we who want the right thing..." and "those who want the truth to come to light..." but you sure don't sound like you're coming at this in the spirit of meekness in Galatians 6:1. You sound like you're coming at this in a spirit of superiority.
I am really trying to understand what both sides are saying. But the Caner supporters seem to act like he's done nothing wrong other than a few unintentional wrong statements. Your side seems to want him to sit in sack cloth and ashes after he's come personally to your house and beg forgiveness.
First of all, it is too bad that this has to be referred to as "your side" as if there are two sides. There should only be one side. The truth.
Secondly, those calling for repentance are calling for just that - repentance. A leader in Christianity has misrepresented himself. Liberty University and Ergun Caner need to deal with this issue publicly, because it is public! Ergun Caner needs to say, "I'm sorry. I misrepresented who I am for nine plus years, and for that I repent. I ask for your forgiveness."
That's what the truth is calling for. I will never understand how Christian leaders caught in sin can deny the essence of the Gospel that they have preached. When you sin, you confess your sin, apologize, and where able, you make restitution. Instead, Caner denies sinning, reducing his actions to misstatements and discrepancies.
Caner's attempt at diffusing this issue included the statement, "I have never intentionally misled anyone." That is categorically false. His misrepresentations were designed to mislead. He did mislead and it was intentional. He needs to repent and apologize. That is what the truth requires.
Paul33,
Did you get to meet and talk with Ergun Caner while you were at LU? If so, what was your honest opinion of him at that time?
Did you get to meet and talk with Ergun Caner while you were at LU? If so, what was your honest opinion of him at that time?
John, one of the problems with all of this is that people are judging the situation based on what people think of the guy's personality.
I for one thought Bill Clinton had a great personality in the White House. Better that both of the presidents since him. However that does not change the things that he did wrong.
Same Caner. He is a talented speaker. If he were not there would not be as many people defending him. He makes people like him.
But he is a liar.
None of us want harm (at least I hope none do, perhaps there are some that do) but I for one and many others want first for the truth to be defended and second for Caner to repent and to be forgiven.
When (if?) Caner repents, then we will see who really wants restoration and who wants a pound of flesh.
I for one thought Bill Clinton had a great personality in the White House. Better that both of the presidents since him. However that does not change the things that he did wrong.
Same Caner. He is a talented speaker. If he were not there would not be as many people defending him. He makes people like him.
But he is a liar.
None of us want harm (at least I hope none do, perhaps there are some that do) but I for one and many others want first for the truth to be defended and second for Caner to repent and to be forgiven.
When (if?) Caner repents, then we will see who really wants restoration and who wants a pound of flesh.
Tom Bryant
Well-Known Member
I used the words "your side" because I was addressing what Rippon said.
I am certain that we both believe in integrity and accountibility in ministry. Liberty - after their investigation - believes it has been dealt with. You disagree. That's fine. Caner believes he has apologized - you disagree that an apology is what is needed, that he needs to publicly repent.
You act as if anyone disagreeing with you does not believe in accountibility and repentance. I am certain that all of us do. It just seems that some on the side that he has not repented - if that acceptable? - act as if he needs to go take some factory job to show that he has repented. (Read thru this thread, if you think I am overstating).
I am out of this discussion. I just wanted to try to understand and get past the rhetoric and inflammatory statements on both sides.
I am certain that we both believe in integrity and accountibility in ministry. Liberty - after their investigation - believes it has been dealt with. You disagree. That's fine. Caner believes he has apologized - you disagree that an apology is what is needed, that he needs to publicly repent.
You act as if anyone disagreeing with you does not believe in accountibility and repentance. I am certain that all of us do. It just seems that some on the side that he has not repented - if that acceptable? - act as if he needs to go take some factory job to show that he has repented. (Read thru this thread, if you think I am overstating).
I am out of this discussion. I just wanted to try to understand and get past the rhetoric and inflammatory statements on both sides.
The confession should include the same people as the offense.
I have tried to figure out the official statement from Liberty and how Geisler can state that LU exonerated Caner. The key is apparently that Caner only made misstatements and statements with discrepancies - factual statements that are self-contradictory. So after thinking about it, I do not think that LU dealt with the public "sin" issue.
As to acting a certain way, I disagree. You may disagree with me and I do not assume that you do not care about the truth or accountability.
Below is a web page on Geisler's site. Again, the idea is that Caner was exonerated because:
1. He was a muslim who converted as a teen.
2. He made misstatements and statements with discrepancies - factual statements that are self-contradictory.
3. He did not intentionally lie - no moral intent to deceive. He is an honest person.
http://www.normangeisler.net/insupportofcaner.html
Converted Muslim, Dr. Ergun Caner has been under attack by extreme Muslims and others who have challenged his integrity and character, claiming that he was not a Muslim, let alone a devout one, and that he intentionally made false statements related to his Muslim background and conversion to Christianity.
While Dr. Caner categorically denies these charges, he acknowledges making several misstatements over the past decade for which he publicly apologized on his web site in February, 2010, saying in part, I "never intentionally misled anyone…. For those times where I misspoke, said it wrong, scrambled words, or was just outright confusing, I apologize and will strive to do better."
Ergun's brother Emir (also a converted Muslim) who has been in the best position to know almost all the facts, writes: "Over the past year or so, my brother has sustained an unprecedented and orchestrated barrage of attacks from extreme Muslims and extreme Calvinists. The attackers first attempted to prove that Ergun (and I) were never Muslims, a lie that was easily exposed. Then, their bitter efforts alleged we were never devout Muslims, an attack that even took cheap shots at our father, his devotion to Islam, and his devotion to his family. Documentation including court records once again illustrated their lies. Finally, they are now attacking my brother's character, alleging a few incorrect statements are the equivalent of embellishment and intentional deceit. Through this entire ordeal, my brother has shown an unquestionable Christian character, asking forgiveness for any mistakes and persevering while his entire life was unbiblically placed in front of the world. As his brother, I am prouder of him today than I even was before this situation occurred. His character, integrity, and bold witness are truly an emulation of a shepherd's heart (1 Timothy 3:1-7) and an evangelist's passion (Ephesians 4:11). I am simply grateful to be his brother."—Dr. Emir Caner, President of Truett-McConnell College, Cleveland, GA.
Liberty University (where Dr. Caner teaches) announced: "After a thorough and exhaustive review of Dr. Caner's public statements, a committee consisting of four members of Liberty University's Board of Trustees has concluded that Dr. Caner had made factual statements that are self-contradictory. However, the Committee found no evidence to suggest that Dr. Caner was not a Muslim who converted to Christianity as a teenager…. Dr. Caner will remain on the faculty of Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary as a Professor." ---Liberty University Statement (June 29, 2010, emphasis added)
While Caner's exoneration* from the false charges has not satisfied all his critics, who continue to rehash old criticism, a flood of support has come in for him from noted Christian leaders and others around the country:
"Kregel Publications has concluded that the Kregel titles by Dr. Caner are trustworthy, factually accurate, and helpful to both Christians and seekers wanting to know more about Islamic beliefs and how those beliefs compare and contrast with biblical Christianity." ---Kregel Release July 6, 2010
"[TV host] John F. Ankerberg, who interviewed Caner for more than a dozen television programs, has posted on his website that he is disheartened by the attacks upon his friend's integrity and character. Ankerberg said he believes Caner's testimony is 'completely true.'" ---Christianity Today, posted 7/02/2010
" In a day of negativism and bad news, I am rejoicing today over many things. I rejoice over faithful witnesses of Jesus in a small Ohio Baptist church that loved two Moslem boys to Christ and then encouraged them to live for Jesus. I am grateful to God for the many people that have come to Christ through the witness of those two men. I continually thank God for His unbelievable plan to use sinners and mistake-prone men like the Caners, and even more amazing, people like me, to accomplish some things of great value in His kingdom business. Only eternity will reveal the good that two former Moslems have done. I thank God for them both."--- Dr. Paige Patterson, president of Southwestern Baptist Seminary, Fort Worth, Texas
"I know Dr. Caner and have done a number of apologetics conferences with him, and have witnessed God using Ergun in a powerful way. He has always spoken words of grace to others, and I thus find it disturbing that some have chosen to show NO grace to Ergun in the midst of his current trial. If God only used perfect vessels, who among us would be qualified? I know of none. I urge all those who respect my work to take the word of someone who knows Ergun personally (me): He is a good man with a heart for God." ---Dr. Ron Rhodes, author and President of Reasoning from the Scriptures Ministries
Apologist Dr. Norman Geisler declared: "We posted complete and detailed response to criticisms against Dr. Caner on our website (www.normgeisler.com)." He concluded that, "Having examined all these charges against Dr. Caner carefully and having looked at the related evidence, I can say without hesitation that all of the moral charges against Dr. Caner are unsubstantiated. Further, no one had demonstrated moral intent on any of the factual misstatements he made (which we all make)." He added, "Dr. Caner is a man of honesty, integrity, and loyalty to Christ."---Dr. Norman Geisler, author and Professor of Apologetics at Veritas Evangelical Seminary
"Dr. Geisler's response to the charges brought against Dr. Ergun Caner by some Muslims and other groups has hit the mark. The charges on the surface sounds formidable until they are met with TRUTH, then they quickly evaporate away losing all power to condemn – leaving the accusers to contemplate their actions. Dr. Geisler's responses serve to confirm what I had already known about Dr. Caner's sincere character and tireless efforts to reach the lost with the gospel and equip Christians to defend the faith in a hostile world. Dr. Geisler and Dr. Caner are the two spiritual warriors I would most like next to me in the trenches doing battle for the cause of Christ." ---Dr. Joseph Holden, President of Veritas Evangelical Seminary, Murrieta, CA
_____________________________________________________________________________
*"Tim Rogers of SBC Today (an organ of some Southern Baptist pastors), declared and defended his claim that Ergun Caner was "exonerated" of the charge against him by citing Merriam-Wesbsters definition "to clear from accusation or blame." He wrote, I used "exoneration" in the post announcing the completed investigation of Dr. Ergun Caner…. If one looks at the definition and then looks at the statement released from Liberty University, one has to admit that exoneration is not a stretch. Why? Notice what the statement says; "the committee found no evidence to suggest that Dr. Caner was not a Muslim who converted to Christianity as a teenager [which was the claim challenged by the critics]….Thus, I used the term "exoneration" because according to the statement released by the committee from Liberty University they cleared him from accusation or blame" (Posted June 29, 2010).
1. He was a muslim who converted as a teen.
2. He made misstatements and statements with discrepancies - factual statements that are self-contradictory.
3. He did not intentionally lie - no moral intent to deceive. He is an honest person.
http://www.normangeisler.net/insupportofcaner.html
In Support of Dr. Ergun Caner
By Noted Christian Leaders
Released July 9, 2010
While Dr. Caner categorically denies these charges, he acknowledges making several misstatements over the past decade for which he publicly apologized on his web site in February, 2010, saying in part, I "never intentionally misled anyone…. For those times where I misspoke, said it wrong, scrambled words, or was just outright confusing, I apologize and will strive to do better."
Ergun's brother Emir (also a converted Muslim) who has been in the best position to know almost all the facts, writes: "Over the past year or so, my brother has sustained an unprecedented and orchestrated barrage of attacks from extreme Muslims and extreme Calvinists. The attackers first attempted to prove that Ergun (and I) were never Muslims, a lie that was easily exposed. Then, their bitter efforts alleged we were never devout Muslims, an attack that even took cheap shots at our father, his devotion to Islam, and his devotion to his family. Documentation including court records once again illustrated their lies. Finally, they are now attacking my brother's character, alleging a few incorrect statements are the equivalent of embellishment and intentional deceit. Through this entire ordeal, my brother has shown an unquestionable Christian character, asking forgiveness for any mistakes and persevering while his entire life was unbiblically placed in front of the world. As his brother, I am prouder of him today than I even was before this situation occurred. His character, integrity, and bold witness are truly an emulation of a shepherd's heart (1 Timothy 3:1-7) and an evangelist's passion (Ephesians 4:11). I am simply grateful to be his brother."—Dr. Emir Caner, President of Truett-McConnell College, Cleveland, GA.
Liberty University (where Dr. Caner teaches) announced: "After a thorough and exhaustive review of Dr. Caner's public statements, a committee consisting of four members of Liberty University's Board of Trustees has concluded that Dr. Caner had made factual statements that are self-contradictory. However, the Committee found no evidence to suggest that Dr. Caner was not a Muslim who converted to Christianity as a teenager…. Dr. Caner will remain on the faculty of Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary as a Professor." ---Liberty University Statement (June 29, 2010, emphasis added)
While Caner's exoneration* from the false charges has not satisfied all his critics, who continue to rehash old criticism, a flood of support has come in for him from noted Christian leaders and others around the country:
"Kregel Publications has concluded that the Kregel titles by Dr. Caner are trustworthy, factually accurate, and helpful to both Christians and seekers wanting to know more about Islamic beliefs and how those beliefs compare and contrast with biblical Christianity." ---Kregel Release July 6, 2010
"[TV host] John F. Ankerberg, who interviewed Caner for more than a dozen television programs, has posted on his website that he is disheartened by the attacks upon his friend's integrity and character. Ankerberg said he believes Caner's testimony is 'completely true.'" ---Christianity Today, posted 7/02/2010
" In a day of negativism and bad news, I am rejoicing today over many things. I rejoice over faithful witnesses of Jesus in a small Ohio Baptist church that loved two Moslem boys to Christ and then encouraged them to live for Jesus. I am grateful to God for the many people that have come to Christ through the witness of those two men. I continually thank God for His unbelievable plan to use sinners and mistake-prone men like the Caners, and even more amazing, people like me, to accomplish some things of great value in His kingdom business. Only eternity will reveal the good that two former Moslems have done. I thank God for them both."--- Dr. Paige Patterson, president of Southwestern Baptist Seminary, Fort Worth, Texas
"I know Dr. Caner and have done a number of apologetics conferences with him, and have witnessed God using Ergun in a powerful way. He has always spoken words of grace to others, and I thus find it disturbing that some have chosen to show NO grace to Ergun in the midst of his current trial. If God only used perfect vessels, who among us would be qualified? I know of none. I urge all those who respect my work to take the word of someone who knows Ergun personally (me): He is a good man with a heart for God." ---Dr. Ron Rhodes, author and President of Reasoning from the Scriptures Ministries
Apologist Dr. Norman Geisler declared: "We posted complete and detailed response to criticisms against Dr. Caner on our website (www.normgeisler.com)." He concluded that, "Having examined all these charges against Dr. Caner carefully and having looked at the related evidence, I can say without hesitation that all of the moral charges against Dr. Caner are unsubstantiated. Further, no one had demonstrated moral intent on any of the factual misstatements he made (which we all make)." He added, "Dr. Caner is a man of honesty, integrity, and loyalty to Christ."---Dr. Norman Geisler, author and Professor of Apologetics at Veritas Evangelical Seminary
"Dr. Geisler's response to the charges brought against Dr. Ergun Caner by some Muslims and other groups has hit the mark. The charges on the surface sounds formidable until they are met with TRUTH, then they quickly evaporate away losing all power to condemn – leaving the accusers to contemplate their actions. Dr. Geisler's responses serve to confirm what I had already known about Dr. Caner's sincere character and tireless efforts to reach the lost with the gospel and equip Christians to defend the faith in a hostile world. Dr. Geisler and Dr. Caner are the two spiritual warriors I would most like next to me in the trenches doing battle for the cause of Christ." ---Dr. Joseph Holden, President of Veritas Evangelical Seminary, Murrieta, CA
_____________________________________________________________________________
*"Tim Rogers of SBC Today (an organ of some Southern Baptist pastors), declared and defended his claim that Ergun Caner was "exonerated" of the charge against him by citing Merriam-Wesbsters definition "to clear from accusation or blame." He wrote, I used "exoneration" in the post announcing the completed investigation of Dr. Ergun Caner…. If one looks at the definition and then looks at the statement released from Liberty University, one has to admit that exoneration is not a stretch. Why? Notice what the statement says; "the committee found no evidence to suggest that Dr. Caner was not a Muslim who converted to Christianity as a teenager [which was the claim challenged by the critics]….Thus, I used the term "exoneration" because according to the statement released by the committee from Liberty University they cleared him from accusation or blame" (Posted June 29, 2010).
Giesler uses a book published by Kregal where Caner tells the truth as evidence that Caner is truthful and did not lie. Ironically, it is this very book that established the fact that Caner is lying in his sermons.
Just last year, in Gatlinburg, TN, Caner made the claim that he learned English as an adult in urging immigrants to also learn it. He stated that since he could do it, anyone could do it.
His statements in Gatlinburg were intentionally deceptive and misleading. He led the hearers to think that he learned English as an adult and that it was easy, that they could do it too! The Kregal book, of course, establishes that Caner moved to America in 1969/70. So unless Caner lived in an Arabic speaking home/enclave of Ohio (or was it Turkish? or Swedish?) and never interacted with his English speaking neighbors, he lied. But if he grew up attending American schools and interacted with his English speaking neighbors, he spoke English as a child. He intentionally lied to his listeners JUST LAST YEAR!
Geisler has no legs to stand on. Ergun can't help himself. He just has to lie and Geisler will continue to get burned.
Just last year, in Gatlinburg, TN, Caner made the claim that he learned English as an adult in urging immigrants to also learn it. He stated that since he could do it, anyone could do it.
His statements in Gatlinburg were intentionally deceptive and misleading. He led the hearers to think that he learned English as an adult and that it was easy, that they could do it too! The Kregal book, of course, establishes that Caner moved to America in 1969/70. So unless Caner lived in an Arabic speaking home/enclave of Ohio (or was it Turkish? or Swedish?) and never interacted with his English speaking neighbors, he lied. But if he grew up attending American schools and interacted with his English speaking neighbors, he spoke English as a child. He intentionally lied to his listeners JUST LAST YEAR!
Geisler has no legs to stand on. Ergun can't help himself. He just has to lie and Geisler will continue to get burned.
I was a student before Caner came to LU. I did know and like very much Dr. Jerry Falwell. Jerry made some pretty outrageous statements, but he always apologized.
For some reason I thought you had taught at LU. I know what you mean about Dr. Fallwell I respected him a lot.