Not only is Jesus God but God is Jesus

[Yeshua1]

Yes. That is not in dispute. All I am saying is that it is unbiblical to say, "God is Jesus." The Oneness holiness groups claim that God is Jesus; they deny the Trinity, and that is heresy in the formal theological use of the word.

True, as Jesus is God, but at the very same time the other 2 members of the trinity are also!

 

[Yeshua1]

I come back to John 1:1, "Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος."

There are some very important truths in this verse on the Godhead, and the Two Persons mentioned here.

In the first place we have the words, "Ἐν ἀρχῇ", "in the beginning". This is not referring to the same "beginning" as found in Genesis 1:1, when Elohim began the creation of the universe. The words in John 1:1, go back to eternity past, as creation is mentioned later in verse 3. This is what Jesus meant in John 17:5, "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was", where He speaks of His eternal Glory with He shared with the Father, "from eternity past". This clause thus affirms the eternity of The Word, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Secondly, we then read that this "Word", Who is from eternity, and therefore uncreated, is "with God". This tells us two things. That the Logos is not the "God" mentioned in this clause, and, that He is a distinct Person from this "God". This is clear from the use of the definite Greek article (ὁ and τὸν), which in this sentence, shows that there cannot be one Person that is meant, Also, we have the Greek preposition, "πρὸς", (with), which has the meanings, "along with", "in the presence of", "besides", etc. Again, showing distinction is meant.

Thirdly, in the final sentence, John writes, "καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.". Those like the Jehovah's Witnesses, for their theological bias against Jesus as Yahweh, have rendered this, "and the Logos was a god". This is not what the Greek says here. They argue, with not grammatical justification, that, had John wished to write, "and the Logos was God", that he would have written in the Greek, "καὶ ὁ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.", where the Greek article "ὁ" is also used with "God". As I said, the JW's do so, not because the Greek grammar says so, but they cannot admit that the Bible does teach that Jesus is Almighty God. As things stand in this verse in the Greek, John could not have written, "καὶ ὁ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.", for two reasons. 1. had John written, "and the Word was the God", this would have made the nouns here convertible, that is, that he would have made "the Word" to be "the God", both would be identical Persons, and all of God would be only in the Word! 2. by writing "καὶ ὁ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.", John would have also made nonsense of his previous words, "καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν", because here he shows that "the Word" and "the God", were not one and the same person, as one is said to be WITH the other!

Here we have very clear teaching of the Godhead, where Two distinct (not separate) Persons are shown, Who are EQUALLY Almighty God!

I love how for decades the JW would misquote and use for their propaganda what Dr Manley stated in regards to Jesus, as they kept using him prove their heresy on Jesus not beijng God, and he ended up sending to them a letter stating that Jesus twas fully God and stop quoting him as their Greekl expert!

 

[Acts2.21]

I love how for decades the JW would misquote and use for their propaganda what Dr Manley stated in regards to Jesus, as they kept using him prove their heresy on Jesus not beijng God, and he ended up sending to them a letter stating that Jesus twas fully God and stop quoting him as their Greekl expert!

Yes, and the sad thing is that they keep on believing and teaching the same lies! May the Lord have mercy on them.

 

[GoodTidings]

True, as Jesus is God, but at the very same time the other 2 members of the trinity are also!

Again, that is not in dispute. I have already affirmed that all three members of the Trinity are God, as well.

 

[Van]

In the first place, there was the Angel of the Lord (Yahweh) Who was present in the burning bush, Who spoke to Moses from it. The actual "bush" was not in any way "the Lord". Likewise, the dove at Jesus' Baptism only "symbolized" the Holy Spirit, Who is invisible, and was therefore the "visibility" of the Holy Spirit. The "dove" itself was not the Holy Spirit.

In the Old Testament, prior to His Incarnation, the Lord Jesus Christ appeared in some "bodily form", as the Angel of the Lord. He spoke with people, ate with them, wrestled with one, etc, etc.

Jesus Christ at His death on the cross, "commended" His human spirit, which was His human "life" (breath) to the Father. This has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit, Who Himself is also eternally Almighty God, and a separate Person to the Father and Jesus Christ.

You are right that each member of the Holy Trinity is "Personal", but not in the same sense as we use the word, as the Father and Holy Spirit do not have material "bodies", as does Jesus, even now in heaven.

There is only one Holy Spirit, Who, as John tells us in his Gospel, "proceeds παρά the Father" (15:26), where the Greek preposition shows a distinction in Persons.

Thanks for actually presenting your view. I disagree with much of it.

First, many scholars believe that the Second Person of the Trinity spoke through the burning bush. I believe it was Logos as well.

Second, the manifestation of the Holy Spirit as separate from Christ was the point. Here is what I said: "Now each of these "entities" can manifest themselves to humans such as the burning bush, or "like a dove."

Third, we agree, sometimes the "Angel of the Lord" appears to be the Second Person of the Trinity." However, not in every cast. Other actual Angels can serve as messengers.

Fourth, the idea that Jesus had two spirits, one human and one God Almighty is bogus in my opinion. Again, if you can support that view from scripture I would be interested. When I looked, I could not find it.

Fifth, an entity such as the human spirits in heaven, have personhood but do not have their glorified body yet, that occurs at the second coming.

I agree that there is only one Third Person of the Trinity, but disagree that the other two Persons are without a spiritual dimension.

 

[Acts2.21]

True, as Jesus is God, but at the very same time the other 2 members of the trinity are also!

The phase "God is Jesus" is unbiblical, as it teaches that Jesus only is

Thanks for actually presenting your view. I disagree with much of it.

First, many scholars believe that the Second Person of the Trinity spoke through the burning bush. I believe it was Logos as well.

Second, the manifestation of the Holy Spirit as separate from Christ was the point. Here is what I said: "Now each of these "entities" can manifest themselves to humans such as the burning bush, or "like a dove."

Third, we agree, sometimes the "Angel of the Lord" appears to be the Second Person of the Trinity." However, not in every cast. Other actual Angels can serve as messengers.

Fourth, the idea that Jesus had two spirits, one human and one God Almighty is bogus in my opinion. Again, if you can support that view from scripture I would be interested. When I looked, I could not find it.

Fifth, an entity such as the human spirits in heaven, have personhood but do not have their glorified body yet, that occurs at the second coming.

I agree that there is only one Third Person of the Trinity, but disagree that the other two Persons are without a spiritual dimension.

I will pick up on one point that you make. Are you saying that at Jesus' death, that it was the Holy Spirit that He commended to the Father? Luke 23:46 says, "Then Jesus called out in a loud voice, “Father, into Your hands I commit My Spirit.” And when He had said this, He breathed His last.". Which tells us that this mention of "spirit", was Jesus' human "life" (breathed His last). Surely for Jesus to have a complete "human nature" (sin exempted), He must have had a human will, soul and spirit, otherwise His "human nature" would be no more than a phantom.

 

[Yeshua1]

The phase "God is Jesus" is unbiblical, as it teaches that Jesus only is


I will pick up on one point that you make. Are you saying that at Jesus' death, that it was the Holy Spirit that He commended to the Father? Luke 23:46 says, "Then Jesus called out in a loud voice, “Father, into Your hands I commit My Spirit.” And when He had said this, He breathed His last.". Which tells us that this mention of "spirit", was Jesus' human "life" (breathed His last). Surely for Jesus to have a complete "human nature" (sin exempted), He must have had a human will, soul and spirit, otherwise His "human nature" would be no more than a phantom.

Jesus was fully God and fully Man...

 

[Van]

The phase "God is Jesus" is unbiblical, as it teaches that Jesus only is

I will pick up on one point that you make. Are you saying that at Jesus' death, that it was the Holy Spirit that He commended to the Father? Luke 23:46 says, "Then Jesus called out in a loud voice, “Father, into Your hands I commit My Spirit.” And when He had said this, He breathed His last.". Which tells us that this mention of "spirit", was Jesus' human "life" (breathed His last). Surely for Jesus to have a complete "human nature" (sin exempted), He must have had a human will, soul and spirit, otherwise His "human nature" would be no more than a phantom.

Hi Acts 2:21, In my opinion, you are making an argument from silence. And that is fine. Again I could find no evidence for your view.

But thanks for actually answering one of my questions, if God is Jesus means Jesus only is God then the description is bogus. However, others could interpret the phrase to mean God is Jesus and God is the Father and God is the Holy Spirit, or in a non-exclusive way.

 

[Acts2.21]

Jesus was fully God and fully Man...

did I say that He is not?

 

[Van]

Sorry for the double post, Acts 2.21, I see I missed one of your questions. I am saying I believe the Spirit Jesus commended, was the Spirit of Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity, and not a human spirit, or the Third Person of the Trinity.

 

[Acts2.21]

Sorry for the double post, Acts 2.21, I see I missed one of your questions. I am saying I believe the Spirit Jesus commended, was the Spirit of Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity, and not a human spirit, or the Third Person of the Trinity.

Hi, do you believe that post-Incarnation, the Lord Jesus Christ is 100% fully God, and 100% fully Man, except sin? Do you accept that Jesus did really take on the "form of man" (Philippians 2:7), which the NIV rightly translates the Greek as , "the very nature", which, as the previous verse, "the very nature of God", means, that He is fully God-Man? (see also Hebrews 2:14). In 1 Thessalonians 5:23, Paul says that the complete human nature consists of, "spirit, soul, and body". This must mean, that, if Jesus Christ, post-Incarnation, was indeed, "God manifested in the flesh" (1 Timothy 3:16), then He, like us humans, must also have "spirit, soul, and body", in reality, but not a sinful human nature (Luke 1:35, Romans 8:3).

Do you accept this this is what the Bible teaches about the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ?

 

[loDebar]

Hi Acts 2:21, In my opinion, you are making an argument from silence. And that is fine. Again I could find no evidence for your view.

But thanks for actually answering one of my questions, if God is Jesus means Jesus only is God then the description is bogus. However, others could interpret the phrase to mean God is Jesus and God is the Father and God is the Holy Spirit, or in a non-exclusive way.

the OP verse quotes God, being pierced. This could not the Godhead, but Jesus as God

 

[Van]

Hi, do you believe that post-Incarnation, the Lord Jesus Christ is 100% fully God, and 100% fully Man, except sin? Do you accept that Jesus did really take on the "form of man" (Philippians 2:7), which the NIV rightly translates the Greek as , "the very nature", which, as the previous verse, "the very nature of God", means, that He is fully God-Man? (see also Hebrews 2:14). In 1 Thessalonians 5:23, Paul says that the complete human nature consists of, "spirit, soul, and body". This must mean, that, if Jesus Christ, post-Incarnation, was indeed, "God manifested in the flesh" (1 Timothy 3:16), then He, like us humans, must also have "spirit, soul, and body", in reality, but not a sinful human nature (Luke 1:35, Romans 8:3).

Do you accept this this is what the Bible teaches about the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ?

I was pretty clear sin, I believe the Second Person of the Trinity became flesh. His Spirit was the "soul/Spirit" of Jesus, God incarnate.

 

[loDebar]

I was pretty clear sin, I believe the Second Person of the Trinity became flesh. His Spirit was the "soul/Spirit" of Jesus, God incarnate.

right, but He is not "Second" in deity or power

 

[Van]

right, but He is not "Second" in deity or power

I agree