Not a Real Christian, etc.

[Helen]

I've read most of the thread, but not all of it. Something came to mind during the reading:

homosexuality IS a particularly heinous sin, and rightfully should be singled out. It distorts the entire person; it is not simply a sinful act. Homosexuality involves a relationship which is at the heart of the life the person leads. It is not a one-time act which the person can separate himself from. A person can steal, or can murder, or can commit adultery, etc. But a person cannot 'homosexual.' A person BECOMES a homosexual, and that is radically different than simply commiting a sin. That is distorting and perverting the entire person God created him (or her) to be.

Unless one is in the Mafia or similar, murderers do not recruit other murderers. Thieves do not recruit other thieves. Even though sin, like misery, loves company, the general rule is not one of recruitment.

Homosexuality is different. Recruitment is necessary because they cannot reproduce themselves naturally. So they strive for adoption and foster parenting "rights", and the "right" to work with children. And we, as a society, are giving them those 'rights', which gives them, as well, an entire pool of potentials from which to recruit.

Thus homosexuality is not only a sin against God, but involves a sin against self and others as well. It is a multiple sin and a life-destroying one. This life here and now; not "just" eternal life.

Any pastor who is willing to tolerate (let alone support) homosexual members of a Christian congregation is also supporting total rebellion against God and the destruction of some of the precious people He created.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Helen:
But a person cannot 'homosexual.' A person BECOMES a homosexual, and that is radically different than simply commiting a sin.

I believe homosexual *acts* are sinful, but I cannot find anywhere in scripture that says being a homosexual (without action) is a sin. "A person cannot 'homosexual'" because 'homosexual' isn't a verb, it's an adjective - the action, and thus the sin, is tied to acts committed not the sexual preference which would lead to those acts.

I am heterosexual. I am heterosexual not because I committed sexual acts with my wife, but because I am sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex. How I act on that, not the tendency itself, determines my sin.

Homosexuality is different. Recruitment is necessary because they cannot reproduce themselves naturally. So they strive for adoption and foster parenting "rights", and the "right" to work with children.

I like you Helen, but that is absurd. Maybe you're right in a few specific instances, but I think in general that's ridiculous, a homophobic myth.
And we, as a society, are giving them those 'rights', which gives them, as well, an entire pool of potentials from which to recruit.

Any pastor who is willing to tolerate (let alone support) homosexual members of a Christian congregation is also supporting total rebellion against God and the destruction of some of the precious people He created.

Again, I disagree. While I again repeat my conviction that homosexual acts are sinful, church is exactly where homosexuals should be. We should welcome them. We should pray for them. We should befriend them. Yes, we should not condone their *actions*, but if only sinless people went to church, well, church would be pretty boring.

No one would be there.

 

[Me2]

Homosexuality is an attitude,
and a sinful lifestyle.

although when any sins expression is not outwardly, it's inwardly.
Much like every other sin is known.

(ie, murder,..hate)

I'd focus more on the envy expressed of christians as they go about judging others and choosing what sins are greater than others.

Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

 

[Helen]

'Homosexual' is both an adjective and a noun. But I don't think that hurt the meaning of what I was trying to get across.

I believe homosexual *acts* are sinful, but I cannot find anywhere in scripture that says being a homosexual (without action) is a sin. "A person cannot 'homosexual'" because 'homosexual' isn't a verb, it's an adjective - the action, and thus the sin, is tied to acts committed not the sexual preference which would lead to those acts.


As Christ pointed out, though, sin starts in the heart, and it is the heart which is judged by God! Thus, the state of mind, or heart, which leads to the homosexual behavior is the core sin. Can there be an act of thievery without the desire to steal? Can there be an act of adultery without the desire? It does not start in the act -- the act is the result. Therefore your argument regarding only the act being judged is contrary to Bible.

And no, it is not absurd to point out the homosexuality needs recruitment. That is exactly how the two friends I am familiar with who needed the Lord's help to wrench themselves out of that lifestyle described how they got involved in it. That is also what they describe as happening within the community; so it is not a matter of what Helen thinks, but of what I have been told by those who have come out of homosexuality.

Finally, I have a feeling you might be bored with heaven, for only sinless people will be there...

And church is for believers. It is not really supposed to be a recruitment for non-believers.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Helen:
As Christ pointed out, though, sin starts in the heart, and it is the heart which is judged by God! Thus, the state of mind, or heart, which leads to the homosexual behavior is the core sin. Can there be an act of thievery without the desire to steal? Can there be an act of adultery without the desire? It does not start in the act -- the act is the result.

I agree with this. I'm not saying sin cannot be committed in the heart. A homosexual can lust just as easily as a heterosexual can. But just because I am a heterosexual does not mean I am therefore in sin because I have the potential to lust, the ability to desire adultery, etc. The homosexual "tendency" is not in and of itself sin, although I would say it is an aspect of the fallen state of creation as a whole. Consider: a homosexual man accepts Christ as his saviour. At the moment of salvation, the man is washed of all sin, righteous before God. Yet for some reason, God did not magically convert him to a heterosexual at the moment of conversion: the man repents of past sin, accepts God's gracious gift, loves Jesus, but is still tempted in the future to commit homosexual lust or homosexual sin, and is *never* tempted to commit heterosexual lust or heterosexual sin. Why is that?

And no, it is not absurd to point out the homosexuality needs recruitment. That is exactly how the two friends I am familiar with who needed the Lord's help to wrench themselves out of that lifestyle described how they got involved in it. That is also what they describe as happening within the community; so it is not a matter of what Helen thinks, but of what I have been told by those who have come out of homosexuality.

Like I said, maybe you're right in a few specific instances. But that is not what my experience is, that is not what "I have been told" by those *still in* homosexuality. My gay Christian friends, weeping in my arms, told me they would never chose to be gay, they would never try to make someone else gay, and they desire to be straight. With God's help, they try to live for him, abstain from homosexual sin, and repent and ask for God's forgiveness when they do stumble (as we all do).

 

[Helen]

Like I said, maybe you're right in a few specific instances. But that is not what my experience is, that is not what "I have been told" by those *still in* homosexuality. My gay Christian friends, weeping in my arms, told me they would never chose to be gay, they would never try to make someone else gay, and they desire to be straight. With God's help, they try to live for him, abstain from homosexual sin, and repent and ask for God's forgiveness when they do stumble (as we all do).

I am in NO position to argue with these folk! But what was in my mind was not those who repent and abstain, but those involved in an active homosexual lifestyle.

I do agree that we are born with some tendencies. Anger needs to be controlled; selfishness needs to be controlled, etc. Homosexuality may indeed be a born-in tendency, for the Bible speaks of God 'giving them over' to it -- and if it were not there in the first place, they could not be given over to it. So it is not your friends I am thinking of, actually, and I pray God gives them the strength to truly live for Him in all they think and say and do and are.

But they are not the ones I had in mind when I posted...

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Helen:
But what was in my mind was not those who repent and abstain, but those involved in an active homosexual lifestyle.

I agree, but I thought the question was not about "active" lifestyle, but about the sinfulness of being "homosexual", active or not. You earlier said "A person BECOMES a homosexual, and that is radically different than simply commiting a sin." You said my "argument regarding only the act being judged is contrary to Bible." You were speaking about the tendency, not the actions resulting from that tendency.

So it is not your friends I am thinking of, actually, and I pray God gives them the strength to truly live for Him in all they think and say and do and are.

Thank you.

It saddens me that many take the opposite approach.

 

[Helen]

Just for the sake of clarification, let me try this to see if I am making any sense in the way I see it:

A person may be born with homosexual tendencies (I don't know if this is true, but it may be), but does not BECOME a homosexual until he gives in to them. Homosexuality is an identity.

A person may be born with a volitile temperment, but until he (or she) gives in to it as a matter of lifestyle, he is not an 'angry person.'

Conversely, a person may be born with an ear for music, but unless it is trained, that person will probably never become a musician.

Does that make sense? We have choices regarding the tendencies we are born with. On the positive side we can 'bury our talents' one way or another. On the negative side, we can permit and even nurture our negative tendencies. The tendency is not the sin or even the 'glory' (used in quotes because all real glory belongs to God and I couldn't think of a better word right off the bat) -- it is what one does with it which will be regarded either way.

A person fighting homosexual tendencies will, of course, NOT recruit and not be actively involved in that lifestyle. And I do know that the more such individuals look to Christ in their every moment, the farther they will be separated from even the tendency. Christ does that with all our negative tendencies from the moment we are born again in Him.

But the fact is that practicing homosexuals who are accepted by Christians in terms of their lifestyles are being encouraged in those lifestyles because "God loves me anyway." And the fact is that they do recruit -- especially when they figure it is not 'really' a sin.

And that is the part of Joshua's material which I find most repulsive. In not speaking out against that which is in rebellion against God, he is encouraging it. I think God will be holding him very much responsible for what he is doing.

 

[John Wells]

Originally posted by Helen:
But the fact is that practicing homosexuals who are accepted by Christians in terms of their lifestyles are being encouraged in those lifestyles because "God loves me anyway."

That sums up what the majority of outspoken BBers are up in arms about, not gays seeking to overcome their sin like we all are seeking to overcome sin in our lives.

It was addressed elsewhere in another thread about sexual sins being "special sins." The Word says:

Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body. (1 Corinthians 6:18-20)

Committing a sexual sin compared to another sin is like going into the Holy of Holies (inner temple) and committing a sin!

 

[tyndale1946]

GOD KNOWS ALL!... And we don't!... I will not tell you about my life because very few would believe what I have to say... But I will say this we are made by what we experience whether it is by our consent or not!... The sins of the fathers are visited upon the children to the third and forth generation... Is a scripture we need to highlight and underline and you don't just wake up one day and say well I'm delivered from that... It don't happen that way... It is a gut wrenching tearing your soul from one end of hell to the other experience and if you have never been there you don't want to go... Btw there are HELLS here on this earth and if you don't think so look around you!... It is only by God's grace and loving kindness I didn't perish along time ago... But before you go pointing the finger at someone else look in the mirror and consider yourself... Unless you've walked in their shoes you know nothing as you think you do... Are these not God's children too?... GOD KNOWS ALL ABOUT THEM!... And we don't unless they tell us their story and then we want to condemn them because they had to live it!... By the grace of God goes any of his children and God never forgets us even though sometimes his children do forget each other and think they are better than the other one... We are ALL saved by the same JESUS!

... Let's not forget that!... Brother Glen

[ June 29, 2003, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by John Wells:
Committing a sexual sin compared to another sin is like going into the Holy of Holies (inner temple) and committing a sin! [/QB]

But this is only true for Christians. Without Christ in their lives, they do not have the Spirit in them. This verse does not apply to non-Christians.

This also leads to another question. Why are we so focused on homosexuality, which, for the vast majority of us, is not found within our church, and yet we remain so silent as a group on divorce, adultery, pre-marital sex, pornography, and so on - all of which are sexual sins that happen with our congregants everyday? Why focus on homosexuality and leave these four mostly silent?

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by John Wells:
It was addressed elsewhere in another thread about sexual sins being "special sins." The Word says: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body. (1 Corinthians 6:18-20)

Committing a sexual sin compared to another sin is like going into the Holy of Holies (inner temple) and committing a sin! [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]And one more thing - this verse doesn't say anything about the sin being "worse" in the eyes of God at all. I almost missed that.

 

[John Wells]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
This isn't a war to fight by demeaning, pointing fingers, of slandering. The only way to fight is to show them the love of Christ. To do that, we cannot continue the Christian politics of the last 30 years. We must reach out to them instead

Most even ultra-conservative Christian circles will and do reach out to homosexuals who come with the attitude that they are sinners in bondage in need of a savior to free them from that bondage, resulting in a new creation free of sexual immorality.

It's the idea of "come just as you are, and let me remain just the way I am" attitude that creates the "Christian fight" against "gay rights" today. The teaching of repentance is sorely lacking as a whole in the body of Christ. Those who profess Jesus as their Savior need to know that He will one day judge ALL sin impartially, and "the wages of sin is death."

Since you call on a Father who judges each man’s work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear. For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. (1 Peter 1:17-19)

Those who do not feel the least bit compelled to rid their lives of sin trample the redemptive work of "the precious blood of Christ." They do not live their lives in "reverent fear" of God's wrath concerning sin. It is not a true believer's perfection that proves our salvation (all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God) but rather our hating our imperfections and seeking, with God’s help and power, to correct them. In his inmost heart, the genuine Christian longs to speak and do only those things that are holy, pure, loving, honest, truthful, and upright, things that are uncorrupted and unstained by the world. This trait of a true believer is not evident in GLBTs who proudly (as in Gay Pride) flaunt and proclaim their sexual orientation that God calls an abomination! Even worse are pastors and congregations (churches) who condone and encourage them!

But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. (Matthew 18:6)

 

[latterrain77]

Originally posted by Michael Estes:
...Pray that you don't get me for a judge on that Day! I promise you that, if you continue down this path, you will receive the just penalty for your perversion of the Word.

Hi Michael. Haven't you already judged him? (Matt. 7: 1, Rom. 2: 1). latterrain77

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by John Wells:
Most even ultra-conservative Christian circles will and do reach out to homosexuals who come with the attitude that they are sinners in bondage in need of a savior to free them from that bondage, resulting in a new creation free of sexual immorality.

But sinners do not just "come." How can they until they first hear of God's love for them? Conservatives have far too often sat back and waited for sinners to come to them, instead of reaching out to them, in the way that Christ did. The rhetoric from the Christians are often so filled with hatred that why would they come? Words such as "queer," "fag," and so on and so on are spoken far too often by Christians, just as the n-word and such were used for so long to refer to those with a different color skin.

It's the idea of "come just as you are, and let me remain just the way I am" attitude that creates the "Christian fight" against "gay rights" today.

Oh, please! Christians will say they are at war with homosexuals who aren't Christian. The vast majority of them are not focused upon gay Christians - they are focused upon sinners who are blind to the Truth of God.

The teaching of repentance is sorely lacking as a whole in the body of Christ.

In all sins. Not just homosexuality.

Those who profess Jesus as their Savior need to know that He will one day judge ALL sin impartially, and "the wages of sin is death."

And the question remains - why do we not speak of the other sins, such as premarital sex, adultery, divorce, hatred, bigotry, envy, jealousy, anger, and these other sins that are destroying the church from the inside, since all sin will be judged impartially?

Those who do not feel the least bit compelled to rid their lives of sin trample the redemptive work of "the precious blood of Christ."

What about the teenager who accepts Christ and still finds himself attracted to pornography. What about the alcoholic who accepts Christ and struggles to rid himself of the alcoholism. What about the angry parent who accepts Christ and still deals with anger. It is my hope that homosexuals come to Christ, and through the PROCESS of "being saved" (as salvation continues through to our death) that the sin begins to lose that stranglehold.

They do not live their lives in "reverent fear" of God's wrath concerning sin.

Neither do those who deal with remarital sex, adultery, divorce, hatred, bigotry, envy, jealousy, anger, and these other sins. Why not get as upset with these sins as the homosexuality?

It is not a true believer's perfection that proves our salvation (all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God) but rather our hating our imperfections and seeking, with God’s help and power, to correct them.

Which is a process.

In his inmost heart, the genuine Christian longs to speak and do only those things that are holy, pure, loving, honest, truthful, and upright, things that are uncorrupted and unstained by the world.

Not always. If this were true, the Christian would not sin. The sinful nature STILL remains, even after following Christ - we are immediately made holy by God, though, at the same time we are BEING MADE holy. Holiness is such an interesting topic - I would encourage people to read "The Pursuit of Holiness" by Bridges.

This trait of a true believer is not evident in GLBTs who proudly (as in Gay Pride) flaunt and proclaim their sexual orientation that God calls an abomination! Even worse are pastors and congregations (churches) who condone and encourage them!

There are many Christians who do not believe that premarital sex is okay, while others think it is a sin. There are many Christians who believe in baptizing infants. while others see this as disobedience to Christ's commands. There are many Christians who still drink, while others think it is a sin. Some think abortion is okay in certain circumstances - others do not. Some thing masturbation is a heinous sin - others do not. Some think it is okay for a Christian to listen to secular music, others do not. I don't know of anyone, other than those who were inspired to write the NT, who has gotten the Christian life and what is and is not allowed completely perfect. I imagine that we will all discover that some of our theology wasn't exactly correct. In the same manner, those who believe that homosexuality is okay in a monogamous relationship truly believe that. I do not.

However, I am not in the position to say that God's grace cannot cover that person. That is for God to judge. I am not in the position to say that God's grace cannot cover a person that has never been immersed after accepting Him. That is for God to judge. I am not in the position to say that God's grace cannot cover those who drink. That is for God to judge.

It boils down to God, who is their judge. I would encourage you to have a conversation with a homosexual Christian who remains in a relationship after conversion - not to argue, but just to listen. I think you'd be surprised at what you'd find.

 

[John Wells]

Scott,

You said, "they are focused upon sinners who are blind to the Truth of God."

Isn't that the Great Commission?

Our church teaches repentance for the whole gammut of sins. We happen to be in a focused discussion about one sin - homosexuality, from which you digress greatly! The statements I make can and should be applied to all sin and sinners.

Scott said, "I would encourage you to have a conversation with a homosexual Christian who remains in a relationship after conversion - not to argue, but just to listen. I think you'd be surprised at what you'd find."

Since I'm more interested in helping a baby Christian get a good start on the sanctification process, I would listen to their thoughts and concerns, but I would tell them that now that they belong to God, now that they are a child of God, they should seek to be conformed to His image. There is no place for sexual immorality in the image of God.

I would help pick them up when they stumble in their sin, but I would NEVER tell them it's OK to give up the fight to overcome it and succumb to it (the same thing I would do helping anyone with any sin).

BTW, I have talked to a number of Ex-homosexuals who have been freed from their former bondage. One of these speaks at major colleges. He says that once your love for Christ exceeds your love for self, kicking homosexuality becomes easy through the power of Christ in you. There is hope at the foot of the cross!

 

[Pastor Chet]

It boils down to God, who is their judge. I would encourage you to have a conversation with a homosexual Christian who remains in a relationship after conversion

There is no such thing! When a homosexual repents and is truly converted he will leave his sodomite perversion behind. There are no truly converted practicing homosexuals, only false converts who think they are saved because people tell them rhey are saved because they repeated some words to prayer or had some other experience. Now they continue in their sin , still on their way to hell, while you come along and feed their mistaken delusion by convincing them that God loves and accepts them and they are a christian and a sodomite.
chet

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Why are we so focused on homosexuality, which, for the vast majority of us, is not found within our church, and yet we remain so silent as a group on divorce, adultery, pre-marital sex, pornography, and so on - all of which are sexual sins that happen with our congregants everyday? Why focus on homosexuality and leave these four mostly silent?

Maybe you need a new church??? Churches I know of are preaching against all of these, more than homosexuality because these are the things we face.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by John Wells:
[QB] Scott,

You said, "they are focused upon sinners who are blind to the Truth of God."

Isn't that the Great Commission?

There is al arge difference between preachers who are preaching behind their pulpit about how terrible homosexuals are, and then going out into the world and loving them like Christ.

Our church teaches repentance for the whole gammut of sins. We happen to be in a focused discussion about one sin - homosexuality, from which you digress greatly! The statements I make can and should be applied to all sin and sinners.

But my point - and it has been my point from the beginning - is that we focus so much on homosexuality to the point where we ignore many of the other sins.

Since I'm more interested in helping a baby Christian get a good start on the sanctification process, I would listen to their thoughts and concerns, but I would tell them that now that they belong to God, now that they are a child of God, they should seek to be conformed to His image. There is no place for sexual immorality in the image of God.

What if they disagree? What then?

I would help pick them up when they stumble in their sin, but I would NEVER tell them it's OK to give up the fight to overcome it and succumb to it (the same thing I would do helping anyone with any sin).

I wouldn't either, but at the same time, if you listen to them, you will understand that they are dealing with their sins, just like others who convert deal with theirs.

BTW, I have talked to a number of Ex-homosexuals who have been freed from their former bondage. One of these speaks at major colleges. He says that once your love for Christ exceeds your love for self, kicking homosexuality becomes easy through the power of Christ in you. There is hope at the foot of the cross!

Dennis Jernigan is another who was redeemed from his life of homosexuality, and now he writes and performs praise and worship songs. It is important to note that not all people are able to give it up so fast.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Pastor Chet:
[QB] </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> It boils down to God, who is their judge. I would encourage you to have a conversation with a homosexual Christian who remains in a relationship after conversion

There is no such thing! When a homosexual repents and is truly converted he will leave his sodomite perversion behind. There are no truly converted practicing homosexuals, only false converts who think they are saved because people tell them rhey are saved because they repeated some words to prayer or had some other experience. Now they continue in their sin , still on their way to hell, while you come along and feed their mistaken delusion by convincing them that God loves and accepts them and they are a christian and a sodomite.</font>[/QUOTE]Let us rephrase this and see if you agree with it:

There is no such thing! When a person who gets angry with her children repents and is truly converted he will leave her anger sin behind. There are no truly converted people who get angry, only false converts who think they are saved because people tell them rhey are saved because they repeated some words to prayer or had some other experience. Now they continue in their sin in getting angry, still on their way to hell, while you come along and feed their mistaken delusion by convincing them that God loves and accepts them and they are a christian and a person who gets angry at their children.

What is the difference here? Are you willing to tell those people who convert and still deal with anger problems the same thing?

What sins do you still commit, Chet? Are you still saved in spite of those sins? Why single out homosexuality?[/b}