Nothing in Matthew 24:27, "as the lightning cometh out of the east", relates to Jesus' Second Coming

[Covenanter]

I suppose that you think that I am satanic for not agreeing with Preterism?

I am not judge of people - though it is appropriate for Christians to judge the teaching of others. You needn't claim the label "preterism," just believe the Scriptures.

Haven't heard from you for awhile.

I have other priorities. Arguments with people who express opinions without supporting Scripture have not been productive. I write for onlookers, some of whom have expressed appreciation of my understanding of Scripture.

Exactly who was this Anti-Christ? Was it some minor Roman who helped raze Jerusalem, besiege Masada, change the name of Israel to Palestine in reference to the Philistines, enslave the Jews, and execute the diaspora?

As I wrote previously - Covenanter said: ↑

"Where do you get your info about the antichrist? I get mine from John''s letters. QV
Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming,
even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 2:18
Obviously a first C antichrist! He perished in the prophesied AD 70 destruction."​

You need to realise the great significance of the change from Old Covenant to New. The Covenant promises to Abraham were realised in the saving work our LORD Jesus Christ. That final great shout of "FINISHED" declared a major, fundamental transition that spiritually occurred in a single day, was proclaimed on the day of Pentecost and implemented during the transition period from Pentecost to the AD 70 destruction.

Paul in Gal. 4 & in Hebrews 11 & 12 contrast the eternal holy city with the "Jerusalem that now is."

Excuse me but Rome was a forerunner of Germany and was destroyed for it to a pile of pestilent rubble, some of which you have in the British Isles. And then the UK took over the Holy Land and made a big mess of it too, so I should think that you would know quite well this verse:

Zechariah 12:2 (KJV) Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah [and] against Jerusalem.

Guess what. President Truman supported Israel and Ike did not support the French and British and Israelis at Suez.

Jesus redeemed Israel at Calvary, and many thousands of Jews & proselytes (aka Gentiles) from "every nation under heaven" responded to the Gospel. The "restored kingdom" the disciples asked about in Acts 1 was declared in Acts 2 as realised under the LORD Jesus, David's Son, by his resurrection & ascension. The salvation of the Jews continues throughout Acts as they believe the Gospel & often are rejected from the synagogues.

Many of the prophecies of Zechariah clearly find their fulfilment in the events of Calvary. We should see that as Scriptural guidance to read New Covenant teaching into these OC prophecies. The war against Jerusalem is the war against citizens of the heavenly Jerusalem - Christians - that unbelievers have been conducting through the present millennium. God graciously allows them to live - see 2 Peter 3 - but judgment is coming.

The enduring question is, "Is there any prophetic significance to the present nation of Israel?" The answer given by Jesus & his Apostles is "No!" We have an eternal city & the hope of a glorious New Heaven & New Earth! I do not believe that 50 generations of Jews have suffered the rejection of God during the last 2,000 years. The Gospel has been wide open for them. Persecution of Jews by "Christians" has been by Satan-deceived pretended Christians who also persecuted Gospel Christians, especially baptists.

 

[church mouse guy]

I am not judge of people - though it is appropriate for Christians to judge the teaching of others. You needn't claim the label "preterism," just believe the Scriptures.


I have other priorities. Arguments with people who express opinions without supporting Scripture have not been productive. I write for onlookers, some of whom have expressed appreciation of my understanding of Scripture.



As I wrote previously - Covenanter said: ↑

"Where do you get your info about the antichrist? I get mine from John''s letters. QV
Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming,
even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 2:18
Obviously a first C antichrist! He perished in the prophesied AD 70 destruction."​

You need to realise the great significance of the change from Old Covenant to New. The Covenant promises to Abraham were realised in the saving work our LORD Jesus Christ. That final great shout of "FINISHED" declared a major, fundamental transition that spiritually occurred in a single day, was proclaimed on the day of Pentecost and implemented during the transition period from Pentecost to the AD 70 destruction.

Paul in Gal. 4 & in Hebrews 11 & 12 contrast the eternal holy city with the "Jerusalem that now is."



Jesus redeemed Israel at Calvary, and many thousands of Jews & proselytes (aka Gentiles) from "every nation under heaven" responded to the Gospel. The "restored kingdom" the disciples asked about in Acts 1 was declared in Acts 2 as realised under the LORD Jesus, David's Son, by his resurrection & ascension. The salvation of the Jews continues throughout Acts as they believe the Gospel & often are rejected from the synagogues.

Many of the prophecies of Zechariah clearly find their fulfilment in the events of Calvary. We should see that as Scriptural guidance to read New Covenant teaching into these OC prophecies. The war against Jerusalem is the war against citizens of the heavenly Jerusalem - Christians - that unbelievers have been conducting through the present millennium. God graciously allows them to live - see 2 Peter 3 - but judgment is coming.

The enduring question is, "Is there any prophetic significance to the present nation of Israel?" The answer given by Jesus & his Apostles is "No!" We have an eternal city & the hope of a glorious New Heaven & New Earth! I do not believe that 50 generations of Jews have suffered the rejection of God during the last 2,000 years. The Gospel has been wide open for them. Persecution of Jews by "Christians" has been by Satan-deceived pretended Christians who also persecuted Gospel Christians, especially baptists.

I don't see how your story unfolds. The Anti-Christ is a big deal because he spends 3/12 years trying to make people take the mark of the beast. I don't see that in your chronology. But to be truthful, I don't see that you have a literal event and I agree with Luther who did not think that the Anti-Christ had come yet.

By the way, I have been watching YouTube airing of George Baker as Inspector Wexford, which seems to give a good picture of everyday life. I ran out of Miss Marple, Hercules Poirot, and Nero Wolfe.

 

[kyredneck]

Nothing in Matthew 24:27, "as the lightning cometh out of the east", relates to Jesus' Second Coming

It relates to the Son of man "in His day", which is now, He's EVERYWHERE:

20 And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, Lo, there! Lo, here! go not away, nor follow after them:
24 for as the lightning, when it lighteneth out of the one part under the heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall the Son of man be in his day. Lu 17

'As lightning lights up the entire sky, from the east unto the west, so is He in His kingdom'. A marvelous fulfillment of many OT prophecies, I call it 'the enlargement':

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10:16

And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Mt 24:31

1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah.
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thy habitations; spare not: lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes.
3 For thou shalt spread aboard on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall possess the nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. Isa 54

And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven: but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8.11-12

God enlarge Japheth , And let him dwell in the tents of Shem .... Gen 9:27​

But thanks be unto God, who always leadeth us in triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest through us the savor of his knowledge in every place. 2 Cor 2:14

For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. Hab 2:14

And he shall stand, and shall feed his flock in the strength of Jehovah, in the majesty of the name of Jehovah his God: and they shall abide; for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. Micah 5:4

So shall they fear the name of Jehovah from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun; for he will come as a rushing stream, which the breath of Jehovah driveth. Isa 59:19

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the Gentiles, saith Jehovah of hosts. Mal 1:11

Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass that, in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Hosea 1:10

And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. Isa 2:2

All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah; And all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. Ps 22:27

Jehovah will be terrible unto them; for he will famish all the gods of the earth; and men shall worship him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the nations. Zeph 2:11

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off; and he shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth. Zech 9:9-10

For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband. Gal 4:27

And no man putteth new wine into old wineskins; else the wine will burst the skins, and the wine perisheth, and the skins: but they put new wine into fresh wine-skins. Mark 2:22

After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands; Rev 7:9

At that time will I bring you in, and at that time will I gather you; for I will make you a name and a praise among all the peoples of the earth, when I bring back your captivity before your eyes, saith Jehovah. Zeph 3:11

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the root of Jesse, that standeth for an ensign of the peoples, unto him shall the nations seek; and his resting-place shall be glorious. Isa 11:9-10

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Mt 21:34

 

[Covenanter]

I don't see how your story unfolds. The Anti-Christ is a big deal because he spends 3/12 years trying to make people take the mark of the beast. I don't see that in your chronology. But to be truthful, I don't see that you have a literal event and I agree with Luther who did not think that the Anti-Christ had come yet.

By the way, I have been watching YouTube airing of George Baker as Inspector Wexford, which seems to give a good picture of everyday life. I ran out of Miss Marple, Hercules Poirot, and Nero Wolfe.

As you have no Scriptures to support your assertions, a further reply would be superfluous. Luther wasn't inspired. He persecuted Jews & Baptists.

 

[church mouse guy]

As you have no Scriptures to support your assertions, a further reply would be superfluous. Luther wasn't inspired. He persecuted Jews & Baptists.

The only assertion that I make is that the Anti-Christ tries to get everyone to take the mark of the beast. I don't know why pretererist are so reluctant to describe in detail exactly what happened historically to fulfill prophecy concerning the Second Advent. What do you mean Luther wasn't inspired? He clearly is the quintessential Protestant Reformation figure and he clearly believed that Anti-Christ had not come yet. In fact, I seriously doubt that preterism predates Luther since it is a reaction to Luther, right?

Did you ever see George Baker as Inspector Wexford or do you like mysteries?

 

[Alan Gross]

…
The Roman Army USED, by God, in Providential Judgment against The Jews was to BE SWIFT =
Matthew 24:27;
“Because as the lightning comes out of the east,
and shines even to the west;
so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”
…
Where The Jewish CAR IS is The Roman Army, with their EAGLE insignia are gathered =
Matthew 24: 28;
“Because wherever the carcass is,
there will the eagles be gathered together.”
…
That Tribulation is "no stone upon another" =
The "luminaries" are Political and Religious POWERS that lose their positions and strength =

Matthew 24:29;
“Immediately
after the tribulation of those days
shall the sun be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light,
and the stars shall fall from heaven,
and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:”

 

[church mouse guy]

How do you get from the Second Coming to the Roman Army in 70 AD? And was the Roman Army that swift anyway? It took a long time to build a ramp to Masada. I doubt in any army in the history of the world was as fast as lighting.

 

[Alan Gross]

It relates to the Son of man "in His day", which is now, He's EVERYWHERE:

20 And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, Lo, there! Lo, here! go not away, nor follow after them:
24 for as the lightning, when it lighteneth out of the one part under the heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall the Son of man be in his day. Lu 17

'As lightning lights up the entire sky, from the east unto the west, so is He in His kingdom'. A marvelous fulfillment of many OT prophecies, I call it 'the enlargement':

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10:16

And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Mt 24:31

1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah.
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thy habitations; spare not: lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes.
3 For thou shalt spread aboard on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall possess the nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. Isa 54

And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven: but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8.11-12

God enlarge Japheth , And let him dwell in the tents of Shem .... Gen 9:27​

But thanks be unto God, who always leadeth us in triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest through us the savor of his knowledge in every place. 2 Cor 2:14

For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. Hab 2:14

And he shall stand, and shall feed his flock in the strength of Jehovah, in the majesty of the name of Jehovah his God: and they shall abide; for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. Micah 5:4

So shall they fear the name of Jehovah from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun; for he will come as a rushing stream, which the breath of Jehovah driveth. Isa 59:19

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the Gentiles, saith Jehovah of hosts. Mal 1:11

Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass that, in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Hosea 1:10

And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. Isa 2:2

All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah; And all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. Ps 22:27

Jehovah will be terrible unto them; for he will famish all the gods of the earth; and men shall worship him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the nations. Zeph 2:11

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off; and he shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth. Zech 9:9-10

For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband. Gal 4:27

And no man putteth new wine into old wineskins; else the wine will burst the skins, and the wine perisheth, and the skins: but they put new wine into fresh wine-skins. Mark 2:22

After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands; Rev 7:9

At that time will I bring you in, and at that time will I gather you; for I will make you a name and a praise among all the peoples of the earth, when I bring back your captivity before your eyes, saith Jehovah. Zeph 3:11

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the root of Jesse, that standeth for an ensign of the peoples, unto him shall the nations seek; and his resting-place shall be glorious. Isa 11:9-10

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Mt 21:34

All those verses are very nice.

Each verse in The Bible has an interpretation.

The interpretation of each of these verses is a glorious joy.

The collection they are in is a hodge bodge of several subjects.

The last one gets the Jews Judged in AD 70 in Matthew 24:27 and reduced to a "carcus" in Matthew 24:28, in context, doesn't it.

Some of the verses have to do with AD 70; some The church Age, some The Second Coming, and some The Consumation and Eternal Glory.

None mention a "mill", because "mills" are only in people's fleshly reasoning with a sin-cursed mind.

 

[Alan Gross]

How do you get from the Second Coming to the Roman Army in 70 AD? And was the Roman Army that swift anyway? It took a long time to build a ramp to Masada. I doubt in any army in the history of the world was as fast as lighting.

The is no second Coming of Jesus, in Matthew 24, prior to 24:36.

Jesus' coming "in the clouds" of Judgment, was accomplished by The Eagles, in Matthew 24:28; the Roman Army.

Jesus is answering when the stones will not be left on another and what shall the sign of His Coming, in The CLOUDS of Judgment, be??

Not His Second Coming.

He answers the deciples question about, "when will the End of the World be?, in Matthew 24:35 and following.

Nothing before Matthew 24:35 refers to Jesus' Second Advent, in prophetic, symbolic, Biblical language spoken to His disciples and, today, His Faithful followers.

 

[kyredneck]

The collection they are in is a hodge bodge of several subjects.

In your mind maybe, but in reality there's an amazing underlying continuity to it all that escapes self made prophets like yourself who labor to make the simple complex.

 

[asterisktom]

What do you mean Luther wasn't inspired? He clearly is the quintessential Protestant Reformation figure and he clearly believed that Anti-Christ had not come yet.

Are you really going to let Luther be your go-to guy on eschatology? Consider what he himself wrote about Revelation.

"Martin Luther's Preface to the Revelation of St. John (1522)

About this Book of the Revelation of John, I leave everyone free to hold his own opinions. I would not have anyone bound to my opinion or judgment. I say what I feel. I miss more than one thing in this book, and it makes me consider it to be neither apostolic nor prophetic.

First and foremost, the apostles do not deal with visions, but prophesy in clear and plain words, as do Peter and Paul, and Christ in the gospel. For it befits the apostolic office to speak clearly of Christ and his deeds, without images and visions. Moreover there is no prophet in the Old Testament, to say nothing of the New, who deals so exclusively with visions and images. For myself, I think it approximates the Fourth Book of Esdras; I can in no way detect that the Holy Spirit produced it.

Moreover he seems to me to be going much too far when he commends his own book so highly [Revelation 22]—indeed, more than any of the other sacred books do, though they are much more important—and threatens that if anyone takes away anything from it, God will take away from him, etc. Again, they are supposed to be blessed who keep what is written in this book; and yet no one knows what that is, to say nothing of keeping it. This is just the same as if we did not have the book at all. And there are many far better books available for us to keep.

Many of the fathers also rejected this book a long time ago; although St. Jerome, to be sure, refers to it in exalted terms and says that it is above all praise and that there are as many mysteries in it as words. Still, Jerome cannot prove this at all, and his praise at numerous places is too generous.

Finally, let everyone think of it as his own spirit leads him. My spirit cannot accommodate itself to this book. For me this is reason enough not to think highly of it: Christ is neither taught nor known in it. But to teach Christ, this is the thing which an apostle is bound above all else to do; as Christ says in Acts 1[:8], “You shall be my witnesses.” Therefore I stick to the books which present Christ to me clearly and purely.

The 1522 “Preface to the Revelation of St. John” in Luther’s translation of the New Testament. Pages 398-399 in Luther’s Works Volume 35: Word and Sacrament I (ed. E. Theodore Bachmann; Philadelphia: Fortress, 1960)."

In fact, I seriously doubt that preterism predates Luther since it is a reaction to Luther, right?

No, preterism is a reaction to having finally read the Bible without the blundering "helps" from Luther and others. To be clear, Luther certainly is very useful in other areas, but his eschatology is worthless. Worse than worthless if you rely on it.

 

[Alan Gross]

In your mind maybe, but in reality there's an amazing underlying continuity to it all that escapes self made prophets like yourself who labor to make the simple complex.

Verses have Interpretations.

Their 'underlying continuity' is a way of saying you don't know what the interpretation of them are.

That is what you are saying.

And you and I both know that, as well as, God.

He knows you know you don't know that anybody can know.

So, you call it that 'underlying' craziness?

So, you have a string of verses about which you are disappointed in yourself because you know you are guessing that they could relate in any way except that they are all in The Bible.

In other words, those who aren't Intended to actually see what God Has Written, will tell you that they never even CONSIDER what they mean.

They won't even try.

They are 'hid' from them.

Surprise.

But, they try to make wild rash guesswork out of God's Word and tell people 'they know something'

Wow.

Strong work.

 

[church mouse guy]

Are you really going to let Luther be your go-to guy on eschatology? Consider what he himself wrote about Revelation.

"Martin Luther's Preface to the Revelation of St. John (1522)

About this Book of the Revelation of John, I leave everyone free to hold his own opinions. I would not have anyone bound to my opinion or judgment. I say what I feel. I miss more than one thing in this book, and it makes me consider it to be neither apostolic nor prophetic.

First and foremost, the apostles do not deal with visions, but prophesy in clear and plain words, as do Peter and Paul, and Christ in the gospel. For it befits the apostolic office to speak clearly of Christ and his deeds, without images and visions. Moreover there is no prophet in the Old Testament, to say nothing of the New, who deals so exclusively with visions and images. For myself, I think it approximates the Fourth Book of Esdras; I can in no way detect that the Holy Spirit produced it.

Moreover he seems to me to be going much too far when he commends his own book so highly [Revelation 22]—indeed, more than any of the other sacred books do, though they are much more important—and threatens that if anyone takes away anything from it, God will take away from him, etc. Again, they are supposed to be blessed who keep what is written in this book; and yet no one knows what that is, to say nothing of keeping it. This is just the same as if we did not have the book at all. And there are many far better books available for us to keep.

Many of the fathers also rejected this book a long time ago; although St. Jerome, to be sure, refers to it in exalted terms and says that it is above all praise and that there are as many mysteries in it as words. Still, Jerome cannot prove this at all, and his praise at numerous places is too generous.

Finally, let everyone think of it as his own spirit leads him. My spirit cannot accommodate itself to this book. For me this is reason enough not to think highly of it: Christ is neither taught nor known in it. But to teach Christ, this is the thing which an apostle is bound above all else to do; as Christ says in Acts 1[:8], “You shall be my witnesses.” Therefore I stick to the books which present Christ to me clearly and purely.

The 1522 “Preface to the Revelation of St. John” in Luther’s translation of the New Testament. Pages 398-399 in Luther’s Works Volume 35: Word and Sacrament I (ed. E. Theodore Bachmann; Philadelphia: Fortress, 1960)."



No, preterism is a reaction to having finally read the Bible without the blundering "helps" from Luther and others. To be clear, Luther certainly is very useful in other areas, but his eschatology is worthless. Worse than worthless if you rely on it.

I wasn't talking about all of that. All I was saying is that Martin Luther believed that the Anti-Christ had not been here before his lifetime because Luther said that Pope Leo X, who tried to murder Luther with contract killers, was the Anti-Christ. That shoots down preterism in Luther's time because there weren't any preterist around at that time unless you count Luis De Alcazar? And I just stumbled on this,

Westminster Confession of Faith (1647) included the following in Chapter 25 section 6:

There is no other head of the church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof: but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God. [