So You are saying that God did not ordain/predestine to use the evil acts that men willfully did to kill off His only begotten Son, the Mesiah jesus Christ?
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Now Yer Just Makin' Things Up
- Thread starter Aaron
- Start date
So You are saying that God did not ordain/predestine to use the evil acts that men willfully did to kill off His only begotten Son, the Mesiah jesus Christ?
No he is not saying that. Of course God uses man's evil deeds as part of His plans, but this is what Aaron posted (post #1) that WD called blasphemy:
Aaron didn't say God "uses" evil deeds. He said God "ordained" them. See the difference? If God ordains that you commit sin, then He is the author of sin. This is the view of the HyperCal.
1. Ordained could mean many things, including but not limited to "using". Job said God had taken away his family and wealth "the Lord takes away." (when we all know Satan did it). Then God's word goes out of the way to say "Job did not sin with his lips"...that is...It is not a sin to say "God did this" when refering to evil that has befallen us. (how does that work, I don't know.)
2. If you study the history you will see that the very men who fought against Hyper-Calvinism were the calvinists who would most likely agree that God "ordained" all events that happen. Hyper-Calvinists were and are something different...they are not just "really serious calvinists."
preacher4truth
Active Member
No, it doesn't make Him the "author of sin," (and whatever evil sense that means to you) since He is a perfect being in whom is no darkness at all. God knew and knows every single thing that would come to pass, and still put His plan into action. Does that make it His fault concerning all the wickedness that He knew men would commit, yet still putting His plan into action?
Sometimes when I read the various non cal postings here on the BB, find it amusing that some find it troubeling that God would base election on NOTHING but His own Good Will and Pleasure, unto His glory
"Who are you, o man, to find fault with God?"
preacher4truth
Active Member
EXACTLY!
Job did not sin with his lips in his understanding, and statement about God. He would not find fault with God in ALL that God does. He instead simply trusted Him in all of it.
God tempts no man to sin, therefore He does not ordain a person to sin. No mainline Calvinist believes that He does.
And it is unfair, inaccurate, and insulting to think that non cals find any fault with God. I love God above all else and get so tired of being accused of not loving Him, or believing Him. You have no right to make that judgment.
We find fault with the Calvinist theology, not God.
God commands us to sin not. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever to say that He ordains us to sin.
And it is unfair, inaccurate, and insulting to think that non cals find any fault with God. I love God above all else and get so tired of being accused of not loving Him, or believing Him. You have no right to make that judgment.
We find fault with the Calvinist theology, not God.
God commands us to sin not. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever to say that He ordains us to sin.
Last edited by a moderator:
psalms109:31
Active Member
Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.
Proverbs 3
1 My son, do not forget my teaching,
but keep my commands in your heart,
2 for they will prolong your life many years
and bring you peace and prosperity.
3 Let love and faithfulness never leave you;
bind them around your neck,
write them on the tablet of your heart.
4 Then you will win favor and a good name
in the sight of God and man.
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.[Or will direct your paths]
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the LORD and shun evil.
Since one man does not come to God they way you have does that not make their way wrong? Since all men are different with different histories and lived different lives before, God had to bring them to the truth the way He does. Why question the way some have come to Jesus the way they have come instead of praising God that they have come to Christ?
Evil has come from man and their own evil desire, God gives man over to their own evil desire,
If I have a desire to steal and murder and God puts a hedge of protection around you. Will it stop me from doing my will? No, I will just murder and steal from someone else.
Luke 13
Repent or Perish
1 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.
Proverbs 3
1 My son, do not forget my teaching,
but keep my commands in your heart,
2 for they will prolong your life many years
and bring you peace and prosperity.
3 Let love and faithfulness never leave you;
bind them around your neck,
write them on the tablet of your heart.
4 Then you will win favor and a good name
in the sight of God and man.
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.[Or will direct your paths]
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the LORD and shun evil.
Since one man does not come to God they way you have does that not make their way wrong? Since all men are different with different histories and lived different lives before, God had to bring them to the truth the way He does. Why question the way some have come to Jesus the way they have come instead of praising God that they have come to Christ?
Evil has come from man and their own evil desire, God gives man over to their own evil desire,
If I have a desire to steal and murder and God puts a hedge of protection around you. Will it stop me from doing my will? No, I will just murder and steal from someone else.
Luke 13
Repent or Perish
1 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
Last edited by a moderator:
psalms109:31
Active Member
I forgot to add for your salvation someone else had to pay.
freeatlast
New Member
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
freeatlast
New Member
God elects and man chooses from feee will.
ONE has to be though the ultimate basis for salvation, correct?
freeatlast
New Member
NOPE, both equally.
So the Will of God and The will of man are dead even steven than?
freeatlast
New Member
NOPE! Those are your words not mine.
Read prior posting that you made, are you saying unless a man wills it, God cannot even save Him?
freeatlast
New Member
Like I said you do date rape with what is written, listen here
http://www.gerald285.com/web_media/BirthmarksofaBeliever.32.mp3
Last edited by a moderator:
Of course you don't find fault with God, and no one said that is your claim. It is, however, the effect of your rejection of Calvinism. Calvinism presents a God that you find fault with. It happens to be a more accurate image of God than the noncalvinist fashions to conform to his own sense of justice.
Now the above is not said in any malice or hostility. It's just the matter-of-fact statement of the logical end of the matter. If one cannot recognize the logical end of a premise without throwing a temper tantrum, then perhaps he (or she) should not be playing with the big boys.
freeatlast
New Member
Only to the person who claims to be a Calvinist.