Not under the Law

[revmwc]

So your saying that the phrase "not under the law refers to the OT sacrifices and not the moral commandments, correct?

Define moral commandments, the 10 Commandments (if that is what you mean by moral) never saved anyone, they showed the Jewish people just how wanting they were, just as they show us that too. God never intended for the 10 commandments to be a means of salvation, for none except Christ could keep them. To atone for sins the Law (O.T. Scripture) required sacrifices these were part of the Law that the Jewish people were required to follow and offer at certain times of the year for certain reasons. Those sacrifices were done away and the 10 Commandments never saved Israel and would never save us because we cannot keep them, to violate 1 is to violate them all scripture tells us.
But define what you mean by moral law.

 

[freeatlast]

Define moral commandments, the 10 Commandments (if that is what you mean by moral) never saved anyone, they showed the Jewish people just how wanting they were, just as they show us that too. God never intended for the 10 commandments to be a means of salvation, for none except Christ could keep them. To atone for sins the Law (O.T. Scripture) required sacrifices these were part of the Law that the Jewish people were required to follow and offer at certain times of the year for certain reasons. Those sacrifices were done away and the 10 Commandments never saved Israel and would never save us because we cannot keep them, to violate 1 is to violate them all scripture tells us.
But define what you mean by moral law.

Yes what we call the ten commandments I am refering to as the moral law. However The OT sacrifcial system never saved anyone. If it could have then Christ died in vain.
Hebrews 10:4 For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

 

[revmwc]

Yes what we call the ten commandments I am refering to as the moral law. However The OT sacrifcial system never saved anyone. If it could have then Christ died in vain.
Hebrews 10:4 For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

The O.T. sacrifice system never saved they were saved because of faith. But they were required offer them and that is what Paul is saying we are no longer obligated to offer the sacrifices, no longer under this requirement.

 

[Amy.G]

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Sin cannot have dominion (or authority) over us because we are no longer under it's penalty (the wages of sin is death).

Paul is not saying that we shouldn't strive to obey God's laws (moral) just that sin cannot bring death anymore to the believer because Christ has freed us from it's penalty.



I must be missing something in this debate because this concept is just too simple and well stated in the bible that I can't understand there being any argument about it.

 

[JesusFan]

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Sin cannot have dominion (or authority) over us because we are no longer under it's penalty (the wages of sin is death).

Paul is not saying that we shouldn't strive to obey God's laws (moral) just that sin cannot bring death anymore to the believer because Christ has freed us from it's penalty.



I must be missing something in this debate because this concept is just too simple and well stated in the bible that I can't understand there being any argument about it.

Think that some Christians have extremes on this issue...

free grace would teach that once saved, literally freed from all law, so pretty much do as you will

Some, especially higher reformed, would teach that unless one keeps the law and it requiremets to a large degree, have no assurance of real salvation, as those truely saved will keep the law!

Truth,as usual, somewhere in between!

 

[revmwc]

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Sin cannot have dominion (or authority) over us because we are no longer under it's penalty (the wages of sin is death).

Paul is not saying that we shouldn't strive to obey God's laws (moral) just that sin cannot bring death anymore to the believer because Christ has freed us from it's penalty.



I must be missing something in this debate because this concept is just too simple and well stated in the bible that I can't understand there being any argument about it.

The O.T. believer was saved by Grace too and that faith brought imputation of righteousness. Whe we sin we ahve an advocate with the Father, Jesus and He maketh intercession for us. In the O.T. the believer had to offer scrifices for their sin and the priest would be the advocate, we are no longer under that system of Law.
Sorry if we are confusing you with all this it appears we are saying the same thing just getting some is deeper I guess.

 

[Amy.G]

The O.T. believer was saved by Grace too and that faith brought imputation of righteousness. Whe we sin we ahve an advocate with the Father, Jesus and He maketh intercession for us. In the O.T. the believer had to offer scrifices for their sin and the priest would be the advocate, we are no longer under that system of Law.
Sorry if we are confusing you with all this it appears we are saying the same thing just getting some is deeper I guess.

Yes. I know that.

The topic is not confusing to me. I believe I have a pretty good grasp on scripture concerning the Law.

It seems like we all agree, so what is there to debate? :laugh:

 

[revmwc]

Yes. I know that.

The topic is not confusing to me. I believe I have a pretty good grasp on scripture concerning the Law.

It seems like we all agree, so what is there to debate? :laugh:

I think it was getting clarification on what I was saying, I tend to get a little deep or confusing to some or that is how I perceive it and what some have told me in person when discussing things. So it is probably just me and how I say things.

 

[Amy.G]

I think it was getting clarification on what I was saying, I tend to get a little deep or confusing to some or that is how I perceive it and what some have told me in person when discussing things. So it is probably just me and how I say things.

I think you're doing fine. :thumbs:

 

[freeatlast]

If we are in agreement that the moral law is still in tact and the Christian is responsible to keep it, obey it, then why are so many opposed at hearing it and so many pastors stand offish at preaching about it?

 

[revmwc]

If we are in agreement that the moral law is still in tact and the Christian is responsible to keep it, obey it, then why are so many opposed at hearing it and so many pastors stand offish at preaching about it?

We can't keep it but it is God's standard by which man should live. I said in a message not long ago that preaching sin has become taboo and taboo has become acceptable. That is true.

 

[Tom Butler]

You guys are doing a good job on this subject. May I drop in for a moment to add a couple of thoughts.

1. Nine of the ten commandments were re-affirmed in the New Testament (except Sabbath-worship). That's a good start on moral law.

2. Everything else is encapsulated in "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God...etc...and your neighbor as you love yourself."

So we can certainly preach that law to prepare lost people to hear the gospel of grace.

 

[Amy.G]

If we are in agreement that the moral law is still in tact and the Christian is responsible to keep it, obey it, then why are so many opposed at hearing it and so many pastors stand offish at preaching about it?

Because we are witnessing the apostasy of the church. Joel Osteen, name it & claim it crowd, that's what itching ears want to hear.

 

[quantumfaith]

Because we are witnessing the apostasy of the church. Joel Osteen, name it & claim it crowd, that's what itching ears want to hear.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

The moral law doth for ever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof, and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it; neither doth Christ in the Gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.
( Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8, 10-12; James 2:10, 11; Matthew 5:17-19; Romans 3:31

Iconoclast, are you saying as Christians we need to keep, obey the moral commandments? If so why is their so few messages about it and why are so many who confess Christ so against them?

Free,

Christians are not immoral and lawless. God places His moral law in our heart in the new Covenant...hebrews 8 hebrews 10
False dispensational ideas say we are in an age of grace, not law.
There has always been both. it is not either,or...but both and. We do not keep any law in order to be saved, Jesus did that for us.
We do not keep any law ...to stay saved. But love is the fulfilling of the law.....we obey it.

which one of the ten commandments are we free to break..In Christ?

Isa42 says Jesus magnified the law
We as Image bearers are to also. fallen man still has remnants of the law on his heart, but it has been broken by the fall.
After new birth , we are restored. more later , got to work now.

 

[convicted1]

I am of the belief that the phrase "not under the law" is very miss-understood by many today. In fact there are those who name the name of the Lord and do not even want to hear anything mentioned about commands or rules or what ever some may like to call it.
I would like to hear what you feel is being said when scripture says "not under the law".
I am giving the passages where it is used as well as some about law. So what is your understanding?

Rom 6:14, 15 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid

Gal. 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


1Cor 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law

How are we not under the law and still subject to it at least in some part based on 1Cor 14:34 as Paul points out? Again what do you understand is meant by not being under the law?

Gal. 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The Law was what "slew" us, according to Apostle Paul. The Law was something that the OT saints had to keep, whereas, we who are under the Grace Covenant, are kept by the power of God. The Law was directed towards the "flesh", while the Grace Covenant is directed towards our "inner man".

We no longer offer up bulls, goats, bullocks, sheep, doves, etc. in order to be in communion with God. Now, we are saved by grace through faith, and are now kept by God through His indwelling Spirit in all His believers. We have communion with God through His Spirit.

 

[freeatlast]

Because we are witnessing the apostasy of the church. Joel Osteen, name it & claim it crowd, that's what itching ears want to hear.

Amy I agree that the apostasy is evident for us to see in those who you mentioned, but I think it is also prevalent in the Baptist churches as well. It is just a little more difficult to see when it is of our own.

 

[HankD]

We are not under the law because we are dead to the law, the law does not speak to dead men.

Romans 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.​

We have the new birth with the infusion of the Holy Spirit along with the new nature.​

2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.​

You don't have to tell a sheep to stay out of the cesspool.​

If one claims to be a child of God and is still wallowing in the hog-mire something is seriously wrong.​

HankD​

 

[revmwc]

We are not under the law because we are dead to the law, the law does not speak to dead men.

Romans 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.​

We have the new birth with the infusion of the Holy Spirit along with the new nature.​

2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.​

You don't have to tell a sheep to stay out of the cesspool.​

If one claims to be a child of God and is still wallowing in the hog-mire something is seriously wrong.​

HankD​

What needs to be defined is a persons view of what the Law is.
If you see it only as the Ten Commandments then the Law was just that.
To the Jews the Scrifices were the Law, scritpure was the LAw, Christ fulfilled the sacrifices.

 

[freeatlast]

We are not under the law because we are dead to the law, the law does not speak to dead men.

Romans 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.​

We have the new birth with the infusion of the Holy Spirit along with the new nature.​

2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.​

You don't have to tell a sheep to stay out of the cesspool.​

If one claims to be a child of God and is still wallowing in the hog-mire something is seriously wrong.​

HankD​

Hank, how does one tell if they are in a cesspool?