Now that Muhammed is guilty by jury, we need a hangin'.

[Matt Black]

Seems that there are plenty here who support it...

I can't find a single instance of Jesus commanding the death penalty; posters have been asked to supply chapter and verse for this...and the wait goes on. On the contrary, Jesus eg in Matt 5-7 attacks the OT system of justice eg: "you have heard it said 'an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth', but I say to you love your enemies and do good to those who hate you"; surely this overturns the principle of 'life for life'?

On Rom 13, "the sword" can equally be said to apply to the use of force by the civil government in order to keep the peace.

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Helen]

Matt, are we then no longer created in the image of God?

Christ's injunctives regarding turning the other cheek and loving one's enemies are personal injunctions -- they are how we are to run our personal lives. They have nothing to do with rules of the society we live in. They are rules for born-again Christians -- followers of Christ.

Every culture on earth is a vast majority unsaved people. For the most part God has never indicated an interest in cultural mandates biblically. However He does make an extremely strong statement about the necessity of capital punishment for murder to Noah in Genesis 9. Even animals who attack this image of God to kill man must be killed.

We are still made in the image of God. The mandate still holds, for God's sake. (I am NOT using that as 'an expression', but as a reality.)

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by Helen:

3. If sin were only 'explained in our hearts' then we would be falling for the Satanic temptation used for all men: "think for yourself! How do you FEEL about it? Nevermind what that silly Old Testament says. Things are different now."

In regards to Matt 5:18 and your above quote:


I refer you to Romans 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held: that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

If we live in a Christian nation, then we should exemplify the new laws in our society.
The new law is one of a spiritual nature found in our hearts, not written out in the old testament. Further reading in Romans will make that clear.

 

[Helen]

Great, Post-it. Now you please go find a Christian culture where the citizens are at least mostly, if not all, true followers of Jesus Christ and we'll have ourselves a deal!

 

[Matt Black]

Helen, as always, powerfully argued

. Yes, we are all made in the image of God - - does not therefore capital punishment for murder destroy two such 'images', instead of one? What is good about that?

Re 'turn the other cheek'? Yes, this does primarily apply to believers; indeed there are many commentators who suggest that the entire Sermon on the Mount was addressed privately to the disciples, not to the wider crowd. Following this argument, yes, in a sense it is up to the secular authority to decide how to punish its wrongdoers.But this does not mean that Christians should not have a view that is contrary to the government; we are not merely passive spectators or acquiesers in its actions, Rom 13 notwithstanding. Not many of us here feel we have nothing we ought to say to the secular auhorities on, say, abortion, homosexuality, school prayers etc, to name but a few 'hot potatoes' - why should we not seek to similarly apply Biblical principles when it comes to capital punishment?

Taken in their wider context, Christ's words do have a wider application, in that they hark back to the more universal statements made at the beginning of the OT. You can chart a progression on this issue quite clearly through the pages of the Bible, from Gen 4:15 (vengeance, lawlessness, blood-feud almost), through Ex 21:24, Lev 24:20, Deut 19:21 (retribution, capital punishment, law)to Luke 17:4 (reversal of Gen 4:15, forgiveness, restoration). Seems to me that capital punishment sits well with the middle of the scale but not the latter example.

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Helen]

Time's short at this moment, Matt, but I'll try to come back on later for something more fully. However the though occurs to me that the destruction of two images would have been just as relevant in the time of Noah as now, right? And yet, God commanded it.

Got to run down for more paint (entry hall and one bedroom to go!) and a new toilet paper holder as the old one for one bathroom is a total wreck. The house is starting to look so nice we almost want to stay here!

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by Helen:
Great, Post-it. Now you please go find a Christian culture where the citizens are at least mostly, if not all, true followers of Jesus Christ and we'll have ourselves a deal!

If that is the case, then why are you wanting to impose Jewish OT law on America?

 

[Ben W]

O.k I cant help myself , How many of those who use the Levitical Law as support for Capital Punishment keep the Seventh Day Sabbath?

 

[Daniel David]

Ben, I suggest reading the posts. I don't base my belief on capital punishment on the O.T.

I did point out that the following affirmed it in one way or another:

Noah - prelaw
Moses - law
Christ - New Covenant
Paul - New Covenant

Besides, why do I want to keep the ceremonial sign of the Old Covenant when Christ is my sabbath?

 

[LadyEagle]

Matt.18
[6] But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Mark.9
[42] And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

Luke.17
[2] It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.


Looks like Jesus endorsing capital punishment to me. You don't bob in the sea with a millstone around your neck!

 

[LadyEagle]

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by post-it:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Helen:
Great, Post-it. Now you please go find a Christian culture where the citizens are at least mostly, if not all, true followers of Jesus Christ and we'll have ourselves a deal!

If that is the case, then why are you wanting to impose Jewish OT law on America? </font>[/QUOTE]Noah was JEWISH???????

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by post-it:

Originally posted by Helen:
[qb] Great, Post-it. Now you please go find a Christian culture where the citizens are at least mostly, if not all, true followers of Jesus Christ and we'll have ourselves a deal!

If that is the case, then why are you wanting to impose Hebrew OT law on America?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by post-it:
If that is the case, then why are you wanting to impose Hebrew OT law on America?

This was just answered twice, once by Daniel David and once by Helen. Capital punishment is prelaw, stemming from the institution of human government in Gen 9. The Law does not happen for probably a thousand more years or so, though my date line escapes me at the moment.

 

[Don]

I heard on the radio that the defense attorney brought up all kinds of things, like the fact that the defendent's loved one had just given him the goodbye, that he loved kids, that he was just going through an exceptionally bad time in his life (I'm paraphrasing and not going into too much detail).

Then I thought about some of the people that the defendent murdered; about how one of them might have just been given the goodbye by their loved one, that they all probably would admit they loved kids, that at least one of them was probably going through an exceptionally bad time in their life...but that none of them had picked up a weapon and taken it out on people they didn't even know.

It has been proposed that we put this man in a small cell for the rest of his life. I hope that those proposing this are aware of the fact that they're proposing that we feed, clothe, provide medicine and shelter, etc. for this man for the next 20, 30, 40, 60, whatever years. In essence, we take care of this man for his crime.

I pray that Muhammed finds Christ, and is saved.

But he needs to be taken outside and shot through the head, quickly and as painlessly as possible.

Yes, I said "painlessly." The death sentence, while mandated by the Bible, is NOT something we are to take pleasure or joy in; it's a serious consequence of serious actions. When we take pleasure in or make sport of the consequence, we associate and encourage some form of acceptability (proof of this is our "anti-heroes" we see on TV and movie screens these days). In other words, we've lost the ideal, which is no killing.

We must ensure that everyone realizes killing is a serious business, not one to joke about or aspire to.

 

[Ben W]

Seriously, why is it that the U.S is the only Anglo Saxon country still doing Capital Punishment?

Christ is the Sabbath, fair enough. Yet on that reasoning all of the old covanant is done away with, and Capital Punishment no longer applies.

 

[Jim1999]

Maybe getting the guns off the streets would be a great step.

The Old Testament verse so often quoted as supporting capital punishment BY THE STATE is actually divine law deliverable by God, not us. And that is at divine privilege, and was used discriminately by God..check out all the exceptions to the rule.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Jim1999:
The Old Testament verse so often quoted as supporting capital punishment BY THE STATE is actually divine law deliverable by God, not us. And that is at divine privilege, and was used discriminately by God..check out all the exceptions to the rule.

Jim, How can you not know your Bible better than this??? The verse is Genesis 9:6 and I have cited it here for you to read. I have highlighted a portion that you either are unfamiliar with or choose to ignore.

GGenesis 9:6 "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man.

Very clearly, the capital punishment envisioned here by God was not the punishment doled out by God, but by man. It is divine law but it was given to man to obey. That is exactly what the verse says and it makes it clear that is man who is to take the responsibility to carry out capital punishment. A very strong case can be made that the failure to carry out capital punishment when man's blood has been shed by a known person is direct disobedience to God and is a lack of respect for the image of God in man.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Ben W:
Seriously, why is it that the U.S is the only Anglo Saxon country still doing Capital Punishment?

What does this mean?? This seems offensive to suggest that anglo saxon countries should know better while others should not. You need to reword this or rethink it one.

The answer?? Perhaps because there is still a vestige of respect for human life and freedom here. Perhaps because there is a still an knowledge of the command of God on this matter. On this, the US should be admired and followed, not abhored.

What will it take for people to understand that life is valuable because it is the image of God??

Christ is the Sabbath, fair enough. Yet on that reasoning all of the old covanant is done away with, and Capital Punishment no longer applies.

This was already addressed ... several times. Capital punishment is not a part of the old covenant. It predates the old covenant by at least a thousand years.

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by Ben W:
Yet on that reasoning all of the old covanant is done away with, and Capital Punishment no longer applies.

Except that both Christ and Paul reaffirmed it. That would be New Covenant. I don't get my marching orders from Moses.