Now that Muhammed is guilty by jury, we need a hangin'.

[doug_mmm]

Wish we had capital punishment here in Australia but in our 'enlightenment' ie ignoring God we dont.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Jim1999:
When capital punishment was legal and done in public in Canada, common theft was punishable by hanging. Great crowds would gather and even bring picnic baskets. Whilst a theft was hanged on the public gallows, sometimes decapitated by the noose, od=ften strangled to death, with feet kicking out,,,,,,,,much like the coloured folk who were hanged from trees back in the fifties and even sixties, by many of the same people who hail capital punishment to-day, amongst the crowds were people picking pockets, who, if caught, would be hanged from those same gallows. Capital punishment is NOT a deterrent. If it were so, Texas would be the cleanest state in the USA. It kills more people than any other state,,almost any other country, yet has the highest rate of mortal crimes.

Cheers,

Jim

Hey Jim,

I've seen you use this argument before regarding this issue. When did petty theft result in the death penalty? Where did you come by this historical information? Can you please give us a source or two? Likewise, how often were these pick-pockets actually caught and put to death?

This debate reminds me of the gun control debate. When I lived in the metro Washington, D.C. area they passed a law that made it illegal to possess a gun in Washington, D.C. During this same time period Washington, D.C. became known as the "murder Capital of the world" (with over 300 gun-shot murders each year).

At the same time the city of Kennesaw, GA passed an ordinance that required every home-owner within its jurisdiction to own a gun. The crime rate dropped significantly.

The question is why did these two things happen? It is clearly because criminals don't care if they are breaking the law by possessing a gun. They have made up their minds to commit crimes. Thus, breaking one more petty law means nothing to them. You see what the law makers in D.C. did was to remove guns from the hands of law-abidding citizens and nothing else.

However, when faced with an armed populace, as in Kennesaw, GA, criminals think twice before they attempt to break the law (meaning commit crimes like home invasion, robbery, murder, etc.). They know that their life is at greater risk.

The reason the death penalty does not seem to deter crime in the U.S. is because we do not enforce it quickly enough. The convicted should receive one appeal that must be made within a year from receiving the death sentence, then if still found guilty they should go straight from the appeal courtroom to the execution chamber.

[ December 02, 2003, 12:55 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

[rsr]

When did petty theft result in the death penalty?

It was common in English common law, upon which American law is based, as well as European law, to exact draconian penalties for "minor offenses," such as stealing a loaf of bread. Les Miserables is an example. The exportation to America, and later Australia, is another.

Law enforcement was so uncertain in earlier times that, when a miscreant could be caught and convicted, unreasonable sentences were imposed as a lesson to those who might, just might, get caught. It had little to do with justice.

I suppose if we imposed Shariah we might have a chance of cowing the criminals into submission.

 

[rsr]

The reason the death penalty does not seem to deter crime in the U.S. is because we do not enforce it quickly enough. The convicted should receive one appeal that must be made within a year from receiving the death sentence, then if still found guilty they should go straight from the appeal courtroom to the execution chamber.

And if it takes two or five years for DNA or other evidence to surface that would prove innocence?

Maybe I watched "The Oxbow Incident" too many times.

 

[Bible-boy]

I admit that what I'm talking about surely raises the stakes. However, that simply means that the police, the prosecution, and the defense must rise to the occassion. Rock soild investigation by both sides, present the evidence, motion from the jury, sentence from the Judge, one appeal, and act.

 

[rsr]

And who decides if they rise to the occasion? The Sniper is, perhaps, too easy a case. There are plenty of examples of justice gone awry. Why not take the time to make sure things are done properly?

I fear too much of our view of "traditional" justice is derived from Hollywood, and Judge Parker. Try 'em, convict 'em, hang 'em. That's just not the way it's been, by and large, except in rushes to judgement and blatant miscarriages of justice.

 

[Ben W]

How many years did Rueben "Hurricane" Carter spend in jail when he was completley innocent? He had more than one trial as well and was found guilty on all occasions based on raciscm.

How many have been cleared on DNA evidence many years after there supposed judged guilt, plenty.

Still no responses I see on Christian or specifically Baptist Denominations that support Capital Punishment. Wonder why that is?

 

[Bible-boy]

Yes, but part of the cases that you all are referring to were old cases that were tried before DNA research was a standardized practice. Those guys that are still on "death row" now have the chance to use DNA evidence to prove that they are not guilty. However, new (present day modern) cases should be using DNA evidence from the get-go.

My point is that when we are talking about a Capital punishment case both sides had better have their act together. It is serious business. Mostly I am frustrated by the cases that do not attempt to prove that the accused is not guilty, but rather try to get the person "off" on legal technicalities.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Ben W:
Still no responses I see on Christian or specifically Baptist Denominations that support Capital Punishment. Wonder why that is?

Ben,

I don't know the answer to this question. I don't have the time to research it for you and you can research it just as easy as anyone else can.

 

[Ben W]

Maybe it is because there arnt any, now I wonder why that is?

 

[Bible-boy]

Hey Ben,

You said:

Maybe it is because there arnt any, now I wonder why that is?

That is a pretty big assumption you are making. You know what they say about why one should not assume things, right?

If you go to the SBCnet website and do a search on the term Death Penalty you will find many links to articles that show that the SBC supports Capital Punishment.

Try this SBCnet link. You will especially want to see the articles on Al Mohler, Southern Seminary's Russell Moore, The SBC's Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission's Barrett Duke, and the Resolutions passed at the 2000 SBC.

In fact the messengers to the Annual Southern Baptist Convention in 2000, held in Florida, approved a resolution in support of Capital Punishment.

RESOLUTION NO. 5

ON CAPITAL PUNISHMENT

WHEREAS, The Bible teaches that every human life has sacred value (Genesis 1:27) and forbids the taking of innocent human life (Exodus 20:13); and

WHEREAS, God has vested in the civil magistrate the responsibility of protecting the innocent and punishing the guilty (Romans 13:1-3); and

WHEREAS, We recognize that fallen human nature has made impossible a perfect judicial system; and

WHEREAS, God authorized capital punishment for murder after the Noahic Flood, validating its legitimacy in human society (Genesis 9:6); and

WHEREAS, God forbids personal revenge (Romans 12:19) and has established capital punishment as a just and appropriate means by which the civil magistrate may punish those guilty of capital crimes (Romans 13:4); and

WHEREAS, God requires proof of guilt before any punishment is administered (Deuteronomy 19:15-19); and

WHEREAS, God's instructions require a civil magistrate to judge all people equally under the law, regardless of class or status (Leviticus 19:15; Deuteronomy 1:17); and

WHEREAS, All people, including those guilty of capital crimes, are created in the image of God and should be treated with dignity (Genesis 1:27).

Therefore, be it RESOLVED, That the messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention, meeting in Orlando, Florida, June 13-14, 2000, support the fair and equitable use of capital punishment by civil magistrates as a legitimate form of punishment for those guilty of murder or treasonous acts that result in death; and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we urge that capital punishment be administered only when the pursuit of truth and justice result in clear and overwhelming evidence of guilt; and

Be it further RESOLVED, That because of our deep reverence for human life, our profound respect for the rights of individuals, and our respect for the law, we call for vigilance, justice, and equity in the criminal justice system; and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we urge that capital punishment be applied as justly and as fairly as possible without undue delay, without reference to the race, class, or status of the guilty; and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we call on civil magistrates to use humane means in administering capital punishment; and

Be it finally RESOLVED, That we commit ourselves to love, to pray for, and to minister the gospel to victims and perpetrators of crimes, realizing that only in Christ is there forgiveness of sin, reconciliation, emotional and spiritual healing, and the gift of eternal life.

There are articles at the 24th - 27th links on the SBCnet link above about this resolution. I hope this helps you in your research on the issue.

Also, see the following articles at the SBCnet link above:

SBC support for death penalty based on Bible, Duke says, Jun 8, 2001 By Tom Strode

Mohler defends capital punishment on Larry King panel with Dershowitz, Jun 23, 2000 By Bryan Cribb

Death penalty biblical, not vengeful, Southern Seminary's Moore says, Nov 13, 2001
By Michael Foust

Sanctity of human life demands capital punishment, Mohler says on TV forum, February 27, 2002 By Michael Foust

FIRST-PERSON: Timothy McVeigh may find forgiveness but he still faces the consequences, May 14, 2001 By Kelly Boggs

Al Mohler defends death penalty in CNN debate with Phil Donahue Jun 12, 2001 By Michael Foust

Committee proposes 10 resolutions, including support of capital punishment, Jun 13, 2000
By Tom Strode

Time to address death penalty, SBC resolutions chairman says, Jun 15, 2000
By Tom Strode

Baptists support capital punishment, adopt 6 resolutions in morning session, Jun 14, 2000
By Tom Strode

FIRST-PERSON: Death penalty underscores sanctity of human life, Feb 6, 2003 By James A. Smith Sr.

FIRST-PERSON: The demand of justice, Jan 23, 2003 By Gary Ledbetter

Studies suggest death penalty is deterrent to crime, Land says, Jan 15, 2003 By Dwayne Hastings

Death penalty is biblical response for child's killer, Land contends, Jul 23, 2002 By Dwayne Hastings

[ December 03, 2003, 05:52 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

[Major B]

Originally posted by rsr:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

And if it takes two or five years for DNA or other evidence to surface that would prove innocence?

Maybe I watched "The Oxbow Incident" too many times. </font>[/QUOTE]You have.

DNA evidence does not normally "surface" years later. It is found at the crime scene, on victims, etc. The people who are being freed today (from old convictions), by DNA evidence were convicted before DNA analysis was accepted in court as reliable, or before the tests were even possible. These are old cases. In new cases, DNA evidence is routinely part of the picture.

 

[Bible-boy]

It sure has gotten quiet in here for such a hottly debated topic.

 

[Ben W]

Well that is the problem, what is it, 8 pages that we have gone so far, and nobody seems to have effectivley won anyone over to their particular side, so like many of the really contraversial ones it peters out. Yet hopefully we are all still friends irrespectivley.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Ben W:
Well that is the problem, what is it, 8 pages that we have gone so far, and nobody seems to have effectivley won anyone over to their particular side, so like many of the really contraversial ones it peters out. Yet hopefully we are all still friends irrespectivley.

I agree...

and you are still wrong and I am still right my friend!

 

[Ben W]