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Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 37818, Jan 13, 2022.

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  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    ". . . Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. . . ."
     
    #121 37818, Feb 2, 2022
  2. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    And you have to show HOW the you includes Judas in the light of the REST of Scripture.
     
    #122 Reformed1689, Feb 2, 2022
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Those Scriptures are being denied too. It makes little difference. Christ saves and secures the salvation of those who believe and are born from God.
     
    #123 37818, Feb 2, 2022
  4. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    I dont believe judas partook of the lords supper, I believe he had left following the passover meal which was at the same table. But even if he was there and heard the words, Jesus wasnt talking to him personally but the other 11.

    And your stance here confirms that you dont believe that Christs death produces a saving result for them He died for.
     
    #124 Brightfame52, Feb 2, 2022
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    That is the result of that position. A powerless savior.
     
    #125 Reformed1689, Feb 2, 2022
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Well, what you believe is from the irregular churches. Luke wrote in order and from above, per Luke 1:3. And John makes it clear Judas was there, the supper being ended. This view changed in the regarding John's account do what I understand is bad scholarship.
     
    #126 37818, Feb 2, 2022
  7. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Because it does not fit your narrative?
     
    #127 Reformed1689, Feb 2, 2022
  8. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly !
     
    #128 Brightfame52, Feb 3, 2022
  9. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    I have said what I had to say about that friend.
     
    #129 Brightfame52, Feb 3, 2022
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The particular redemption is not denied in the general redemption.

    1 John 2:2, ". . . And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. . . ."

    1 Timothy 2:6, ". . . Who gave himself a ransom for all, . . ."

    2 Corinthians 5:14, ". . . we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: . . ."

    As anyone can see and understand, the Scripture explicitly teaches the general redemption.

    Luke 22:20-21, ". . . saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. . . . "

    Deuteronomy 18:19, ". . . And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. . . ."
     
    #130 37818, Feb 3, 2022
  11. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Anyone can see you took those verses out of context of their passages and ignored the whole of Scripture.
     
    #131 Reformed1689, Feb 3, 2022
  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    What is my narrative? I take the Bible as the authority as to what I came to believe. Not from those who disagree with it's clear teachings.
     
    #132 37818, Feb 3, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2022
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Out context? No. From contexts, yes. Everyone who cited a text does that.
     
    #133 37818, Feb 3, 2022
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    There is no evidence that the concept of the general redemption is not true. Nor that the Biblical general redemption disallows it's particular redemption. Both things are true about the redemption.
     
    #134 37818, Feb 3, 2022
  15. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Its a contradiction.
     
    #135 Brightfame52, Feb 3, 2022
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    What do you see as a contradiction and why?
    I see both general redemption and particular redemption as true without contradiction.
     
    #136 37818, Feb 3, 2022
  17. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Except Jesus said he laid his life down for the sheep.
     
    #137 Reformed1689, Feb 3, 2022
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    That is not in dispute. The general redemption includes the sheep. The particular redemption is exclusively the sheep. In neither are the sheep excluded.
     
    #138 37818, Feb 3, 2022
  19. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand how you think you can have both at the same time. When you say general redemption, what do you mean? Maybe I am missing something here.
     
    #139 Reformed1689, Feb 3, 2022
  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I am of the persuasion Christ bought the gift of salvation, that being the general redemption for all humanity. Specifically to secure His sheep. The lost will have no excuse. 2 Corinthians 4:3-4. Matthew 7:21-23. 2 Peter 2:17-22.
     
    #140 37818, Feb 3, 2022
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