Not open theism.

[37818]

The eternal Son of God has as the Creator deliberatly limited some of His omnisciece.

John 1:18, ". . . No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. . . ."

Genesis 22:12, ". . . for now I know that thou fearest God, . . ."

Acts of the Apostles 1:7, ". . . And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. . . ."

Mark 13:32, ". . . But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. . . ."

 

[Van]

The framework for the premise, God the Son limited, while incarnate, some of His omniscience, assumes this definition of Omniscience, "God knows everything imaginable." No other view is allowed to be presented.

 

[DaveXR650]

I think open theism is the idea that if someone has a true autonomous free will then not even God can truly know what they might do because their decision truly does not yet exist so it can't be known. God is very wise, and powerful, and his overall plans will always come about, but even God can't know a future decision of an individual because the decision simply does not yet exist. In other words, God is the ultimate master chess player and will always win, but if your next move is really up to you and you alone, no one can know ahead of time what that move will be. Not even God.

It sounds silly, but it is the logical conclusion if you believe in a true, autonomous free will.

 

[DaveXR650]

But if you've ever played chess you know that if you could know all possible moves and all possible moves that result from those moves then you would be unbeatable and it would be about as effective as knowing the future move, just not quite the same thing. And it preserves the idea of true autonomy and human free will.

 

[37818]

The framework for the premise, God the Son limited, while incarnate, some of His omniscience, assumes this definition of Omniscience, "God knows everything imaginable." No other view is allowed to be presented.

You really do not understand the argument. Genesis 22:12, ". . . now I know . . . ." God the Father always knew.

 

[JonC]

I think open theism is the idea that if someone has a true autonomous free will then not even God can truly know what they might do because their decision truly does not yet exist so it can't be known. God is very wise, and powerful, and his overall plans will always come about, but even God can't know a future decision of an individual because the decision simply does not yet exist. In other words, God is the ultimate master chess player and will always win, but if your next move is really up to you and you alone, no one can know ahead of time what that move will be. Not even God.

It sounds silly, but it is the logical conclusion if you believe in a true, autonomous free will.

I agree with your comments of Open Theism. People often rightly dismiss it but for the wrong reasons. They don't deny divine omniscience but change what it is that can actually be known.

I disagree with your last statement. Another view was expressed by Jonathan Edwards. Also some hold that human autonomous free will exists within God's will (that the mind of God is eternally greater than the mind of men, so that human free will has no bearing on the mind of God).


I was a Christian philosophy guy before seminary.

 

[DaveXR650]

Yes. I've listened to some of James White debating the Open Theists and frankly, without some level of Calvinistic determinism, their position is formidable. I don't personally know of a free willer who takes them on but that would be interesting to see.

 

[Van]

You really do not understand the argument. Genesis 22:12, ". . . now I know . . . ." God the Father always knew.

You really do not understand scripture.

Anyone can make "against the person arguments" but they demonstrate ignorance, not intelligence.

Now I know indicates a lack of knowledge beforehand. It does not say "now your behavior confirmed My prior knowledge."

And here is a question you will not answer, when Yahweh's words are presented in the Old Testament, are they the words of God the Father, God the Son, or the words of both?

 

[37818]

You really do not understand scripture.

Anyone can make "against the person arguments" but they demonstrate ignorance, not intelligence.

And here is a question you will not answer, when Yahweh's words are presented in the Old Testament, are they the words of God the Father, God the Son, or the words of both?

What does John 1:18 explain to you?

 

[Van]

What does John 1:18 explain to you?

Non-responsive, I asked a question. Why not answer it, or say you have no idea?

 

[37818]

And here is a question you will not answer, when Yahweh's words are presented in the Old Testament, are they the words of God the Father, God the Son, or the words of both?

All the words of God the Father are His words spoken by means of tbe Son. John 1:3. ". . . All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. . . ." Meaning the Son, aka the Word.

John 5:19, ". . . Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. . . ."

Luke 3:21-22, ". . . it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. . . ."

 

[Van]

All the words of God the Father are His words spoken by means of tbe Son. John 1:3. ". . . All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. . . ." Meaning the Son, aka the Word.

John 5:19, ". . . Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. . . ."

Luke 3:21-22, ". . . it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. . . ."

Based on this non-stated position post, I must infer God the Father "Learned" rather than confirmed the faithfulness of Abraham. Thus Omniscience, as defined by scripture is not knowing everything imaginable, but rather knowing everything God has chosen to know.

 

[37818]

Based on this non-stated position post, I must infer God the Father "Learned" rather than confirmed the faithfulness of Abraham. Thus Omniscience, as defined by scripture is not knowing everything imaginable, but rather knowing everything God has chosen to know.

NO. God the Father is fully omniscient. The Son as God's temporal agent is who learned. Or why have the Son of God? John 1:2. John 1:3, John 1:18. Genesis 22:12, ". . . now I know . . . ."

 

[Van]

NO. God the Father is fully omniscient. The Son as God's temporal agent is who learned. Or why have the Son of God? John 1:2. John 1:3, John 1:18. Genesis 22:12, ". . . now I know . . . ."

Why did you state your actual view, as errant as it may be, in post # 11?

Which Omniscient are you claiming? Did you say? Nope. Why not address the issue? Why all these nonsense posts deflecting. I grow tired.

1) God is fully Omniscient Yahweh knows what He has chosen to know.

2) Your view denies "now I know!" (Genesis 22:12)

3) God the Son is a person of the Trinity. Full Stop

4) John 1:2 says God the Son was with our Triune God Yahweh. Non-germane to Omniscience

5) Ditto for John 1:3.

6) Ditto for John 1:18

7) Genesis 22:12 say God learned that Abraham's faith was total, thus teaching Omniscience means God knows whatever He has chosen to know.

 

[37818]

Why did you state your actual view, as errant as it may be, in post # 11?

Which Omniscient are you claiming? Did you say? Nope. Why not address the issue? Why all these nonsense posts deflecting. I grow tired.

1) God is fully Omniscient Yahweh knows what He has chosen to know.

2) Your view denies "now I know!" (Genesis 22:12)

3) God the Son is a person of the Trinity. Full Stop

4) John 1:2 says God the Son was with our Triune God Yahweh. Non-germane to Omniscience

5) Ditto for John 1:3.

6) Ditto for John 1:18

7) Genesis 22:12 say God learned that Abraham's faith was total, thus teaching Omniscience means God knows whatever He has chosen to know.

We do not agree. There is no explaining to you anything. Fine. It seems to me you cannot understand my view either.

 

[Van]

We do not agree. There is no explaining to you anything. Fine. It seems to me you cannot understand my view either.

Kinda hard to understand positions unstated as in post #11.

 

[JesusFan]

The eternal Son of God has as the Creator deliberatly limited some of His omnisciece.

John 1:18, ". . . No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. . . ."

Genesis 22:12, ". . . for now I know that thou fearest God, . . ."

Acts of the Apostles 1:7, ". . . And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. . . ."

Mark 13:32, ". . . But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. . . ."

Actually, Jesus remained fully God, just chose to not know while on earth, but now fully knows all things period!

 

[37818]

Actually, Jesus remained fully God, just chose to not know while on earth, but now fully knows all things period!

Genesis 22:12, per John 1:18. Was before His incarnation.

 

[JesusFan]

Genesis 22:12, per John 1:18. Was before His incarnation.

Yahweh, Father Jesus and the Holy Spirit were and are all knowing period

 

[37818]

Yahweh, Father Jesus and the Holy Spirit were and are all knowing period

Throws out Mark 13:32 with Acts of the Apostles 1:7 explanation.

Then why did Yahweh in Genesis 22:12, say ". . . now I know . . . , " having always known? Where is any reason here?

Do you even know the difference between being finite and temporal or infinite and eternal? It seems you do not.

The explanation has to do with the One Yahweh actually being a Trinity of distinct Persons.