Now a Sinner Saved By Grace?

[JamesL]

In Romans 7, Paul was talking about the physical body, and how sinful it is - contrasted with the spirit, the inner man. And that Christ WILL SAVE us from this BODY of death. When? In the resurrection, when the sons of God are revealed. Keep reading through chapter 8

 

[JonC]

Hi JonC, take a gander at 1 John 1:7-8. Note the blood of Christ "cleanses us from all sin. Not has cleansed us, past but in the present. And if we say we have no sin, [referring to born anew saints] we are deceiving ourselves. Thus from our point of view, when we look at our life, we see our shortcomings, places where we need to grow and mature. We do not see ourselves as perfect, but in need of growth to become more Christ-like.

But, at the same time, the blood of Christ is, present tense, cleansing us, and so from the perspective of building up wrath, we do not sin! (1 John 3:6) So we are in fact sinners (from our perspective) saved by grace.

If we say we do not sin, then we are denying our shortcomings, and will not grow. Bottom line, both statements are true, we sin but our sins are not counted as sins because of the blood of Christ. Thus in Christ we are holy and blameless and perfect, but we should not sin all the more so grace can abound, we are to strive to be Christ-like every day.

Hey Van,

I think that one difference between our positions is that I do believe that when we are saved we are born again (or born “from above”). I believe that this means we are cleansed of our sins and God puts within us a new spirit (He takes out our heart of stone and gives us a heart of flesh, so to speak). If regeneration is true, then we are not the same after salvation as we were prior to being saved. It is indeed Christ in us, and we still do sin….as JamesL pointed out very well….but sin is no longer the mark of our lives. But yes, we do still sin.

1 Cor 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

I am afraid that we often leave off that last part (verse 11).

 

[salzer mtn]

I think maybe the reason some Christians don't use the phrase, I'm just a sinner is because the lost would mis-understand and think them not saved. To say in some churches, I am the worst sinner that ever walked, they would think to themselves, this guy needs to be saved. No where in the scripture did Christ refer to his people as being sinners when he addressed them in front of others, but we should look at ourselves as being sinners saved by grace.

 

[salzer mtn]

I hear the I'm a sinner phrase mentioned more times in Cal churches than I do in free will churches. I mentioned this before but a friend of mine and i were in a casual conversation at a public place and my friend called the pastor of a cal church I attend some over and ask him what he thought about me. The pastor said, he is just a low down sinner, or words to that effect. This left both my friend and I struck dumb. After my friend walked away the pastor said to me, I just told him what the bible say's about you. When Christ saw Nathanial he said, behold a Israelite indeed in whom is no guile.

 

[Van]

Hey Van, I think that one difference between our positions is that I do believe that when we are saved we are born again (or born “from above”). I believe that this means we are cleansed of our sins and God puts within us a new spirit (He takes out our heart of stone and gives us a heart of flesh, so to speak). If regeneration is true, then we are not the same after salvation as we were prior to being saved. It is indeed Christ in us, and we still do sin….as JamesL pointed out very well….but sin is no longer the mark of our lives. But yes, we do still sin.

1 Cor 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

I am afraid that we often leave off that last part (verse 11).

Not sure I understand this post. I believe when we are saved we are born anew. When we were originally spiritually born, we were conceived in iniquity. thus in a separated from God unholy state, spiritually dead. And when we are born anew, we are united with God, and made holy. But, during this period (after salvation but still physically on earth) we are undergoing progressive sanctification, where we still commit what we see as sin, as missing the mark, as falling short of the glory of God. However, the blood of Christ continually cleanses us from all our shortcomings.

Therefore we are not the same after salvation, we are a new creation created for good works, and we are indwelt with the Spirit of Christ. Regeneration is just another word meaning born anew. We have undergone our spiritual regeneration and are looking forward to our physical regeneration, in our glorified bodies at Christ's second coming.

Not sure what you mean by "sin not being the mark of our lives." If this means in our heart, we really do not want to sin, I agree.

So as far as I can see, we agree, we are sinners (in our eyes) saved by grace, and we must strive to become more like Christ and serve Christ. Thus, as born anew believers, we have been set apart spiritually in Christ, Paul refers to this as being baptized into Christ, thus sanctified positionally. Transferred from not in Christ, separated from God, to being in Christ, united with God, thus regenerated, made alive, born anew. In Christ we undergo the circumcision of Christ, where are sin burden (what God holds against us) is removed, and thus we are justified. Thus our new birth, includes the washing of regeneration.

 

[Van]

JonC, I see another phrase that you might study a bit, the "body of flesh (sin)." Does this refer to our physical bodies? I think not. And thus the removal does not refer to our adoption as sons at Christ's second coming.

If you study the word translated "body" you might find it could mean shadow. Our sin casts a shadow (the wrath we have stored up) and when this body of flesh (sin) is removed we are justified, made holy and blameless.

 

[JonC]

Van,
Sorry for my lack of clarity. I was posting over a phone when a chance came along.

Not sure I understand this post. ….
Therefore we are not the same after salvation, we are a new creation created for good works, and we are indwelt with the Spirit of Christ. Regeneration is just another word meaning born anew. We have undergone our spiritual regeneration and are looking forward to our physical regeneration, in our glorified bodies at Christ's second coming.

Your statement above is what I mean. Too often we present ourselves as exactly like the lost except for a positional relationship (in Christ). But you are 100% right - we are reborn (regenerated) and are not the same as we were prior to salvation. To be a Christian is to have received from God a new heart and a new spirit. How, then, can we simply identify ourselves as sinners in order to identify with the lost? Scripturally we cannot.
Salzer mtn makes a very good point as he distinguishes the context by which Paul identified himself as a sinner.

No where in the scripture did Christ refer to his people as being sinners when he addressed them in front of others, but we should look at ourselves as being sinners saved by grace.

So I will grant that we are sinners saved by grace in terms of dealing with Christians. None of us saved ourselves, and none of us could have. But we are not like the lost because we are born again, given a new spirit and a new heart (ontologically changed).

So as far as I can see, we agree, we are sinners (in our eyes) saved by grace, and we must strive to become more like Christ and serve Christ. Thus, as born anew believers, we have been set apart spiritually in Christ, Paul refers to this as being baptized into Christ, thus sanctified positionally. Transferred from not in Christ, separated from God, to being in Christ, united with God, thus regenerated, made alive, born anew. In Christ we undergo the circumcision of Christ, where are sin burden (what God holds against us) is removed, and thus we are justified. Thus our new birth, includes the washing of regeneration.

Yes, I think that we agree here. Upon salvation we are changed (we are not the same as the lost that we are trying to reach, but it is not of our own doing).

JonC, I see another phrase that you might study a bit, the "body of flesh (sin)." Does this refer to our physical bodies? I think not. And thus the removal does not refer to our adoption as sons at Christ's second coming.

If you study the word translated "body" you might find it could mean shadow. Our sin casts a shadow (the wrath we have stored up) and when this body of flesh (sin) is removed we are justified, made holy and blameless.

I agree that this is not our physical bodies. I think that it is our fleshly desires (we struggle with the flesh).

 

[salzer mtn]

If the righteousness scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear ? 1 Pet 4:18

 

[JamesL]

I agree that this is not our physical bodies. I think that it is our fleshly desires (we struggle with the flesh).

Look how Paul progressed throygtthrough Romans, speaking of the body

Romans 6:6
knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

Romans 6:13
and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

Romans 7:5
For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.

Romans 7:23
but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

Romans 8:10
If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness


He went out of his way to show, from chapters 5-8 the effects if sin in this mortal body, and contrast that against the inner man (which he deslt with in chapters 4-8), and to show that it us in the resurrection that this body will be regenerated

 

[Van]

I agree that this is not our physical bodies. I think that it is our fleshly desires (we struggle with the flesh).

We agree the circumcision of Christ does not remove our physical bodies. But we are far apart as to what is removed by the circumcision of Christ.

First, we must deal with variant readings, with the CT reading "body of the flesh" but the Byzantine (WEB) reading "body of the sins of the flesh."

Commentators differ as to the meaning, with some indicating our sin nature or fleshly desires are removed because we are given a new heart.
Most however, do agree we are speaking of a spiritual change. But I think it is more than simply being set aside for God, i.e. circumcision indicating dedicated to God, but is in fact an alteration in our condition.

And I will repeat myself, body could be translated shadow, i.e. the shadow of the flesh, our sin burden, or what God has against us. But when we are propitiated, with the circumcision of Christ, our sin burden is removed. Thus we are justified.

 

[JonC]

We agree the circumcision of Christ does not remove our physical bodies. But we are far apart as to what is removed by the circumcision of Christ..... But I think it is more than simply being set aside for God, i.e. circumcision indicating dedicated to God, but is in fact an alteration in our condition.

And I will repeat myself, body could be translated shadow, i.e. the shadow of the flesh, our sin burden, or what God has against us. But when we are propitiated, with the circumcision of Christ, our sin burden is removed. Thus we are justified.

I also believe that it is much more than simply being set aside for God. As I stated previously, I believe it is ontological - it is regeneration/a new birth. I would not say that we are propitiated (but I would agree that Christ is the propitiation for our sins) and I also agree that our sin burden is removed.

My biggest concern here is that too often we concentrate on our sinfulness for the lost, or in order to identify with the lost. I do not think that this is the appropriate approach (instead I believe we are to live as holy, sanctified, and set apart for God people so that the world will see the difference). I do understand that we are sinners who are saved by grace, and that apart from Christ we are nothing.

 

[Van]

Hi JohC, I will take the partial victory, we agree in general.

I would say we are unregenerate when God baptizes us into Christ, where we undergo the circumcision of Christ, and therefore being justified, we are united with God (now holy and blameless and perfect) and therefore we are made alive and thus born anew. So we do not agree on the sequence but agree that when we arise in Christ a new creation we have been made alive, and our sin burden has been removed by the washing of regeneration. Close enough.

And I agree with you that we should not make any accommodation for the flesh. To the idea that we suggest that sinning is ok, Paul would respond, "may it never be!"