Not to bring up the Catholic thing again, but...

[lori4dogs]

'A gospel of works is bad news; it sends people to hell,'

Catholic Church agrees with that but you just keep denying it.

 

[DHK]

'A gospel of works is bad news; it sends people to hell,'

Catholic Church agrees with that but you just keep denying it.

Look in the Catechism.
It defines the new birth as being baptized. Baptism is a work. One does not get saved or born again by being baptized. That is a gospel of works.
It demands that one must be confirmed after that, and that is also related to one's salvation. That also is works.
It claims that salvation is a process, and not an event. The link provided was evidence enough. The conclusion stated that there can be no reconciliation between Catholics and Protestants in the area of justification.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Either the Bible is right--we are justified by faith, and the RCC wrong.
Or the RCC is right (we are justified by a process of works), and the Bible is wrong. Which is it?

 

[lori4dogs]

You also pray to the dead.
You practice necromancy.
You make a god out of Mary.
You practice idolatry.
The whole of Maryolatry is sin and an abomination before God, who alone demands worship and condemns the worship of another.

We are forbidden to practice ,necromancy(is a form of magic in which the practitioner seeks to summon "operative spirits" or "spirits of divination", for multiple reasons, from spiritual protection to wisdom.

However, since the Renaissance, necromancy (or nigromancy) has come to be associated more broadly with black magic and demon-summoning in general, sometimes losing its earlier, more specialized meaning. By popular etymology, nekromantia became nigromancy "black arts", and Johannes Hartlieb (1456) lists demonology in general under the heading.

Necromancy is used colloquially in fantasy entertainment to mean raising the dead. Creatures raised in this way are typically unnatural, being in a state of decay .
We do NOT make a god out of Mary, we do not practice idolotry. Catholics are forbidden to worship and adore anything but God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) PERIOD!

Ifthe there are Catholics and protestants who have practiced what the Catholic Church forbids it is on their heads. I know of a Baptist who also practices Wicca. Guess she doesn't pay that much attention in Sunday School either.

 

[annsni]

We are forbidden to practice ,necromancy(is a form of magic in which the practitioner seeks to summon "operative spirits" or "spirits of divination", for multiple reasons, from spiritual protection to wisdom.

And how is this different from praying to Mary and asking for spiritual protection or wisdom?????????????????

 

[annsni]

I know of a Baptist who also practices Wicca. Guess she doesn't pay that much attention in Sunday School either.

Then she's not Baptist.

 

[Peggy]

So how does each side define "Gospel"?

That's what I want to know!

 

[Amy.G]

Then she's not Baptist.

She's also not a Christian.

 

[lori4dogs]

And how is this different from praying to Mary and asking for spiritual protection or wisdom?????????????????

I ask the Blessed Mother of God to intercede for me. Not for special favors.

 

[lori4dogs]

Then she's not Baptist.

Yup, on the roles of the Church, there every Sunday and Weds. evening, receives Holy Communion every time is is served. Assistant Sunday School teacher! Sings in the choir and has applied for the position of Christian education director.

 

[DHK]

Yup, on the roles of the Church, there every Sunday and Weds. evening, receives Holy Communion every time is is served. Assistant Sunday School teacher! Sings in the choir and has applied for the position of Christian education director.

That is not a Baptist then is it?

 

[DHK]

I ask the Blessed Mother of God to intercede for me. Not for special favors.

You don't ask; you pray; you worship; you adore; you praise--you make her god. That is blasphemy!!

 

[annsni]

Yup, on the roles of the Church, there every Sunday and Weds. evening, receives Holy Communion every time is is served. Assistant Sunday School teacher! Sings in the choir and has applied for the position of Christian education director.

Then it's not a true Baptist church.

Additionally, if you have evidence of something like this, I'm sure the church would appreciate knowing about it. I'm going to be speaking to one of our pastors about a young woman who's working in the children's ministry who is living a different life outside of church. He's not aware of it and he needs to know so he can act on it.

So contact the church if you know for sure she is wiccan.

 

[lori4dogs]

Borrowed from 'Scriptural Answers to Protestant Objections'

God Desires and Responds to Our Subordinate Mediation / Intercessory Prayer

1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul's teaching about Jesus as the "one mediator," Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ's role as mediator.

1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ's work because we are God's "fellow workers" and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe "fellow workers" is "sunergoi," which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 - this is another example of how the Lord "worked with them" ("sunergountos"). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.

Rom. 8:28 - God "works for good with" (the Greek is "sunergei eis agathon") those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

2 Cor. 6:1 - "working together" (the Greek is "sunergountes") with him, don't accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.

Heb. 12:1 - the “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) that we are surrounded by is a great amphitheatre of witnesses to the earthly race, and they actively participate and cheer us (the runners) on, in our race to salvation. AMEN!

1 Peter 2:5 - we are a holy priesthood, instructed to offer spiritual sacrifices to God. We are therefore subordinate priests to the Head Priest, but we are still priests who participate in Christ's work of redemption.

Rev. 1:6, 5:10 - Jesus made us a kingdom of priests for God. Priests intercede through Christ on behalf of God's people.

James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.WOW, EVER THOIUGHT OF THAT?

1 Tim 2:5-6 - therefore, it is because Jesus Christ is the one mediator before God that we can be subordinate mediators. Jesus is the reason. The Catholic position thus gives Jesus the only glory. Not Mary or the other saints!. He does it all but loves us so much He desires our participation

 

[annsni]

I ask the Blessed Mother of God to intercede for me. Not for special favors.

"Holy Mary, help those in need, give strength to the weak, comfort the sorrowful, pray for God's people, assist the clergy, intercede for religious. Mary, all who seek your help experience your unfailing protection. Amen"

"My Queen, my Mother I offer myself entirely to thee. And to show my devotion to thee, I offer thee this day my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve. Wherefore good Mother, as I am thine own, keep me, guard me as your property and possession. Amen."

"O Virgin Immaculate, Mother of God and my Mother, from thy sublime height turn upon me thine eyes of pity. Filled with confidence in thy goodness and knowing full well thy power, I beseech thee to extend to me thine assistance in the journey of life, which is so full of danger for my soul. And in order that I may never be the slave of the devil through sin, but may ever live with my heart humble and pure, I entrust myself wholly to thee. I consecrate my heart to thee for ever, my only desire being to love thy divine Son Jesus. Mary, none of thy devout servants has ever perished; may I too be saved. Amen."

Prayer of Pope Pius XII

"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty, and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother, Mary, confident of finding in your most loving heart appeasement of our ardent desires, and a safe harbor from the tempests which beset us on every side.

Though degraded by our faults and overwhelmed by infinite misery, we admire and praise the peerless richness of sublime gifts with which God has filled you, above every other mere creature, from the first moment of your conception until the day on which, after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe.

O crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds with the eternal truths! O fragrant Lily of all holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume! O Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin, which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell!

O well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cry which rises up from every heart. Bend tenderly over our aching wounds. Convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and oppressed, comfort the poor and humble, quench hatreds, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity in youth, protect the holy Church, make all men feel the attraction of Christian goodness. In your name, resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that they are brothers, and that the nations are members of one family, upon which may there shine forth the sun of a universal and sincere peace.

Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications, and above all obtain for us that, one day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which today is sung on earth around your altars: You are all-beautiful, O Mary! You are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people! Amen."

 

[annsni]

Borrowed from 'Scriptural Answers to Protestant Objections'

God Desires and Responds to Our Subordinate Mediation / Intercessory Prayer

1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul's teaching about Jesus as the "one mediator," Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ's role as mediator.

1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ's work because we are God's "fellow workers" and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe "fellow workers" is "sunergoi," which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 - this is another example of how the Lord "worked with them" ("sunergountos"). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.

Rom. 8:28 - God "works for good with" (the Greek is "sunergei eis agathon") those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

2 Cor. 6:1 - "working together" (the Greek is "sunergountes") with him, don't accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.

Heb. 12:1 - the “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) that we are surrounded by is a great amphitheatre of witnesses to the earthly race, and they actively participate and cheer us (the runners) on, in our race to salvation. AMEN!

1 Peter 2:5 - we are a holy priesthood, instructed to offer spiritual sacrifices to God. We are therefore subordinate priests to the Head Priest, but we are still priests who participate in Christ's work of redemption.

Rev. 1:6, 5:10 - Jesus made us a kingdom of priests for God. Priests intercede through Christ on behalf of God's people.

James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.WOW, EVER THOIUGHT OF THAT?

1 Tim 2:5-6 - therefore, it is because Jesus Christ is the one mediator before God that we can be subordinate mediators. Jesus is the reason. The Catholic position thus gives Jesus the only glory. Not Mary or the other saints!. He does it all but loves us so much He desires our participation

We ask our friend to pray for us - the friend who is standing next to us and hears us and responds to us. Then we take the GIANT leap that the dead are omnipotent and omniscient and that we can ask them to pray for us too? And the Scriptural support for praying to the dead is? Can you show me one place in all of the Bible where a man or woman prayed to a dead person?

 

[lori4dogs]

Then it's not a true Baptist church.

Additionally, if you have evidence of something like this, I'm sure the church would appreciate knowing about it. I'm going to be speaking to one of our pastors about a young woman who's working in the children's ministry who is living a different life outside of church. He's not aware of it and he needs to know so he can act on it.

So contact the church if you know for sure she is wiccan.

Actually, there a quite a few 'liberal' to say the least Baptist churches in this area. Many adopting 'inclusive' language in their prayers and reading of bible passages. I participate in a Freewill Baptist bible study and prayer group each week (bible believing) and we pray for the former evangelical churches in our area to repent. The Presbyterian Church is on the verge splitting. At least on American Baptist Church has disassociated itself from the convention. The Methodist church is less than a third the size it was five year ago. The ELCA church in town is trying to make it a denomination issue and not a local church issue. People are still leaving in droves to the LCMS Church in town. Many have given the 'wink' to the Episcopal Church's new position on ordaining and consecrating openly homosexual clergy. This issue is probably going to result in many more splits and some churches closing. If you wonder if your own denominations doctrines are being 'tinkered' with look no further that your seminaries and what they are teaching.

Personally, I don't think the Catholic Church is the big threat to evangelicalism. I believe we are proclaiming salvation through Christ Atonement on the Cross and believing that God resurrected Him from the Dead that we might repent and turn our lives and will over to Him (and Him alone). Evangelicalism is imploding before you very eyes with the average Joe in the pew thinking 'well it won't happen in our local church'.

Look at the empty pew in most former protestant churches in the U.S. Look how many have had to merger just to stay open. Liberal theology=empty and closing churches.

 

[DHK]

"My Queen, my Mother I offer myself entirely to thee. And to show my devotion to thee, I offer thee this day my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve. Wherefore good Mother, as I am thine own, keep me, guard me as your property and possession. Amen."

Lori, if I would ask you to pray for me, would you start your prayer off this way:
"My King, my DHK, I offer myself entirely to thee. And to show my devotion to thee, I offer....

Would you pray TO me like that, if I asked you to pray FOR me? Please answer honestly.

 

[lori4dogs]

We ask our friend to pray for us - the friend who is standing next to us and hears us and responds to us. Then we take the GIANT leap that the dead are omnipotent and omniscient and that we can ask them to pray for us too? And the Scriptural support for praying to the dead is? Can you show me one place in all of the Bible where a man or woman prayed to a dead person?

I know that most protestants do no except 2 Maccabbees as canonical: but this support from what we DO except as scriptural as well as N.T. references.
(2 Maccabbees): Omitting some passages in the Old Testament which are sometimes invoked, but which are too vague and uncertain in their reference to be urged in proof (v.g. Tobias, iv, 18; Ecclus., vii, 37; etc.), it is enough to notice here the classical passage in 2 Maccabees, 12:40-46.

When Judas and his men came to take away for burial the bodies of their brethren who had fallen in the battle against Gorgias, "they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain. Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden. And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten...And making a gathering, he [Judas] sent twelve [al. two] drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection (for if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead), and because he considered that they who had fallen asleep in godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins."

Passing over the well-known passage, I Cor., iii, 14 sq., on which an argument for purgatory may be based, attention may be called to another curious text in the same Epistle (xv, 29), where St. Paul argues thus in favor of the resurrection: "Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? Why are they then baptized form them?" Even assuming that the practice here referred to was superstitious, and that St. Paul merely uses it as the basis of an argumentum ad hominem, the passage at least furnishes historical evidence of the prevalence at the time of belief in the efficacy of works for the dead; and the Apostle's reserve in not reprobating this particular practice is more readily intelligible if we suppose him to have recognized the truth of the principle of which it was merely an abuse. But it is probable that the practice in question was something in itself legitimate, and to which the Apostle gives his tacit approbation. In his Second Epistle to Timothy (i, 16-18; iv, 19) St. Paul speaks of Onesiphorus in a way that seems obviously to imply that the latter was already dead: "The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus" -- as to a family in need of consolation. Then, after mention of loyal services rendered by him to the imprisoned Apostle at Rome, comes the prayer for Onesiphorus himself, "The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day" (the day of judgment); finally, in the salutation, "the household of Onesiphorus" is mentioned once more, without mention of the man himself. The question is, what had become of him? Was he dead, as one would naturally infer from what St. Paul writes? Or had he for any other cause become separated permanently from his family, so that prayer for them should take account of present needs while prayers for him looked forward to the Day of Judgment? Or could it be that he was still at Rome when the Apostle wrote, or gone elsewhere for a prolonged absence from home? The first is by far the easiest and most natural hypothesis; and if it be admitted, we have here an instance of prayer by the Apostle for the soul of a deceased benefactor.

 

[lori4dogs]

Lori, if I would ask you to pray for me, would you start your prayer off this way:
"My King, my DHK, I offer myself entirely to thee. And to show my devotion to thee, I offer....

Would you pray TO me like that, if I asked you to pray FOR me? Please answer honestly.

No, but I believe the Blessed Mother has a special relationship with her Divine son and can intercede to our Lord on my behalf. I am devoted to the Blessed Mother (so was Martin Luther) and believe she to be perfect example of how to live a life for her Son Jesus.

Mary by your life and example and want to live more as your precious Son taught us. Pray for me Holy Mother of God, that I might be worthy of the promises of Christ. Amen1

 

[annsni]

Actually, there a quite a few 'liberal' to say the least Baptist churches in this area. Many adopting 'inclusive' language in their prayers and reading of bible passages. I participate in a Freewill Baptist bible study and prayer group each week (bible believing) and we pray for the former evangelical churches in our area to repent. The Presbyterian Church is on the verge splitting. At least on American Baptist Church has disassociated itself from the convention. The Methodist church is less than a third the size it was five year ago. The ELCA church in town is trying to make it a denomination issue and not a local church issue. People are still leaving in droves to the LCMS Church in town. Many have given the 'wink' to the Episcopal Church's new position on ordaining and consecrating openly homosexual clergy. This issue is probably going to result in many more splits and some churches closing. If you wonder if your own denominations doctrines are being 'tinkered' with look no further that your seminaries and what they are teaching.

Personally, I don't think the Catholic Church is the big threat to evangelicalism. I believe we are proclaiming salvation through Christ Atonement on the Cross and believing that God resurrected Him from the Dead that we might repent and turn our lives and will over to Him (and Him alone). Evangelicalism is imploding before you very eyes with the average Joe in the pew thinking 'well it won't happen in our local church'.

Look at the empty pew in most former protestant churches in the U.S. Look how many have had to merger just to stay open. Liberal theology=empty and closing churches.

Lori - With this I am completely in agreement with you but the Catholic church is not immune. As I mentioned, I have a friend who is openly gay, admitted to the bishop yet will be in seminary in the very next class and he's an acting deacon right now. I don't think one of the Catholic churches in our area have an American priest. Additionally, I know many of the Catholics in our area who still identify themselves as Catholic and either don't attend church at all or just attend to get their ticket to heaven each week. They don't agree with much of what the Catholic church stands for or teaches yet they are not discipled to either learn and obey or leave. I know in our church, you won't last too long believing something vastly different than what is taught and you certainly would not become a member - or stay a member if you changed your beliefs.

So while I agree with you about so many of the churches, we can't paint with a completely wide brush across the board and try to compare apples to oranges.