Not under law but under grace.

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Perhaps this one, "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and you will not fulfil the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16 (KJV)" ... Then just do what is commanded and thou shallt live thereby - it will be the rule of your life - the Spirit finishing what God had begun in you!

I don't see any choice God gives us herein not to obey.

 

[DHK]

Grace is forgiving and brings life.
Law is condemning and brings death.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Law is condemning and brings death.

HP: I would agree to this in a sense. Is it not true that the law is also sure guide and protector in a sense? Does it not place just and righteous parameters in our life? Take for instance thou shalt not kill. Does that not direct even our thoughts not to harbor thoughts of hate? Are we not glad that God has made that abundantly clear to all humans via the law, so as not only to direct our actions but to hopefully place a safe hedge around us and our loved ones as others follow that commandment? Is not that moral law given by God to man the impetus our judicial system has to not only to set a mark for righteous living but to justly punish and protect society from those that fail to direct their intents in accordance to the precept? What do you think the world would look like today if God would remove that commandment form us, and no longer hold us accountable to that standard? There is not one of the Ten Commandments that I do not meditate on and have gratitude that a Wise and Benevolent God did not simply leave man to decide for his self what is right and wrong. I see the law as holy, just, pure and righteous altogether, a guiding light to life not death, not something evil or condemning or tending towards death.

Should we not all say that we love and honor God’s law and should we not do as the psalmist said, meditate on God’s law day and night? I certainly think so. I sure hope others are as well.

 

[DHK]

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

HP: Ro 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Both of these are in the same passage. The law is sin and death only as we are walking in disobedience to it. It becomes the beacon of righteousness to us as we walk in willing obedience to it in the spirit of love towards God and our fellow man.


Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

When we speak of disobedience, we are speaking about doing despite the known will of God. Who would say that keeping the Ten Commandments are not part and parcel to God’s will? Which one could we ignore or disobey and say we are in keeping with the law of love towards God and man? When one knows he is in a right relationship towards God, which known commandment of God can we be in open disobedience or open defiance to? Why do we post them in our courthouses and teach them to our children? Are we teaching them condemnation, sin and death or are we teaching them obedience towards God and love towards our fellowman? Possibly a little of both?

Do we not have to give careful heed to the sense in which the word ‘law’ is used not to give the wrong impression as to our obligation towards God’s law as obedient children? Certainly a study of Psalms and Proverbs would produce such sentiments. Ps 19:7 ¶ The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

 

[BobRyan]

Grace is forgiving and brings life.
Law is condemning and brings death.

There is no question that we do not "Go to Law to find forgiveness" or "salvation".

But in the New Covenant the "LAw of God is written on the heart" according to Heb 8 so that by faith we "establish the LAW of God" rather than "ABolishing it" Rom 3:31. That is why Christ could say "pre-cross" IF you LOVE Me KEEP My Commandments John 14:15.

Obedience to the WORD of Christ is the sign of true LOVE of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Christ never argues "If you Love Me IGNORE My Word".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The "Law of Sin and Death" in Romans 8 is a reference to the "Sin principle" given in Romans 7 "SIN IN me" as Paul calls it.

For in Romans 7 Paul has just stated "The LAW is Holy Just and good".

Paul also argues that the "LAW is spiritual and to be spiritually discerned".

But then at the end of Romans 7 Paul argues that there is WITHIN him another law - the law of sin and death -- the sinful nature that desires evil.

And so in Romans 8 Paul argues "IF by the Spirit you continually are puting to DEATH the deeds of the FLESH THEN are you the children of God".

In Romans 6 Paul had just finished making the argument that those who CLAIM to be slaves to sin - slaves to rebellion against the Law of God -- are in fact serving the master - sin and are not in service to Christ.

"For the wages of sin is DEATH but the Gift of God is eternal life"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The interesting part here is that Paul starts this off by saying "Do not be deceived" and then assures the church of Corinth that rebellion against the Law of God (sin) is not going to be "rewarded with heaven".

1Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers,will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.


The Post-cross teaching of the apostles CONTINUES to support that importance of God’s Word – God’s Commandments – and obedience rather than rebellion.


1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

I Jn 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: Why does this Psalm seem out of place on this list? It is indeed time for Thee Oh God to work.

Ps 119:97 ¶ MEM. O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.
98 ¶ Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me.
99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.
100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.
101 ¶ I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep thy word.
102 ¶ I have not departed from thy judgments: for thou hast taught me.
103 ¶ How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.
105 ¶ NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
106 ¶ I have sworn, and I will perform it, that I will keep thy righteous judgments.
107 ¶ I am afflicted very much: quicken me, O LORD, according unto thy word.
108 ¶ Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.
109 ¶ My soul is continually in my hand: yet do I not forget thy law.
110 The wicked have laid a snare for me: yet I erred not from thy precepts.
111 ¶ Thy testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for they are the rejoicing of my heart.
112 I have inclined mine heart to perform thy statutes alway, even unto the end.
113 ¶ SAMECH. I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love.
114 ¶ Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word.
115 ¶ Depart from me, ye evildoers: for I will keep the commandments of my God.
116 ¶ Uphold me according unto thy word, that I may live: and let me not be ashamed of my hope.
117 Hold thou me up, and I shall be safe: and I will have respect unto thy statutes continually.
118 ¶ Thou hast trodden down all them that err from thy statutes: for their deceit is falsehood.
119 Thou puttest away all the wicked of the earth like dross: therefore I love thy testimonies.
120 My flesh trembleth for fear of thee; and I am afraid of thy judgments.
121 ¶ AIN. I have done judgment and justice: leave me not to mine oppressors.
122 Be surety for thy servant for good: let not the proud oppress me.
123 ¶ Mine eyes fail for thy salvation, and for the word of thy righteousness.
124 ¶ Deal with thy servant according unto thy mercy, and teach me thy statutes.
125 I am thy servant; give me understanding, that I may know thy testimonies.
126 ¶ It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for they have made void thy law.

 

[trustitl]

Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Wherefore? To live by it? Nay, rather to die by it.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TrustintL: Wherefore? To live by it? Nay, rather to die by it.

HP: Yea, to live by it! Ps 119:34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart. Ps 119:44 So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever. Ps 119:48 My hands also will I lift up unto thy commandments, which I have loved; and I will meditate in thy statutes. Ps 119:51 ¶ The proud have had me greatly in derision: yet have I not declined from thy law. Ps 119:52 ¶ I remembered thy judgments of old, O LORD; and have comforted myself. Ps 119:53 ¶ Horror hath taken hold upon me because of the wicked that forsake thy law.
54 ¶ Thy statutes have been my songs in the house of my pilgrimage.
55 ¶ I have remembered thy name, O LORD, in the night, and have kept thy law.
56 This I had, because I kept thy precepts. Ps 119:67 ¶ Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word. Ps 119:69 ¶ The proud have forged a lie against me: but I will keep thy precepts with my whole heart. Ps 119:72 ¶ The law of thy mouth is better unto me than thousands of gold and silver. Ps 119:77 Let thy tender mercies come unto me, that I may live: for thy law is my delight.
78 ¶ Let the proud be ashamed; for they dealt perversely with me without a cause: but I will meditate in thy precepts. Ps 119:85 ¶ The proud have digged pits for me, which are not after thy law.
86 All thy commandments are faithful: they persecute me wrongfully; help thou me. Ps 119:87 They had almost consumed me upon earth; but I forsook not thy precepts.
88 ¶ Quicken me after thy lovingkindness; so shall I keep the testimony of thy mouth. Ps 119:92 ¶ Unless thy law had been my delights, I should then have perished in mine affliction.
93 ¶ I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me. Ps 119:98 ¶ Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me. Ps 119:101 ¶ I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep thy word.
102 ¶ I have not departed from thy judgments: for thou hast taught me.
103 ¶ How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.
105 ¶ NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
106 ¶ I have sworn, and I will perform it, that I will keep thy righteous judgments. Ps 119:127 ¶ Therefore I love thy commandments above gold; yea, above fine gold.
128 Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.
129 ¶ PE. Thy testimonies are wonderful: therefore doth my soul keep them. Ps 119:110 The wicked have laid a snare for me: yet I erred not from thy precepts. Ps 119:157 ¶ Many are my persecutors and mine enemies; yet do I not decline from thy testimonies. Ps 119:162 ¶ I rejoice at thy word, as one that findeth great spoil.
163 ¶ I hate and abhor lying: but thy law do I love. Ps 119:164 ¶ Seven times a day do I praise thee because of thy righteous judgments. Ps 119:166 ¶ LORD, I have hoped for thy salvation, and done thy commandments.
167 ¶ My soul hath kept thy testimonies; and I love them exceedingly.
Ps 119:174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.
175 ¶ Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me.


Sure sounds like something worthy of living according to me IF one seeks to have wisdom, understanding, consolation, protection, hope for the future. Read the entire Psalm! It will strengthen ones heart to live according to Gods commandments, law, precepts, testimonies and Word. IF we live right, dying right will take care of its self, but if we live wrong death remains a formidable enemy.

PS:Christ Jesus the Lord delivered Paul in this present world from that body of death spoken of in the 7th chapter of Romans. Read chapters 6 and 8!

 

[BobRyan]

In Romans 3 Paul asks the question "Do we then abolish the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God".

It is No wonder then that we find this in 1Cor 6 from Paul.

The interesting part here is that Paul starts this off by saying "Do not be deceived" and then assures the church of Corinth that rebellion against the Law of God (sin) is not going to be "rewarded with heaven".

1Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers,will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.


The Post-cross teaching of the apostles CONTINUES to support that importance of God’s Word – God’s Commandments – and obedience rather than rebellion.


1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

I Jn 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Dear Heavenly Pilgrim,
Your post 209 referring,
Don't you sing these beautiful songs with Jesus Christ foremost in your heart - so much so that the Law serves nothing but its Giver and His glory? I'm sure that was the Psalmest's thoughts while praising and enjoying the Laws of His God. I'm sure you do the same. No uncertainty about God's Law is it, but faith sure and fast in the God of the Law.
What is for you the 'rule' of distinction between right and wrong; good and bad; freedom and bondage? Is it not Christ supreme and only - and alone - before your eyes and within your heart? Do you really still think in 'Ten Commandment'-terms? Being a Christian, I believe you dont, and like Paul actually believes deep down your better knowledge, that the GLORY of the Law has become like NO glory at all, in the light of the Glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. We don't think or feel or live 'Jewish'; but 'Christian'.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

GE: Dear Heavenly Pilgrim,
Your post 209 referring,
Don't you sing these beautiful songs with Jesus Christ foremost in your heart - so much so that the Law serves nothing but its Giver and His glory? I'm sure that was the Psalmest's thoughts while praising and enjoying the Laws of His God. I'm sure you do the same. No uncertainty about God's Law is it, but faith sure and fast in the God of the Law.

HP: I believe I understand your line of reasoning and agree. Anytime one delights in the law, the Lawgiver is the direct object of adoration and praise, not the law itself.

GE: What is for you the 'rule' of distinction between right and wrong; good and bad; freedom and bondage? Is it not Christ supreme and only - and alone - before your eyes and within your heart?

HP:The rule of distinction is not God Himself although it in fact does emanate from Him. It is His law that is our rule of distinction between right and wrong, without which we could not even consider any moral notion at all.

GE: Do you really still think in 'Ten Commandment'-terms? Being a Christian, I believe you dont, and like Paul actually believes deep down your better knowledge, that the GLORY of the Law has become like NO glory at all, in the light of the Glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. We don't think or feel or live 'Jewish'; but 'Christian'.

HP: Certainly I do consider daily the ten commandments. They are a rule of action to guide my life and to be as a strong tower against my wills tendency to bend or alter what is right good and honest in lieu of the situations that arise. The law stands to defeat the tendency to allow situational ethics to control the intents formed by our will. I would think that every Christians would consider them daily as well and live in accordance to them.

Certainly we do not glory in the fact that we live according to them, but rather that our sins that are past are washed in the blood of the Lamb.

Certainly I feel Jewish, and so should every believer. Ro 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”

Every believer, as children of Abraham, should live, think, and believe in accordance to our spiritual Jewish heritage, should we not?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Every successful marriage has a list of do’s and don’ts that serve as a guide in their everyday actions and thoughts. There are some things I simply will not do or say in regards to the opposite sex, other than my spouse, that serve as a guide for my conversation and actions. I would like to ask DHK and others if in fact they have similar do’s and don’ts in their lives that guide their daily actions and thoughts, and if so is their relationship with their spouse one of being 'in bondage to' or 'under' the ‘laws’ they have established for their lives?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

HP:
The rule of distinction is not God Himself although it in fact does emanate from Him. It is His law that is our rule of distinction between right and wrong, without which we could not even consider any moral notion at all.

GE
To confirm what you say here, Somewhere it says God shall give the sons to distinguish between right and wrong -- God, in Person, in Jesus Christ, ultimately and finally. Christians don't have an authority in rivalry with God's own. Somewhere it also says, if you wnat to turn left or right, God will tell you which way to go.

This problem to me resembles that of God's Providence. If He has counted every hair of mine, he - as for the Psalmist - determines my going in and my going down, my sitting down and my standing up. Some people protest we are not robots; but I say to be God's robot, is freedom and independence.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

DHK
"Grace is forgiving and brings life.
Law is condemning and brings death."

GE
Yes, if you do not obey. You - and I - did not, obey; so, Grace is forgiving and brings life - thank God through Jesus Christ.
Law is that a man shall thereby live - 'thereby' as a rule to live by; not obtain life by virtue of one's obeying the Law. NOT EVEN IF THAT LAW FOR THIS MAN IS CHRIST JESUS! Righteousness is by faith alone and only. And Christ is all in all His -- all, Law, righteousness, faith, justification, sanctification --"ALL, in all" His.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

HP
"It is His law that is our rule of distinction between right and wrong, without which we could not even consider any moral notion at all."

GE
It is Jesus Christ that is our rule of distinction between right and wrong, without whom we could not even consider any moral notion at all -- not even by authority of the Holy and Good Law of God that He gave all men of all times through his FAITHFUL servant Moses. One does not light up a candle in full daylight; "It is good for a man to look in the full sun." (I think it was Solomon who said.)