Now you too can be

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast

Just a word of caution. In challenging Winman you are taking on the very best in "I-eisegesis" on this Board!

Well I just offered the I will's of ezk 34......this will trump any attempt at
I eisegesis:thumbsup::thumbsup:

I give Winman credit in that he owns up to what he posts, he stands for what he believes. The question is the object of what he holds onto.

 

[Bob Alkire]

Alan Cairns is really good to listen to. You always get something when he works through the scripture:thumbsup::wavey:

My friend, we agree on him. Good man to talk to, it has been about 10 years or so, but what a blessing.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Harold...

You responded to Amy with...

Amy, of course; but God does not elect those who choose Him. God elects without looking forward to any action by man. That's what a sovereign God does.

Error. Falsehood. A fairy tale.

God has chosen to save those who place thier faith in Christ, rather then reject. The "elect" are the "whosoever wills".

Thats what a loving, fair, and just God does.

 

[Benjamin]

Winman, if you want to start a tread on “Iconoism” I could contribute a WHOLE lot of material.

Eh, ...on second thought we all know the name calling Icon would engage in for those canal apostates who dare question his interpretation of the “historic confession of faith” and anyway Dr. Bob would probably show up to shut it down citing it to be an unchristian tread started by “fools” to begin personal attacks, or maybe do a stealth fly by and do it, nevermind, just a thought.

 

[thomas15]

Winman, if you want to start a tread on “Iconoism” I could contribute a WHOLE lot of material.

WWRCSS (What would R C Sproul say?)

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman, if you want to start a tread on “Iconoism” I could contribute a WHOLE lot of material.

Eh, ...on second thought we all know the name calling Icon would engage in for those canal apostates who dare question his interpretation of the “historic confession of faith” and anyway Dr. Bob would probably show up to shut it down citing it to be an unchristian tread started by “fools” to begin personal attacks, or maybe do a stealth fly by and do it, nevermind, just a thought.

back from vacation so soon.....guess you could not stay away:laugh:

good idea benjamin.....was going to start a thread with you in mind-

benjamincarnal speculation down your throat.....but no one was interested:laugh::wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

Harold...

You responded to Amy with...



Error. Falsehood. A fairy tale.

God has chosen to save those who place thier faith in Christ, rather then reject. The "elect" are the "whosoever wills".

Thats what a loving, fair, and just God does.

AIC....this god that you describe is only in your imagination.what scripture do you believe leads to such an idea?

 

[Winman]

Winman,

You skipped ezk36 again...here it is-
Quote:
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

The word regeneration does not appear here....but this is regeneration----can you see that God says he will do it, He will cause it to be.No christian should miss this truth.No christian should pervert this truth.

You don't get it, I do not deny regeneration, I believe it as much as you, only I believe the scriptures clearly teach a man is regenerated AFTER they first believe.

No man can be spiritually alive until he first believes on Christ. Until you believe you are DEAD IN TRESPASSES AND SINS.

To say a man is spiritually alive before believing on Jesus is to deny Jesus. You are claiming a man has spiritual life OUTSIDE of Jesus. This is why Reformed theology is such serious error, it denies Jesus.

You have made Jesus SECONDARY. It is not Jesus that gives you life in Calvinism, it is the Father regenerating you before you believe that gives life in Calvinism. You have completely denied Jesus.

In your response you demonstrated how you fragment the scripture here-

verse 13 gives the explanation...as many have showed you

not of the WILL of man....but of God

Verse 13 is simply explaining that being regenerated is an act of God that no man can perform. That does not negate verse 12 that says to those who received Jesus and believed on his name, to these persons God gave the power to become a son of God. A person becomes a son of God, they are born again, after they believe.

It is like going to a brain surgeon. You cannot operate on your own brain and heal yourself. But if you trust the doctor and allow him to operate, he has the knowledge and ability to heal you.

That is all John 1:12-13 is saying. To those who receive Jesus and believe on him, to those persons God will give them the power to be born again. He will heal the person sick in sin. Only God has this power and ability.

Like ezk 36...it is all of God:type:

One of us has it exactly backwards and wrong:thumbsup:

Tell me without changing the verses to say otherwise....explain the Ezk 36 passage....or you can also explain how 16 times in ezk 34 we are told what the Good Shepherd is going to do for the elect....which Jesus explains in Jn 10

6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.

7 Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the Lord;

8 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock;

9 Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the Lord;

10 Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

11 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.

12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.

14 I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.

15 I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord God.

16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.

17 And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats.

18 Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures? and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet?

19 And as for my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet.
20 Therefore thus saith the Lord God unto them; Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle.

21 Because ye have thrust with side and with shoulder, and pushed all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad;

22 Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle.

23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.

24 And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it.

25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.

26 And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing.

27 And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the Lord, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them.

28 And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid.

29 And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more.

30 Thus shall they know that I the Lord their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord God.

31 And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord God.

God does it all.The sheep are glad He does.

The sheep are those whom the Father has seen in his foreknowledge that will believe in time. God has chosen these persons, they are his sheep, and he gives those persons to Jesus.

We are elect according to the foreknowledge of the Father. You know this as well as I do. You simply deny that God has chosen those who believe. But the scriptures show God does choose those who believe.

Jam 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

God has chosen the poor who are rich in faith. It is right there, but you deny it. The OT has many verses that say the poor, the fatherless, and the oppressed trust in God. These are the persons God chose to confound the wise and mighty, that no man should boast.

So again, I can show you scripture that God has chosen those rich in faith. You will deny it, but I have shown you.

 

[Iconoclast]

You don't get it, I do not deny regeneration, I believe it as much as you, only I believe the scriptures clearly teach a man is regenerated AFTER they first believe.

No man can be spiritually alive until he first believes on Christ. Until you believe you are DEAD IN TRESPASSES AND SINS.

To say a man is spiritually alive before believing on Jesus is to deny Jesus. You are claiming a man has spiritual life OUTSIDE of Jesus. This is why Reformed theology is such serious error, it denies Jesus.

You have made Jesus SECONDARY. It is not Jesus that gives you life in Calvinism, it is the Father regenerating you before you believe that gives life in Calvinism. You have completely denied Jesus.



Verse 13 is simply explaining that being regenerated is an act of God that no man can perform. That does not negate verse 12 that says to those who received Jesus and believed on his name, to these persons God gave the power to become a son of God. A person becomes a son of God, they are born again, after they believe.

It is like going to a brain surgeon. You cannot operate on your own brain and heal yourself. But if you trust the doctor and allow him to operate, he has the knowledge and ability to heal you.

That is all John 1:12-13 is saying. To those who receive Jesus and believe on him, to those persons God will give them the power to be born again. He will heal the person sick in sin. Only God has this power and ability.



The sheep are those whom the Father has seen in his foreknowledge that will believe in time. God has chosen these persons, they are his sheep, and he gives those persons to Jesus.

We are elect according to the foreknowledge of the Father. You know this as well as I do. You simply deny that God has chosen those who believe. But the scriptures show God does choose those who believe.

Jam 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

God has chosen the poor who are rich in faith. It is right there, but you deny it. The OT has many verses that say the poor, the fatherless, and the oppressed trust in God. These are the persons God chose to confound the wise and mighty, that no man should boast.

So again, I can show you scripture that God has chosen those rich in faith. You will deny it, but I have shown you.

All calvinists believe that saving faith and belief happen at the same time,so you just beat up a strawman,

James 2 does not teach what you are saying, only you and van think it does:BangHead: No matter how many times you post it, it is wrong each time


poverty does not give someone saving faith inherently... this idea that the poor love God before He loves them is anti scriptural.
This idea of a god looking for "poor'people who are rich in faith is all wrong.It denies the covenant work.

You bypass ezk 36 saying you believe in regeneration, but in reality you do not believe in a dead Adam that needs to be regenerated.

if in your scheme a sinner believes...and has eternal life....he would not need regeneration , because he is really not dead!

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclst...

I shared with you the truth that God does not have robots, some pre-programed to to go to heaven, while other un-lucky ones are pre-programmed for hell. Rather He actually saves the ones who CHOOSE Him.

And you responded with...

AIC....this god that you describe is only in your imagination.what scripture do you believe leads to such an idea?

You amaze me, Iconoclast. you are the King of diseingenuous. The Master of diverson. The Grand Poobah of of slipperyness.

He askes for scripture.

I have given you scripture regarding this issue. More than once. Others have have given you scriptures. More than once. And yet you continue to ask for scriptures

Well this is the last time I am going to do this for you. After this, you can look up the scriptures yourself.

Here you go, for the last time....

These scriptures make it abunduntly clear that men and women are not puppets on a string, or robots, rather...they MAKE CHOICES, including regarding being saved.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;
17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
(NIV)

Deuteronomy 11:26-28
26 See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse--
27 the blessing if you obey the commands of the LORD your God that I am giving you today;
28 the curse if you disobey the commands of the LORD your God and turn from the way that I command you today by following other gods, which you have not known.
(NIV)

Deuteronomy 30:15-18
15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction.
16 For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them,
18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
(NIV)

Joshua 24:15
15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."
(NIV)

2 Samuel 24:12
12 "Go and tell David, 'This is what the LORD says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.'"
(NIV)

I Kings 3:14
14 And if you walk in my ways and obey my statutes and commands as David your father did, I will give you a long life."
(NIV)

2 Chronicles 26:5
5 He sought God during the days of Zechariah, who instructed him in the fear of God. As long as he sought the LORD, God gave him success.
(NIV)

Matthew 23:37
37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
(NIV)

John 15:6-7
6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.
(NIV)

Colossians 1:22-23
22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation--
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
(NIV)

Hebrews 3:14-15
14 We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.
15 As has just been said: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion."
(NIV)

Hebrews 3:6
6 But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast.
(NIV)

Hebrews 6:11-12
11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure.
12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.
(NIV)

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
(NIV)

Hebrews 10:36-39
36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.
37 For in just a very little while, "He who is coming will come and will not delay.
38 But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him."
39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.
(NIV)

1 Timothy 2:1-4
1 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone--
2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
(NIV)

1 Timothy 4:1
1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
(NIV)

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
(NIV)

I John 2:1-2
1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense-- Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
(NIV)

 

[Winman]

All calvinists believe that saving faith and belief happen at the same time,so you just beat up a strawman,

What kind of statement is this? Faith and belief are the same thing. But if you are speaking of being regenerated, many Calvinists believe a person can be regenerated for years, even decades before believing on Jesus. I have showed quotes from Calvinists (such as R. C. Sproul's associate) before. Luke said he believes a person can be regenerated a "long time" before they are "saved", but he did not explain exactly what he meant by that.

You cannot be spiritually alive for a millisecond before you believe, until you believe on Jesus you are DEAD IN SIN.

James 2 does not teach what you are saying, only you and van think it does:BangHead: No matter how many times you post it, it is wrong each time

Absolutely false, millions of Christians have and do believe God chose those whom he saw in his foreknowledge would believe in time. This is a very orthodox view held by millions of Christians.

poverty does not give someone saving faith inherently... this idea that the poor love God before He loves them is anti scriptural.
This idea of a god looking for "poor'people who are rich in faith is all wrong.It denies the covenant work.

You are correct, being poor does not guarantee a person will have faith in God. And some rich people believe in God. But generally speaking, it is the poor and downtrodden, those who are despised among men who trust in God. There are many verses that say this in scripture.

Psa 14:6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.

We have the story of the poor widow who gave her last two coins to the offering. Jesus said she gave more that all the rest. Others gave out of their abundance, but she gave her entire living and depended and trusted in God to take care of her.

Mar 12:43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

There was no such thing as Social Security in gospel times. A widow had a very difficult time surviving. But this poor widow cast her last two coins, all that she had into the treasury. She trusted and depended on God that he would take care of her. She was rich in faith.

You bypass ezk 36 saying you believe in regeneration, but in reality you do not believe in a dead Adam that needs to be regenerated.

I believe that a person must be born again to be saved, just as Jesus said.

if in your scheme a sinner believes...and has eternal life....he would not need regeneration , because he is really not dead!

What? Regeneration means to be made alive again. If a person believes and has eternal life, they are regenerated, that is what regenerated means.

No one can be spiritually alive until they believe and their sins are forgiven. But you teach a person is regenerated while they are still in their sins and before they have believed on Jesus. Besides being utterly illogical, it contradicts all scripture and denies Jesus. No man has life until he believes on Jesus.

 

[Yeshua1]

God planned, before the foundation of the earth that He would give His Son a gift, which is the church. Now if God looked down through time to choose all those who would believe in Christ (for salvation/to be the church), and lo and behold there was no one who was going to believe, then God's plan would have been a failure. So....how does God ensure that there will be a church? Doesn't He have to elect people to believe?
Just a thought.

guess He Hoped that enough sinners would come to christ, that enough of them would make the right decision to accept, not reject Christ!

 

[Yeshua1]

Harold...

You responded to Amy with...



Error. Falsehood. A fairy tale.

God has chosen to save those who place thier faith in Christ, rather then reject. The "elect" are the "whosoever wills".

Thats what a loving, fair, and just God does.

again, you have apllied human reasoning to what God should be doing!

truth is that ALL are lost, under judgement and condemnation, that unless the Lord intervened, NONE would get saved...

What he did was to send His Son to die as atonement for his people, and brught those chosen by him to faith in yeshua, and allowed the lost to stay as they desired to be, lost!

 

[Yeshua1]

What kind of statement is this? Faith and belief are the same thing. But if you are speaking of being regenerated, many Calvinists believe a person can be regenerated for years, even decades before believing on Jesus. I have showed quotes from Calvinists (such as R. C. Sproul's associate) before. Luke said he believes a person can be regenerated a "long time" before they are "saved", but he did not explain exactly what he meant by that.

You cannot be spiritually alive for a millisecond before you believe, until you believe on Jesus you are DEAD IN SIN.



Absolutely false, millions of Christians have and do believe God chose those whom he saw in his foreknowledge would believe in time. This is a very orthodox view held by millions of Christians.



You are correct, being poor does not guarantee a person will have faith in God. And some rich people believe in God. But generally speaking, it is the poor and downtrodden, those who are despised among men who trust in God. There are many verses that say this in scripture.

Psa 14:6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.

We have the story of the poor widow who gave her last two coins to the offering. Jesus said she gave more that all the rest. Others gave out of their abundance, but she gave her entire living and depended and trusted in God to take care of her.

Mar 12:43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

There was no such thing as Social Security in gospel times. A widow had a very difficult time surviving. But this poor widow cast her last two coins, all that she had into the treasury. She trusted and depended on God that he would take care of her. She was rich in faith.



I believe that a person must be born again to be saved, just as Jesus said.



What? Regeneration means to be made alive again. If a person believes and has eternal life, they are regenerated, that is what regenerated means.

No one can be spiritually alive until they believe and their sins are forgiven. But you teach a person is regenerated while they are still in their sins and before they have believed on Jesus. Besides being utterly illogical, it contradicts all scripture and denies Jesus. No man has life until he believes on Jesus.

Not ALL cals hold to extended periods of time between regeneration and faith in jesus!

I hold to it being same time, part of the salvation process, as God sends his Spirit to enable us to be able to respond by faith to gospel moment we hear it! God moves in a fashion towards us to make us able to respond to Gospel, and at that time we will place faith in jesus to get saved!

 

[Winman]

Not ALL cals hold to extended periods of time between regeneration and faith in jesus!

I never said they did, but Iconoclast said all Calvinists believe faith and belief happen at the same time. Of course they do, faith is belief!

But not all Calvinists believe regeneration and faith happen at the same time.

I hold to it being same time, part of the salvation process, as God sends his Spirit to enable us to be able to respond by faith to gospel moment we hear it! God moves in a fashion towards us to make us able to respond to Gospel, and at that time we will place faith in jesus to get saved!

If you believe a person is made alive so that they are able to believe, then you believe regeneration precedes faith. This denies Jesus, it says a man can have spiritual life without Jesus. And those Calvinists who believe a person can be regenerated for long periods of time before believing on Jesus believe they have life without Jesus for long periods, possibly years or decades.

You don't get it, if you are spiritually alive before believing, you have no need to believe, you are already alive. But worse, you deny Christ, you say a man has life without Christ.

This is no minor issue, you should think long and hard about it. It is not a game.

 

[Winman]

Double post

 

[Alive in Christ]

again, you have apllied human reasoning to what God should be doing!

Not true. My conclusions ALWAYS come from the truth found in the scriptures.

truth is that ALL are lost, under judgement and condemnation, that unless the Lord intervened, NONE would get saved...

I agree. God sends discernable conviction and light to every person who comes into the world, at least once, but usually many times. At that point, the one under conviction has a decision to make.

What he did was to send His Son to die as atonement for his people, and brught those chosen by him to faith in yeshua, and allowed the lost to stay as they desired to be, lost!

He died for all people. Every single person who comes into the world. They all receive Light, and they all have a decision to make.

God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

I never said they did, but Iconoclast said all Calvinists believe faith and belief happen at the same time. Of course they do, faith is belief!

But not all Calvinists believe regeneration and faith happen at the same time.



If you believe a person is made alive so that they are able to believe, then you believe regeneration precedes faith. This denies Jesus, it says a man can have spiritual life without Jesus. And those Calvinists who believe a person can be regenerated for long periods of time before believing on Jesus believe they have life without Jesus for long periods, possibly years or decades.

You don't get it, if you are spiritually alive before believing, you have no need to believe, you are already alive. But worse, you deny Christ, you say a man has life without Christ.

This is no minor issue, you should think long and hard about it. It is not a game.

What is known is that unless God does SOMETHING to us while we hear the gospel of Jesus, it falls upon deaf ears of a sinner whose nature precludes him 'naturally" responding and getting saved!

Call it regeneration, openning them up, enabling, God still has to do it!

 

[Yeshua1]

Not true. My conclusions ALWAYS come from the truth found in the scriptures.



I agree. God sends discernable conviction and light to every person who comes into the world, at least once, but usually many times. At that point, the one under conviction has a decision to make.



He died for all people. Every single person who comes into the world.

God bless.

Did he provide propiation/satisfaction for ALL sinners to God then?

 

[agedman]

Genesis 3

14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.​

The reason I posted this promise of the Redeemer, is to highlight the emnity part.

Her seed = the seed of promised redemption.

Thy seed = the seed of Satan and satanic influence.

It seems to me that had not God both foreknowledge and foreordained the saved, then He (God) would not have had the authority to promise enmity.

I realize that some would contend that "her seed" refers to Christ. However, if that is true (which I also do so think) then what specific person does "thy seed" refer? If one is specific the other should also be specific. If one is not, then the other should not.

We are saved in time because that is an event that God planned and purposed from the beginning.

The "experience" of salvation is NOT for God, but for the believer. God has already saved that person before they ever "come to the knowledge of Christ."

How is the above statement proved?

Go back and consider the parable of the sower: Who is in charge of the dirt? The land owner (farmer).

Who is the land owner (farmer) of that parable? God

Some are appointed to be saved. Some are not. That is God's business and though the people contend that God was "unfair" the prophet showed them, clearly, God was completely just, fair, and extended grace as He determined.

It may sound cruel to humankind thinking, but then we are not God. We are but dirt - dust.

I am somewhat alarmed that some do not look at Godly conviction as part of the regenerative work. Seems like the unregenerate could care less about Godly conviction and can only feel "sorry for getting caught" emotionalism.

Again, who prepared the dirt? Was all dirt prepared?

A good farmer knows that preparation takes a much longer time than planting and harvest.