Not Believing and still Get to Heaven?

[Revmitchell]

All the verses on this have been quoted. Perseverance is evidence of salvation; it does not provide salvation. Someone who has truly known our Glorious Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ could never turn away.

Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out
Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

 

[drfuss]

Martin writes:
==More famous than Billy Graham? Wow :laugh:


Yes, Billy Graham is certainly much more famous.

But Billy Graham doesn't have a teaching type ministry on the air. I meant Stanley was the most famous SBC minister with a teaching ministry on the air.

 

[J. Jump]

What passage(s) would you use to prove that salvation comes with one moment of belief?

Ephesians 2:8-9, Acts 16:30-31.

Does your position allow for a person to believe at a point in time, be saved, and later become an atheist and still be saved?

No my position, but the what the Bible says, and I believe what the Bible says. You are saved the very moment you beieve. It is a done deal never to be reversed.

I agree that salvation occurs at a point in time (Jn 5:24)

John 5:24 doesn't prove that salvation is a one-time event, because the hearing and believing are both in the present tense which means a continual hearing and a continual believing, but at the moment those stop then the life spoken of stops.

So it's either not talking about eternal salvation, or security is a farce.

If you want to see evidence of salvation as a one-time event in John you can go to John 1:12. Those that received Him. Those that sealed the deal. It wasn't a continual believe it was a receive Him and then let's move on to the next subject.

however perseverence in the faith is a evidence of true salvation (Jn 8:31).

John 8:31 certainly doesn't say that. He said for those that had believed Him that IF they continued in His Word they would be His disciples.

Our eternal salvation is not dependant on whether or not we stay in His Word and become His disciples.

Our eternal salvation is dependent only on whether we at some point before we die believe that He died and shed His blood as our Substitute so that our sin debt would be paid. That is it.

So....what does that do to John 3:16 in your understanding? Give me your understanding of John 3:16.

John 3:16 is addressed to believers, who if they continue to believe in Christ as the Son of God (the one that is going to rule and reign, because that's what sonship has to do with) then they will not die, but if at some point during their Christian walk they stop believing in Christ as the Son of God then the will die and lose life for the age.

When you compare Scripture with Scripture that is talking about one losing their soul. You can lose your life (soul) now and find it in the age to come or you can save your life (soul) now and lose it in the age to come.

Its not what a first class condition means though. I have not seen you deal with that fact yet.

Do you think it means "since" instead of if?

since indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

Is that how you read the passage?

 

[Martin]

Ephesians 2:8-9, Acts 16:30-31.

==Ok, Let's look at those two verses.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" -Eph 2:8-9

The verse is talking about a past event in their lives. At one point in time, in the past, they were saved. The verse does not address the issue of perseverence as John 8:31 (etc) does. Are you trying to use an argument from silence? Since this verse says nothing about perseverence thus you are concluding that perseverence is not true?

"and after he brought them out, he said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? They said, Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household" Acts 16:30-31

Same thing here. The verse is talking about the moment of salvation and does not address the issue of perseverence.

Perseverence is a result of the salvation event.

I said:
Does your position allow for a person to believe at a point in time, be saved, and later become an atheist and still be saved?

No my position, but the what the Bible says, and I believe what the Bible says. You are saved the very moment you beieve. It is a done deal never to be reversed.

==I don't believe salvation can be reversed (Jn 6:37-39). You are denying the Biblical fact that those who are saved continue. In fact that is part of the evidence that a person is really saved. I will continue to use John 8:31 to show that point since Jesus was talking to those who "believed" in Him (vs31). Then He goes on to explain to them that they are children of the devil (vs44) because they don't see that they are slaves to sin (vss32-47). I will also use Hebrews 3:14 which says, "we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end". Note that the writer of Hebrews is saying that we share in Christ if we persevere. Therefore if a person does not share in Christ, they will not continue. Again, perseverence is a sign of true salvation. Colossians 1:21-23 makes this point very clear.

John 5:24 doesn't prove that salvation is a one-time event, because the hearing and believing are both in the present tense which means a continual hearing and a continual believing, but at the moment those stop then the life spoken of stops. So it's either not talking about eternal salvation, or security is a farce.

==Actually I think you are reading way too much into the verse.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My Word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment but has passed out of death into life" John 5:24

The verse does not say that if a person (could) stop believing that the eternal life they have (as a gift) would end. In fact the verse says the exact opposite. Those who believe (present tense) have eternal life and will not come into judgment. Salvation cannot be reversed. Those who have eternal life believe, and those who believe have eternal life. God's eternal election will stand since His sheep will follow (continue to follow) Him (Jn 10:27). He will not allow one of His to be lost (perish) but will raise them all up on the last day (Jn 6:37-39). Salvation is secure. True saving faith does not end, for its author and perfecter (He completes our faith) is Jesus Christ Himself (Heb 12:2). In fact Ephesians 2:8-9 makes this point clear as well. What is the gift of God? Grace, faith, and salvation. The whole package is the gift of God. Those who are true believers persevere unto the end (Jn 8:31).

The statement you made above shows that you have bought into the error promoted by those who believe in a conditional security. What is that error? That the present tense equals a condition. That simply is not so. The context of those present tense verses shows no condition. In fact, using John 10:27 as an example, Jesus uses the present tense to show that His Sheep continue to follow Him. It is a sign that they are truly His sheep (Jn 10:2-6). I would urge you to reconsider your position here.

If you want to see evidence of salvation as a one-time event in John you can go to John 1:12. Those that received Him. Those that sealed the deal. It wasn't a continual believe it was a receive Him and then let's move on to the next subject.

==Wait a second. I thought you said the Gospel of John did not talk about eternal life (salvation)? Was not that your position?

You said:

"The gospel of John is not dealing with eternal salvation, so those three don't prove your point." (post #14 in this thread)

So which is it? Does it not deal with eternal salvation, or does it? Or is it the case that since John 8:31, 10:27 (etc) does not agree with your position you are saying the "gospel of John is not dealing with eternal salvation"?

Also the term "believe" in John 1:12 can be translated "believing". So I am trying to figure out why you are now using this verse in an attempt to disprove perseverence.

Salvation happens at a moment in time (it is a one time event) but one of its fruits (results) is perseverence.

John 8:31 certainly doesn't say that. He said for those that had believed Him that IF they continued in His Word they would be His disciples.

==No, what He said was, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine" . Perseverence is a sign of true salvation, of being a true disciple of Christ.

Our eternal salvation is not dependant on whether or not we stay in His Word and become His disciples.

==It is a fruit of eternal salvation. I reject the notion that a person can believe in one moment, later become an atheist, and still die and goto heaven. Those who truly believe, who truly come to Christ, continue in Christ. I like what John MacArthur said,

"That is a damning lie. No one who denies God should be deceived into thinking that because he once professed faith in Christ, he is eternally secure...I am committed to the Biblical truth that salvation is forever. Contemporary Christians have come to refer to this as the doctrine of eternal security. Perhaps the Reformers' terminology is more appropriate; they spoke of the perseverance of the saints. The point is not that God guarantees heaven to everyone who professes faith in Christ, but rather that those whose faith is genuine will never totally or finally fall away from Christ. They will persevere in grace unto the very end. Even if they fall into grievous sins or continue in sin for a period of time, they will never abandon the faith completely...Professing Christians who turn against the Lord only prove that they were never truly saved. As the Apostle John wrote, 'They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us (1John 2:19). No matter how convincing a person's testimony might seem, once that person becomes apostate, he or she demonstrates irrefutably that the testimony was hypocritical and the professed salvation was spurious. God will keep His own" -"The Gospel According To Jesus", Revised Expanded Edition, pg105.

Do you think it means "since" instead of if?

since indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

Is that how you read the passage?

==I am not sure the "since" is the best way to translate the text because the term "since" would seem to indicate they are saved because they persevere. The point of the verse, as Paul wrote it, is that they are saved and will be presented holy, blameless (etc), but this is only true of them if they continue. If they are saved, they will continue.

 

[J. Jump]

The verse is talking about a past event in their lives.

It was a past even, done deal. Meaning there is no need to persevere in regard to eternal salvation. At the very moment one believes eternal salvation becomes a non-issue. Perseverance is a totally new issue. Eternal salvation is not even in the picture after that moment.

The verse does not address the issue of perseverence

Why is that? Because perseverance is a non-issue when it comes to eternal salvation. Saved individuals do not perservere in hopes that they may some day be saved at the end of the journey. Salvation is a done deal at the very moment of belief.

Perseverence is a result of the salvation event.

It's not a guaranteed result.

I don't believe salvation can be reversed

I don't either. Salvation can't be reversed, but someone can stop believing, but their salvation can't be reversed.

are denying the Biblical fact that those who are saved continue.

Because it is not a Biblical fact.

we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end". Note that the writer of Hebrews is saying that we share in Christ if we persevere. Therefore if a person does not share in Christ, they will not continue. Again, perseverence is a sign of true salvation.

Well the first problem have see is that Hebrews is don't dealing with eternal salvtion. It is dealing with faith after eternal salvation.

And the text does not say if a person does not share in Christ, they will not continue. What the text does say is that if we hold fast until the end we will become partakers.

Whether or not we hold fast until the end is a question not a certainty.

The verse does not say that if a person (could) stop believing that the eternal life they have (as a gift) would end.

Here is John 5:24 from the CLV -
"Verily, verily, I am saying to you that he who is hearing My word and believing Him Who sends Me, has life eonian and is not coming into judging, but has proceeded out of death into life.

He who is (currently, right now), hearing My word, and believing (currently, right now)

They are present tense. I'm not reading into the text, I'm merely reading the text. It's present which means it must continue for the next part to be true and any point if the hearing or believing stops then the rest of the statement can not hold true.

the present tense equals a condition. That simply is not so.

Just because you don't believe it and say it isn't so doesn't make it a reality. There are tons of Greek experts that would disagree with you.

Present tense means if that is true and that moment then this. But if it is not true at that moment then this is no longer true.

So which is it? Does it not deal with eternal salvation, or does it?

No it doesn't deal with eternal salvation as an active subject. John mentions people that are saved to prove a point in at least one place if not others. But it's not a book about how to be saved like you want it to be. It's not a book on how to stay saved like you want it to be. I have never wavered on that.

Also the term "believe" in John 1:12 can be translated "believing". So I am trying to figure out why you are now using this verse in an attempt to disprove perseverence.

On the back side of that text the term should be translated believing. I'm talking about the front side that says the ones that received Him (past action, done deal). It is these saved people that He gave the right and the power to become sons of God to the ones that continually believe on Him. The continual believing doesn't have to do with eternal salvation it has to do with be adopted as a son, which has to do with inheritance, which has to to with ruling and reigning, which has to do with the coming kingdom.

Eternal salvation is a one-time event that happened in the past and it becomes a settled matter never to be focused on again.

No, what He said was, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine" . Perseverence is a sign of true salvation, of being a true disciple of Christ.

So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;

I don't make this stuff up. It's in the text. Those that had believed Him. He said IF they continued in His word they were truly His disciples.

Disicpleship is something that comes AFTER salvation. And it is not a guarantee as this verse clearly points out. IF we continue in His word then we are disciples. IF we don't continue in His word then we are not disciples.

It is a fruit of eternal salvation.

No it SHOULD BE a fruit of salvation. It is not a guarantee.

I reject the notion that a person can believe in one moment, later become an atheist, and still die and goto heaven.

Well you can reject it till the cows come home or until you're blue in the face it matters not, but that's what the Bible says. We can either accept what the Bible says or we can believe what we want to believe.

that they are saved and will be presented holy, blameless (etc), but this is only true of them if they continue. If they are saved, they will continue.

You contradicted yourself in the same bit. You say this is only true IF they continue. You even say it is not a guarantee by saying IF. IFs are not certainties. They are could bes, maybes, possibilities.

The text does not say if they are saved they wil continue. It says if they continue they will be presented blamless. This is directed to saved individuals, so it is not discussing their eternal salvation, becuase it has already been taken care of in the past at the very moment they believed. The subject never comes up again.

 

[Martin]

It was a past even, done deal. Meaning there is no need to persevere in regard to eternal salvation.

==The Scriptures teach that true disciples of Christ will follow Christ. True believers don't stop believing (Jn 8:31, 10:27).

Well the first problem have see is that Hebrews is don't dealing with eternal salvtion. It is dealing with faith after eternal salvation.

==Well, here we go again. Is there a New Testament book that does deal with salvation in your view? Or are we going to see another flip/flop like you did on the Gospel of John? If you don't believe Hebrews deals with the issue of salvation...well....I just don't know where to go from here....

"but through His blood, He entered the holy place, once for all, having obtained eternal redemption" Heb 9:12

There are references to salvation all through the book of Hebrews.

And the text does not say if a person does not share in Christ, they will not continue. What the text does say is that if we hold fast until the end we will become partakers.

==To be a partaker is to share in. The verse says that, "we have become partakers of Christ". That is a fact but it is only a fact "if we hold fast". We share in Christ if we hold fast.

Here is John 5:24 from the CLV -
"Verily, verily, I am saying to you that he who is hearing My word and believing Him Who sends Me, has life eonian and is not coming into judging, but has proceeded out of death into life.

He who is (currently, right now), hearing My word, and believing (currently, right now)

They are present tense. I'm not reading into the text, I'm merely reading the text. It's present which means it must continue for the next part to be true and any point if the hearing or believing stops then the rest of the statement can not hold true.

==What??? What I said still applies...

Just because you don't believe it and say it isn't so doesn't make it a reality. There are tons of Greek experts that would disagree with you.

==I can quote tons, and I mean tons, of Greek experts and New Testament scholars who agree with my position. I have based my view on allowing the text to speak for itself. You, on the other hand, are forcing your view on the texts. What view? That certain "books" of the New Testament say nothing of eternal salvation.

Present tense means if that is true and that moment then this. But if it is not true at that moment then this is no longer true.

==The present tense does not automatically equal condition. Context must also be taken into consideration. It is dangerous, and careless, to try to apply the grammer while not paying close attention to the context. I gave the example of John 10:27 here.

No it doesn't deal with eternal salvation as an active subject. John mentions people that are saved to prove a point in at least one place if not others. But it's not a book about how to be saved like you want it to be. It's not a book on how to stay saved like you want it to be. I have never wavered on that.

==Clearly you are not reading what I am saying, or you are reading things into my words that I am not saying. I have never said that it is about "staying saved". So I have no clue what you are talking about here.

On the back side of that text the term should be translated believing. I'm talking about the front side that says the ones that received Him (past action, done deal). It is these saved people that He gave the right and the power to become sons of God to the ones that continually believe on Him. The continual believing doesn't have to do with eternal salvation it has to do with be adopted as a son, which has to do with inheritance, which has to to with ruling and reigning, which has to do with the coming kingdom.

==That is the worst case of eisegesis I have seen in a long, long time. You are dividing the verse (John 1:12) in a way that the text itself does not. The text offers no such division!

Let's note the text...

"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His Name" -John 1:12

You said:
"It is these saved people that He gave the right and the power to become sons of God to the ones that continually believe on Him"

Those who "received Him" He gave the right "to become children of God". But the verse does not stop there, and there is no division (certainly not the type of division you are reading into the text). Even if we go into verse 13 there is no such division of thought. The writer is still thinking of salvation. He gave the right to become the children of God those who received Him, to those who believe in His Name.

Wow....

So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;

I don't make this stuff up. It's in the text. Those that had believed Him. He said IF they continued in His word they were truly His disciples.

Disicpleship is something that comes AFTER salvation. And it is not a guarantee as this verse clearly points out. IF we continue in His word then we are disciples. IF we don't continue in His word then we are not disciples.

]

==Again you are totally misreading the text. What does Jesus say? Does He say "as long as you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine"? No! He says "IF you contine in My word, then you are TRULY disciples of Mine". If you are a disciple, you will continue. It can't be any clearer. As far as disicpleship being something that is not connected to salvation, I find no Biblical evidence for that. Jesus said His sheep are following Him. His sheep, and disciples, are the same thing. Both follow Christ. If you are not a disciple (following Christ) then you are not one of His sheep (Jn 10:26-27).

You contradicted yourself in the same bit. You say this is only true IF they continue. You even say it is not a guarantee by saying IF. IFs are not certainties. They are could bes, maybes, possibilities.

==You clearly have not studied the grammatical/contextual issues that I have mentioned (in relation to the condition of verse 23). Therefore I am not going any further on this point until you do.

 

[J. Jump]

The Scriptures teach that true disciples of Christ will follow Christ. True believers don't stop believing

No that's the opinion you have of Scripture, that that is not what Scripture teaches. You have failed constantly to show that, and you continue to quote John which isn't even dealing with eternal salvation and totally contradicts security if you want to believe it does talk about eternal salvation. Your choice of absolute continuance is not even an available option to choose from.

Well, here we go again. Is there a New Testament book that does deal with salvation in your view?

Not exclusively no. Why would you need an entire book of the Bible to explain something that only takes about three or four sentences? The good news of eternal salvation is the simplest message in the entire Bible.

Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, died and shed His blood on the cross of Calvary to pay the sin debt of those that will believe in His substitutionary death and shed blood.

Wow just needed one sentence although it's kind of long.

Or are we going to see another flip/flop like you did on the Gospel of John?

My position on John has not changed. I never said that John didn't say ANYTHING about eternal salvation. If you read into my statements that then I apologize for miscommunicating my stance, but my stance has not changed.

There are a number of books that contain eternal salvation, but none of them is eternal salvation their primary focus. The focus is what comes after eternal salvation, becuase that is what needs the most time, attention and detail and reminding.

If you don't believe Hebrews deals with the issue of salvation...well....I just don't know where to go from here....

I never said Hebrews didn't deal with salvation. I said it doesn't deal with eternal salvation. See you make the mistake that the vast majority of Christendom makes and that is if you see the word, saved, faith, salvation, etc. you automatically assume it is talking about eternal salvation, but that is not the case.

There is eternal salvation which saves the spirit and then there is the salvation of the soul which saves guess what? You got it - the soul.

You like most others try to combine these two distinct messages into one message and that's why you run into contradictions in the Bible. I know you don't see them as contradictions, because enough people have come before you and twisted, dodged, ignored those tough Scriptures and just basically made up stuff to mesh it all together, and then they convinced themselves its true and taught it to others and on down the line. But their stuff wasn't true then when they made it up and it doesn't hold true today.

There are references to salvation all through the book of Hebrews.

Yes there are some references. I don't think you brought up a good one in Jesus as High Priest because Jesus as Savior sees Jesus as the Sacrifice not the Priest. His Priestly duties are for after salvation when He is an Advocate before the Father making intercession for us when we sin. Because His blood is on the mercy seat then that allows I John 1:9 to be true that if I will confess my sin He is faithful and just to forgive me. He can forgive my lapses, because Jesus is interceeding as my Priest.

To be a partaker is to share in. The verse says that, "we have become partakers of Christ". That is a fact but it is only a fact "if we hold fast". We share in Christ if we hold fast.

Thank you for making my point for me. That's exactly what I've been trying to say. We share in Christ IF we hold fast. IF we don't hold fast we don't share in Christ.

Again this has nothing to do with eternal salvation, because Paul was telling this to saved individuals. So if these saved individuals hold fast they will share in Christ. But if these saved individuals don't hold fast they will not share in Christ.

, on the other hand, are forcing your view on the texts.

Hey if you can't understand what a simple if, then statement is all about I can't help you. If this happens then that happens. If this doesn't happen then that doesn't happen. Are there are equally as many Greek scholars that would agree with what I just said, so do you want to have a battle of Greek scholars? If you want to continue to believe that way that's fine. I don't agree with you, and there are plenty of "highly" educated people, as you would see them, that don't agree with you either.

The present tense does not automatically equal condition. Context must also be taken into consideration. It is dangerous, and careless, to try to apply the grammer while not paying close attention to the context.

You say that, but your views don't express that unfortunately. Context is king. We can't just assign our own context to something and make it so like you are trying to do with John. John's context is not eternal salvation. If you don't want to agree with that that's fine, but I'm not taking things out of context.

"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His Name" -John 1:12

I can't believe I have to explain this again, but maybe the 40th time's the charm you never know

But as many as received Him (saved folks) to them (the saved folks) He gave the right to become children (actually should be sons) of God (because the moment they are saved they become children of God) to those who believe (present tense - continue to believe - are believing) in His name.

If you are not a saved individual you do not get the right to become a son of God. You have to be eternally saved first.

I have never said that it is about "staying saved".

Perserverance means staying saved. You were saved and you wil continue to be saved until the end.

Here's dictionary.com's definition which I thought was interesting: doctrine that those who have been chosen by God will continue in a state of grace to the end and will finally be saved.

Continue in a state of grace. Stay in a state of grace. It doesn't matter how you word it, unless you are going to deny this doctrine as well.

He says "IF you contine in My word, then you are TRULY disciples of Mine".

You really do need to do a study on what the word if means. If is conditional. If you continue this. If you don't continue no this. It really is simple. It's grace school type stuff.

You clearly have not studied the grammatical/contextual issues that I have mentioned (in relation to the condition of verse 23). Therefore I am not going any further on this point until you do.

No I clearly have and you want to make something that a third grader would probably understand and make it some mountain. It's a simple if, then statement, but if you want to continue in your error, so be it, there's nothing I can do to stop you.

 

[Jack Matthews]

We are saved by grace through faith that is initiated by God himself. Therefore, even though a human being may, in the flesh, "stop believing," he can't walk away from his faith, because it is bound to him by grace. It is still there. It is impossible to walk away from, even if a person intellectually denies it. Grace intercedes. We can rebel, we can change our behavior, we can outwardly appear to be a reprobate, but that does not change our spiritual condition. If we can, by our rebellion or behavior, undo grace, then it isn't grace and the blood of Christ is not effectual in the forgiveness of all sin.

 

[J. Jump]

We are saved by grace through faith that is initiated by God himself. Therefore, even though a human being may, in the flesh, "stop believing," he can't walk away from his faith, because it is bound to him by grace. It is still there. It is impossible to walk away from, even if a person intellectually denies it. Grace intercedes. We can rebel, we can change our behavior, we can outwardly appear to be a reprobate, but that does not change our spiritual condition. If we can, by our rebellion or behavior, undo grace, then it isn't grace and the blood of Christ is not effectual in the forgiveness of all sin.

Amen!!!!!!!!!!

 

[drfuss]

Sat. writes:
"Truer words were never spoken. How can any one person possibly speak for all or even mosts Baptists when there is such a diversity of views right here in this forum."


What about the IFB churches? I realize they are all independent and can have different beliefs. I know they have no accepted statement of faith like the SBC so this may be difficult to answer.. However, do they generally agree with the SBC on this issue, with Stanley, or who know?

 

[webdog]

We are saved by grace through faith that is initiated by God himself. Therefore, even though a human being may, in the flesh, "stop believing," he can't walk away from his faith, because it is bound to him by grace. It is still there. It is impossible to walk away from, even if a person intellectually denies it. Grace intercedes. We can rebel, we can change our behavior, we can outwardly appear to be a reprobate, but that does not change our spiritual condition. If we can, by our rebellion or behavior, undo grace, then it isn't grace and the blood of Christ is not effectual in the forgiveness of all sin.

Great post:thumbs:

 

[Martin]

My position on John has not changed. I never said that John didn't say ANYTHING about eternal salvation. If you read into my statements that then I apologize for miscommunicating my stance, but my stance has not changed.

==Actually your words are pretty clear, "The gospel of John is not dealing with eternal salvation, so those three don't prove your point." (post #14 in this thread). I will let those words stand.

I never said Hebrews didn't deal with salvation. I said it doesn't deal with eternal salvation. See you make the mistake that the vast majority of Christendom makes and that is if you see the word, saved, faith, salvation, etc. you automatically assume it is talking about eternal salvation, but that is not the case.

==Actually I don't. However when I see a passage, or section of Scripture, that is talking about the sacrifice of Christ that gives us eternal redemption, and eternal security, I know that he is talking about eternal salvation (Hebrews chpts 8:7 thru 10:39).

There is eternal salvation which saves the spirit and then there is the salvation of the soul which saves guess what? You got it - the soul.

==Where do you find such a division in Scripture?

You like most others try to combine these two distinct messages into one message and that's why you run into contradictions in the Bible. I know you don't see them as contradictions, because enough people have come before you and twisted, dodged, ignored those tough Scriptures and just basically made up stuff to mesh it all together, and then they convinced themselves its true and taught it to others and on down the line. But their stuff wasn't true then when they made it up and it doesn't hold true today.

==That's nice but it means 100% nothing.

Thank you for making my point for me. That's exactly what I've been trying to say. We share in Christ IF we hold fast. IF we don't hold fast we don't share in Christ.

==The "if" means that if we share in Christ we will hold fast. Note, once again, the verse itself..."For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end". What is he saying? He tells his readers that they "have become" partakers of Christ "if" they continue. Not "as long as" they continue, not that they "might" have become sharers in, but rather they have become sharers in Christ (this is true of them if they continue).

Again this has nothing to do with eternal salvation, because Paul was telling this to saved individuals. So if these saved individuals hold fast they will share in Christ. But if these saved individuals don't hold fast they will not share in Christ.

==So your assumption is that because he is writing to professing Christians he can't be talking about eternal salvation? Pretty big assumption, mainly considering some of the strong salvation passages in Hebrews (ex: 10:1-18, etc).

Hey if you can't understand what a simple if, then statement is all about I can't help you. If this happens then that happens. If this doesn't happen then that doesn't happen. Are there are equally as many Greek scholars that would agree with what I just said, so do you want to have a battle of Greek scholars? If you want to continue to believe that way that's fine. I don't agree with you, and there are plenty of "highly" educated people, as you would see them, that don't agree with you either.

==Please name some "greek" scholars who reject the idea of the simple, or, first class condition. I will be waiting.

You say that, but your views don't express that unfortunately. Context is king. We can't just assign our own context to something and make it so like you are trying to do with John. John's context is not eternal salvation. If you don't want to agree with that that's fine, but I'm not taking things out of context.

==That's nice, but again rather meaningless. When you say that John 3:16 has nothing to do with "eternal" salvation, it is hard to take the above statement seriously. John 3:16 is in the context of salvation (vss14-15,17ff) and the terminology also argues for the eternal salvation meaning (perish, believe, judgment, etc).

But as many as received Him (saved folks) to them (the saved folks) He gave the right to become children (actually should be sons) of God (because the moment they are saved they become children of God) to those who believe (present tense - continue to believe - are believing) in His name.

If you are not a saved individual you do not get the right to become a son of God. You have to be eternally saved first.

==Once again, you are putting divisions in the text that simply are not present. Those who "recieve Him" are the same as those who "believe in His Name" according to the text. You are trying to divide it up since your whole argument fails if you don't.

You really do need to do a study on what the word if means. If is conditional. If you continue this. If you don't continue no this. It really is simple. It's grace school type stuff.

==We are talking about Greek, not grammer school english. Bit of a difference.

Still waiting on you to respond to my point about Col 1:21-23. Again I am going no further on this point until you deal with the first class condition that is present there.

 

[Hope of Glory]

==Once again, you are putting divisions in the text that simply are not present. Those who "recieve Him" are the same as those who "believe in His Name" according to the text. You are trying to divide it up since your whole argument fails if you don't.

So, it is your belief that you are spiritually saved by "believing on his name"?

==We are talking about Greek, not grammer school english. Bit of a difference.

It really is grammar school English to an extent. One of my former seminary professors liked to ask, "If you don't understand English, how can I teach you Greek?"

Most people don't understand English well enough to understand what a present, active, participle is, or the aorist tense is. (Although English obviously does not have an aorist tense is, it can be explained in English, and then understood.) There are those on this board who cannot comprehend the meaning of a present tense verb or a plural noun.

As to a conditional sentence, a first class (eij with indicative in protasis; any mood or tense in the apodosis) is traditionally interpreted as "assumed true" and translated as "since" or "because".

But, it is more defensible to call this the construction of "simple condition ": The last part of the statement is true if the first part is true, or the last part is false if the first part is false. Only context can determine if true or not. The construction itself cannot determine if it is true or not. (see James Boyer, "First Class Conditions: What Do They Mean?" Grace Theological Journal, Spring, 1981.)

Example: "If he is studying, he will learn Greek."

Not all First Class Conditional phrases are true"
Matthew 12:27 "And if (since) I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges."
Matthew 26:39 "O my Father, if (since) it be possible, let this cup pass from me: . . ."
1 Cor 15:32 ". . . if (since) the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die."
John 10:37 "If [since] I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.")

A second class conditional (eij with indicative in protasis; an with indicative in apodosis) is contrary to fact. There is little debate about this conditional sentence structure.

Example: "If he had studied. he would have learned Greek."

A third class conditional (eja>n with subjunctive in the protasis; any mood or tense in the apodosis) is traditionally interpreted as "probable future" (Essentials of New Testament Greek, p.109).

It's more defensible to call this the construction of "uncertainty" (see James Boyer, "Third (and Fourth) Class Conditions," Grace Theological Journal, Fall, 1982.)

Example: "If he studies, he will learn Greek."

To translate the third class conditional sentence as "If, and you probably will; would make the last five verses of 1 John contradict themselves. 1 John 1:6-10 are all third-class conditional sentences.)
v.6; "If we say that we are having fellowship..."
v.7; "But if in the light we are walking..."
v.8; "If we say that we have not sinned..."
v.9; "If we are confessing our sins..."
v.10 "If we say that we have not sinned..."

 

[J. Jump]

Martin it is rather obvious that you are not going to accept anyone's point of view other than your own, or someone that has far more "education" than I have, so it is pointless to carry on with you any further.

You have repeatedly been shown the error of your interpretation, and if you want to continue in it that is completely up to you

I just can see goining any further with a person that is just going to say that is nice, but it means 100% nothing.

The Bible is clear about the division between the soul and the spirit (Hebrews 4:12 - Genesis 1). Men are spiritually dead and saved spiritually at the very moment of salvation.

There is nothing to perservere in as far as eternal salvation goes, because it's a done deal. The matter is never brought back up again.

The salvation of the soul comes into play and if we endure to the end, walk in the Spirit, die to self, run the race, finish the race, don't fall away, etc., etc., etc. all the things that a Christian is supposed to do you will realize the salvation of our soul. If we don't do those things we will not.

That is what the NT is about in a nutshell. We don't need 20-plus books to describe a message that I can tell you about in one sentence.

But if you want to believe you need 20-plus books to explain a message so simple a five-year old can understand it then there you go!

 

[Martin]

it is rather obvious that you are not going to accept anyone's point of view other than your own, or someone that has far more "education" than I have, so it is pointless to carry on with you any further.

==That is really interesting. The moment I ask for the names of these greek scholars who agree with you, you cease the discussion. Btw, I have read your webpage and I know you have an Masters of Education degree. So I think we have the same level of education (ie..both MA degrees).

Btw, I don't see you jumping to accept my view. So what you have said above applies just as much to you as it does to me. Am I willing to accept another view? Not unless it can be proven with Scripture. I do not see Scripture supporting your view so no I don't accept your view.

You have repeatedly been shown the error of your interpretation, and if you want to continue in it that is completely up to you

==I am not here for you to show me the error of my "interpretation". This is a debate/discussion board. It should have been clear from the start that, unless you could bring to the table some strong evidence, I was not going to change my view. In fact I was well aware that you were not going to change your view. I have spent alot of this time trying to figure your position out, to be honest.

Btw, for what its worth, I think you are in error. I have repeatedly shown you the error of your interpretation, but if you wish to continue in your error that is up to you.

You see, both of us can do that. :smilewinkgrin:

I just can see goining any further with a person that is just going to say that is nice, but it means 100% nothing.

==Why did I say that? Because I can't get you to deal with the text directly. You bring your many assumptions to the text and then expect me to agree with them. I can't do that. I have to be discussing the text alone first, then we can get to assumptions (etc).

The Bible is clear about the division between the soul and the spirit (Hebrews 4:12 - Genesis 1). Men are spiritually dead and saved spiritually at the very moment of salvation.

==You said that the soul and spirit were saved at different times...

"There is eternal salvation which saves the spirit and then there is the salvation of the soul which saves guess what? You got it - the soul."

What I am trying to figure out is where you get that idea from. Hebrews 4:12 says nothing about that. But then again, in your view, it could not since Hebrews does not talk about eternal salvation...right? I still have not figured out how you reached that conclusion.

There is nothing to perservere in as far as eternal salvation goes, because it's a done deal. The matter is never brought back up again.

==Salvation is done, I agree and have said so time and time again. Perseverence is the result of true salvation. If a person has been truly saved they will persevere. That can be seen in the "if" passages (such as Col 1:23, Heb 3:6,14, etc) and in the promise passages (Phil 1:6, 1Thess 5:23-24, John 6:37-40, etc).

But if you want to believe you need 20-plus books to explain a message so simple a five-year old can understand it then there you go!

==The fact that you still have not deal with the first class greek condition is interesting. I don't know many five year old children who know anything about greek grammer...maybe that is just me though.

 

[Martin]

It really is grammar school English to an extent. One of my former seminary professors liked to ask, "If you don't understand English, how can I teach you Greek?"

==While I agree with your seminary professor's statement I don't agree with yours. We are not talking about grammer school English, we are talking about Greek. While the two share some similarities there are differences between them as well. My point, on "if" statement in Col 1:23, is a point about the greek grammer. The grammer, combined with the verses leading up to verse 23 (ie 21-22), present a very strong case for the first class condition.

As to a conditional sentence, a first class (eij with indicative in protasis; any mood or tense in the apodosis) is traditionally interpreted as "assumed true" and translated as "since" or "because".

==Glad to see you are aware of my position.

But, it is more defensible to call this the construction of "simple condition ": The last part of the statement is true if the first part is true, or the last part is false if the first part is false. Only context can determine if true or not. The construction itself cannot determine if it is true or not. (see James Boyer, "First Class Conditions: What Do They Mean?" Grace Theological Journal, Spring, 1981.)

==I agree, again. I have refered to this as a "simple condition" just as you have. True, I have not quoted a text book (which certainly would make the point better than I can). I have also talked about the importance of context.

Not all First Class Conditional phrases are true"
Matthew 12:27 "And if (since) I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges."
Matthew 26:39 "O my Father, if (since) it be possible, let this cup pass from me: . . ."
1 Cor 15:32 ". . . if (since) the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die."
John 10:37 "If [since] I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.")

==Yes, again I agree. Again the context of those verses makes clear that the statement is not true. In Col 1:21-23 the context argues that the first class condition (simple) does hold up. The same is true for Hebrews 3:14. The context is very important. It is dangerous, and yes careless, to focus on the grammer apart from the context or the context apart from the grammer. Both should be given weight.

Thus I am not sure how this adds to the discussion. In my discussion with J.Jump I was just trying to get him to acknowledge the reality of the first class condition which it "seems" he is unwilling to do. My point was not to get into alot of details (etc) of the first class condition, but rather to show that the context and the grammer does not support the conditional view he is supporting.

 

[blackbird]

No one who truly belongs to Christ can walk away from the faith! All who belong to Him are indwelt by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9) who will finish the good work He began in each of us (Phil. 1:6), which is to transform us into the image of Christ (Romans 8:28-30).

How can God walk away from Himself?

We may be difficult to raise, like some kids are, but all of us who have been born again WILL be transformed by the Holy Spirit. Some of us will need more discipline (Hebrews 12) and some less, but our Lord has not lost one, and will not lose one.

"Believe" as it was used in the Bible is not simply intellectual acknowledgement. The demons know God is for real! (see James). That does not help them a bit. Some claim to be followers and teach and 'do miracles' in Christ's name, but they are taking His Name in vain and are shamming (which comes from the word 'shaman'). Jesus will tell them plainly, "Depart from me...I never knew you." (see the Sermon on the Mount).

Knowing that Jesus exists and believing that FACT is not the same as biblically believing HIM. To believe means to ignore all else and prefer Him, to follow Him, to give one's life to Him. Those who want that will be born again of the Holy Spirit and given a new nature. That new nature will not and cannot walk away from the faith! That person is now a slave to righteousness and is not his own, but belongs to Christ (read Romans).

So Stanley must have been trying to either justify something to himself or trying to make someone else feel better about someone who died or something.

The last point: we cannot judge one another's hearts. We daren't try. Actions and words, yes. The heart of a man, no. That is God's to do.

Sister Helen! Thank you for this post! You are a Lady of the Lord in a true sense!

Brother David
aka Blackbird

 

[J. Jump]

You see, both of us can do that. :smilewinkgrin:

That's exactly why it's time to exit this conversation. You think you have brought strong Scriptural support, but your view makes absolutely no sense. You can't even get past the simple if this happens this that will be true, but if this doesn't happen then that can't be true. I mean if we can't even get past that we are just going to spin wheels, so why bother?

Because I can't get you to deal with the text directly.

That's obviously your opinion and you are entitled to it.

What I am trying to figure out is where you get that idea from.

Well like I said most of the NT is in regard to the salvation of the soul and not eternal salvation as you say. Hebrews 4:12 shows the separation of the spirit and the soul because the spirit has been moved out of the darkness into the light and the soul remains in darkness. It's just like the separation in Genesis 1.

If a person has been truly saved they will persevere.

I know you think you have shown this, but you have shown nowhere in Scripture that this is the case. You use these if/then verses to say something is a certainty which makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Martin]

You use these if/then verses to say something is a certainty which makes no sense whatsoever.

==I am sticking with the first class condition "rule". If you don't agree, like, or understand that "rule" then nothing I can say will chage your mind.

 

[Hope of Glory]

What, then, do you see as the if/then?