Not going to Church???

[easternstar]

We are not Calvinists. We never killed anybody either

I know Primitive Baptists never killed anybody.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I know Primitive Baptists never killed anybody.

Can’t say that about Lutherans, Catholics, Anglicans, Calvinist Puritans. We are a peaceful people. We also hold strictly to Scripture and Grace. And I would dispute this criticism that we aren’t evangelical. Pastor Crouse has told me point blank that if I could find church people in the north who want to know about Jesus he will travel there from Florida to assemble & teach them. Think of all those United Methodists, those PCUSA, these Episcopal's who have been disillusioned and displaced by unbiblical modernism desperately looking for homes where they can again worship the Risen Christ. Their closing their doors is a cry for help by true believers.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

But please notice these words in John 3:8: "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." The wind blows in Africa, Asia, Europe, Greenland Saudi Arabia, Israel etc and over all the earth just as it does in the US of A. So does the Spirit God! No person can prevent or alter the course of the wind; and neither can any person prevent or alter the movement of God's Spirit. He is always effectual in the calling of regeneration.

We should be having on this board discussions about conversion ( what is it?)…regeneration and what is that, and what’s the differences.

I’m aware that my church (the Primitive Baptists) do have these discussions about regeneration and it’s done regularly.

Now if you can’t go then you could always catch a sermon on the internet… that’s truly the Marrow of Modern Divinity ( to borrow a catch phrase.

 

[MrW]

If I could be a Calvinist, I'd choose the Primitive Baptists. I've had a couple of friends who were Primitive Baptists. Primitive Baptists have been kind to me, unlike some other Cavinists I've known.

I grew up in the Primitive Baptist Church. You’re right—they’re good, kind people. I disagree with double predestination.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I grew up in the Primitive Baptist Church. You’re right—they’re good, kind people. I disagree with double predestination.

So do I… not all PB’s and their churches follow this though & you know what I’m talking about brother ie total predestination. I can review that if you wish me to (for the sake of the audience.)

 

[easternstar]

So do I… not all PB’s and their churches follow this though & you know what I’m talking about brother ie total predestination. I can review that if you wish me to (for the sake of the audience.)

I'd be interested in reading your review of that.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'd be interested in reading your review of that.

Sure.. I will take this from a document written by the late great preacher & teacher Hoyt Simms explaination of PB beliefs:

Predestination is that effective exercise of the will of God by which things before determined by Him are brought to pass. God says that at a certain time He is going to do a certain thing. That thing shall be done at that time because God is sovereign, possessing all wisdom and power. Predestination, as presented in Scripture, does not imply that God arranged all things beforehand but it refers solely to the salvation of God's elect. The prefix pre means before. Destination is the end of a journey. Destine means to determine. Predestination means the end of a journey determined beforehand. There is but one destination that was predestinated and that destination is heaven and immortal glory. It is there that all the saints will be conformed to the image of God for this is what God had predestinated. "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Romans 8:29). Paul also writes, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will" (Ephesians 1:5). We are told why the saints are predestinated. "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Ephesians 1:11).

 

[Ben1445]

Sure.. I will take this from a document written by the late great preacher & teacher Hoyt Simms explaination of PB beliefs:

Predestination is that effective exercise of the will of God by which things before determined by Him are brought to pass. God says that at a certain time He is going to do a certain thing. That thing shall be done at that time because God is sovereign, possessing all wisdom and power. Predestination, as presented in Scripture, does not imply that God arranged all things beforehand but it refers solely to the salvation of God's elect. The prefix pre means before. Destination is the end of a journey. Destine means to determine. Predestination means the end of a journey determined beforehand. There is but one destination that was predestinated and that destination is heaven and immortal glory. It is there that all the saints will be conformed to the image of God for this is what God had predestinated. "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Romans 8:29). Paul also writes, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will" (Ephesians 1:5). We are told why the saints are predestinated. "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Ephesians 1:11).

I would agree with that statement very much were the word salvation changed out for adoption. Inheritance is because of and after salvation.
Apart from that, great definition and explanation.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

See Easternstar, I’m a great believer that you should find a church and that church has to be a Grace driven doctrines of grace church and taught for your souls salvation. Now at one time my parents were committed to raising me up in a church that was totally works based salvation, meaning I had to touch all the sacramental bases in order to get to heaven & that’s what they baptized me into. Today I most furvently believe that works based churches are erroneous. I don’t see it in scriptures however I’m not going to imply that people can’t be saved in these types of churches. Because it is the function of the Holy Spirit to convict you I would not claim one church over another… even people who don’t go to church can be saved by the HS.

As for me though, I believe that churches like The Primitive Baptists are endeavoring to attain, at all times,to the doctrine and practices of the true church as outlined in the New Testament. Also the Primitive Baptist are very close in alignment to the Particular Baptist, who hold to the same truth as we PB churches do.

Now presently, I am constricted to going to the church that I really want to go to by geography as there are no Primitive Baptist in my part of the country. However, I can and do attend weekly meetings online so that’s the best I can do at this point. G-D bless you in your search.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

See Easternstar, I’m a great believer that you should find a church and that church has to be a Grace driven doctrines of grace church and taught for your souls salvation. Now at one time my parents were committed to raising me up in a church that was totally works based salvation, meaning I had to touch all the sacramental bases in order to get to heaven & that’s what they baptized me into. Today I most furvently believe that works based churches are erroneous. I don’t see it in scriptures however I’m not going to imply that people can’t be saved in these types of churches. Because it is the function of the Holy Spirit to convict you I would not claim one church over another… even people who don’t go to church can be saved by the HS.

As for me though, I believe that churches like The Primitive Baptists are endeavoring to attain, at all times,to the doctrine and practices of the true church as outlined in the New Testament. Also the Primitive Baptist are very close in alignment to the Particular Baptist, who hold to the same truth as we PB churches do.

Now presently, I am constricted to going to the church that I really want to go to by geography as there are no Primitive Baptist in my part of the country. However, I can and do attend weekly meetings online so that’s the best I can do at this point. G-D bless you in your search.

I guess I should have summarized my thoughts on salvation much more clearly than the previous posting. Tom, one of my hero’s on here who has gone to his glory was keen to emphasize that personal salvation from sin is not the result of man’s good works, but is wholly of G-D’s free grace, in which the Father elects, the Son redeems, and the Holy Spirit regenerates those who have been foreordained to eternal life and those alone.

Tom who was a Particular Baptist Pastor, a law enforcement officer and probably more things than I could imagine would always emphasize one key word, ‘GRACE’, it’s all of grace! G-D bless your soul my brother…and thanks for making it stick!

 

[JonC]

Good qustions.

They’re old, jaded, worn out, and probably were taught to sit still and quiet.

Yes, the pastor is a good friend. He tries to stir them up, encourage them.

I try through some new music and select readings from Scripture and exhortations.

Over the decades I have come to believe that the health of a local church can be measured in its youth.

I say this for a few reasons.

First, thinking back to my upbringing anyway, it seems that faith is less encumbered by the distractions of life when we are young.

Secondly, raising children in the way they should walk, in the faith, is godly. This is a criteria of a Christian life (Prov. 22; Ephesians 6; Tim 3; Titus 1). It is a qualification for elders that their children be believers.

Third, the younger generation is the people who will take our place. They are our legacy.

So one reason, IMHO, that churches die or are dying is an insistence on clinging to tradition (their way) while becoming obsolete to the youth.

How does a church get out of that mess? I do not know.

When I moved here I attended churches that I liked, but when I looked around everybody was my age or older. I suspected the church would not last, and it didn't (it is now a healthier church as another congregation took it over in a merge). Maybe that is a solution - partner with congregations with more life in them.

 

[Ascetic X]

Over the decades I have come to believe that the health of a local church can be measured in its youth.

I say this for a few reasons.

First, thinking back to my upbringing anyway, it seems that faith is less encumbered by the distractions of life when we are young.

Secondly, raising children in the way they should walk, in the faith, is godly. This is a criteria of a Christian life (Prov. 22; Ephesians 6; Tim 3; Titus 1). It is a qualification for elders that their children be believers.

Third, the younger generation is the people who will take our place. They are our legacy.

So one reason, IMHO, that churches die or are dying is an insistence on clinging to tradition (their way) while becoming obsolete to the youth.

How does a church get out of that mess? I do not know.

When I moved here I attended churches that I liked, but when I looked around everybody was my age or older. I suspected the church would not last, and it didn't (it is now a healthier church as another congregation took it over in a merge). Maybe that is a solution - partner with congregations with more life in them.

The health of a church seems to measured by a good mix of ages. Youth has the freshness of faith plus invincible exuberance, middle age people have deeper scriptural application and the stability of maturity, elders have settled serenity and hard won wisdom.

I too feel sorry for churches that are almost entirely gray hairs. But I also worry about ministries that are mostly unseasoned young people who are prone to value enthusiastic contemporary worship music and popular spiritual trends, rather than time tested devout books and historical theological studies.

Accommodating youth culture has a limited efficacy, but it needs to be reinforced with solid instructions in how to study the Bible, share the faith, practice Christian virtues, etc. Older believers can provide good examples and be a blessing in that way.

 

[JonC]

The health of a church seems to measured by a good mix of ages. Youth has the freshness of faith plus invincible exuberance, middle age people have deeper scriptural application and the stability of maturity, elders have settled serenity and hard won wisdom.

I too feel sorry for churches that are almost entirely gray hairs. But I also worry about ministries that are mostly unseasoned young people who are prone to value enthusiastic contemporary worship music and popular spiritual trends, rather than time tested devout books and historical theological studies.

Accommodating youth culture has a limited efficacy, but it needs to be reinforced with solid instructions in how to study the Bible, share the faith, practice Christian virtues, etc. Older believers can provide good examples and be a blessing in that way.

All in all, I agree. The absence of age can be troubling (or at least the absence of those mature in the faith...those who have had decades walking in the faith).

I do not mean accommodating the youth. We should not accommodate the young or old.

I am talking about relevance. Too many today prescribe adopting cultural preferences that are not relevant to younger generations. Often these traditions have lost their original meaning when considered by a younger group.

When I wore a suit to church I considered it as "offering my best", as a sign of respect. Today many view it as being aloof , insincere, a false piety.

And this is not new. Our traditional hymns were once around upon as "new", secular, and too "common" for appropriate worship.


What I mean is the absence of youth is a failure of the church - especially today when there is such a growth of Christianity in that demographic.

Look at the Christian youth. Look at how God has been using them, how absolutely devoted they are to share the gospel, to reach a world that is perishing.

I cannot say why a church failed to grow up a following generation. I do not know why. One reason is clinging to tradition, forfeitting their First Love in pursuit of preferences. But there could be other reasons (I can only identify what I have witnessed and do not pretend that to be the only cause).


I do believe the absence of youth is a good indicator a church may be dead or dying. The absence of Christians mature in the faith is also alarming. So is a church comprised of only one culture or ethnicity in a diverse community. There are many indicators we can consider.

 

[easternstar]

See Easternstar, I’m a great believer that you should find a church and that church has to be a Grace driven doctrines of grace church and taught for your souls salvation. Now at one time my parents were committed to raising me up in a church that was totally works based salvation, meaning I had to touch all the sacramental bases in order to get to heaven & that’s what they baptized me into. Today I most furvently believe that works based churches are erroneous. I don’t see it in scriptures however I’m not going to imply that people can’t be saved in these types of churches. Because it is the function of the Holy Spirit to convict you I would not claim one church over another… even people who don’t go to church can be saved by the HS.

As for me though, I believe that churches like The Primitive Baptists are endeavoring to attain, at all times,to the doctrine and practices of the true church as outlined in the New Testament. Also the Primitive Baptist are very close in alignment to the Particular Baptist, who hold to the same truth as we PB churches do.

Now presently, I am constricted to going to the church that I really want to go to by geography as there are no Primitive Baptist in my part of the country. However, I can and do attend weekly meetings online so that’s the best I can do at this point. G-D bless you in your search.

Thanks for your explanation. I wish you had a PB church you could physically attend, but I'm glad you can attend weekly meetings online.
I've been in situations where there was no local church that I could attend.

 

[Ascetic X]

When I wore a suit to church I considered it as "offering my best", as a sign of respect. Today many view it as being aloof , insincere, a false piety.

I always wear a sport coat and tie to church. It is a habit ingrained in me over the years.

In some churches, only one or two other men do the same. In other churches, many men and ladies are dressed up.

It is just my way of showing respect and honor to the house of God. When I see an older guy wearing short pants and a tee shirt in church, I am tempted to feel like I’m dressed more appropriately, but that is prideful egotism, so I stifle that thought. But I’m still perplexed about why people dress so extremely casually in church.

Pastors who deliver sermons while dressed casually do not bother me, but when they wear a suit, it seems a bit more professional.

People used to dress up to shop downtown, go on a date, attend a party, show up for a job interview, work in an office, preach from a pulpit, or travel by airplane. I don’t understand how or why that all changed. Perhaps people valued comfort or just got lazy. Standards in many realms of life have been lowered.

I agree with the proverb Dress Sharp, Think Sharp…Dress Sloppy, Think Sloppy.

I don’t mind what others wear at church, except when women wear super tight slacks, extremely short skirts, or low cut blouses that show a lot of cleavage.

 

[easternstar]

Since I do not hold to any of the 5 points of Calvinism, I could not attend any Particular Baptist church or similar church.

 

[Salty]

Since I do not hold to any of the 5 points of Calvinism, I could not attend any Particular Baptist church or similar church.

We used to have someone on this board who subscribed to all six points of Calvinism - bet you would love his church!

 

[JonC]

I always wear a sport coat and tie to church. It is a habit ingrained in me over the years.

In some churches, only one or two other men do the same.

It is just my way of showing respect and honor to the house of God. When I see an older guy wearing short pants and a tee shirt in church, I am tempted to feel like I’m dressed more appropriately, but that is prideful egotism, so I stifle that thought. But I’m still perplexed about why people dress so extremely casually in church.



People used to dress up to shop downtown, go on a date, attend a party, show up for a job interview, work in an office, preach from a pulpit, or travel by airplane. I don’t understand how or why that all changed. Perhaps people valued comfort or just got lazy. Standards in many realms of life have been lowered.

I agree with the proverb Dress Sharp, Think Sharp…Dress Sloppy, Think Sloppy.

I don’t mind what others wear at church, except when women wear super tight slacks, extremely short skirts, or low cut blouses that show a lot of cleavage.

I was just using that as an example of how our culture has changed in terms of perception.

I am 57 years old. When I see a man wearing a suit I think of lawyers (if in church I think "pretentious", not dressing modestly). But I am accustomed to sports jackets and view that as appropriate. I also view blue jeans and a nice t-shirt as appropriate.

But my point is many do not share that cultural perception. Older people may view blue jeans as inappropriate. Younger people may view a coat and tie inappropriate (lacking modesty).

I never trust anybody wearing a suit. Why? I am not really sure. I guess I connect suits with trial lawyers trying to score a win (maybe I have watched too much Law and Order).

I agree that we should not dress provocatively. But I also think our dress should be modest.


Anyway, my point was not about how we dress. My point was that we cannot cling to our preferences at the expense of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[JonC]

Since I do not hold to any of the 5 points of Calvinism, I could not attend any Particular Baptist church or similar church.

I could....depending on whether they are preaching the gospel or their theology. But I would never consider being a member of that church.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Over the decades I have come to believe that the health of a local church can be measured in its youth.

I say this for a few reasons.

First, thinking back to my upbringing anyway, it seems that faith is less encumbered by the distractions of life when we are young.

Secondly, raising children in the way they should walk, in the faith, is godly. This is a criteria of a Christian life (Prov. 22; Ephesians 6; Tim 3; Titus 1). It is a qualification for elders that their children be believers.

Third, the younger generation is the people who will take our place. They are our legacy.

So one reason, IMHO, that churches die or are dying is an insistence on clinging to tradition (their way) while becoming obsolete to the youth.

How does a church get out of that mess? I do not know.

When I moved here I attended churches that I liked, but when I looked around everybody was my age or older. I suspected the church would not last, and it didn't (it is now a healthier church as another congregation took it over in a merge). Maybe that is a solution - partner with congregations with more life in them.

Yea but the leaders of the church won’t do that either… they are the older generation that are stuck in their ways so it generally A coupe de Guerra