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NRA Recommendation

Oldtimer

New Member
Rubbish:BangHead:

I'm being harsh.
The US is a goldfish bowl on this issue and the water is putrid.

Written by a Canadian (not a US gun supporter). It is a 21 page report filled with graphs, charts, footnotes, & stats to support the opinion given.
-- Emphasis added --
http://www.saf.org/journal/16/TheFailedExperiment.pdf

The Failed Experiment
Gun Control and Public Safety in Canada, Australia, England and Wales


Widely televised firearm murders in many countries during the 20th Century have spurred politicians to introduce restrictive gun laws. The politicians then promise that the new restrictions will reduce criminal violence and ―create a safer society.‖ It is time to pause and ask if gun laws actually do reduce criminal violence.

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The United States provides a valuable point of comparison for assessing crime rates because the criminal justice system there differs so drastically from those in Europe and the Commonwealth. Not only are criminal penalties typically more severe in the United States, often much more severe, but also conviction and incarceration rates are usually much higher. Perhaps the most striking difference is that qualified citizens in the United States can carry concealed handguns for self-defence. During the past few decades, more than 25 states in the United States passed laws allowing responsible citizens to carry concealed handguns. In 2003, there are 35 states where citizens can get such a permit.

The upshot is that violent crime rates, and homicide rates in particular, have been falling in the United States. The drop in the American crime rate is even more impressive when compared with the rest of the world. In 18 of the 25 countries surveyed by the British Home Office, violent crime increased during the 1990s. This contrast should provoke thinking people to wonder what happened in those countries where they introduced increasingly restrictive firearm laws.

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AUSTRALIA
Following shocking killings in 1996, the Australian government made sweeping changes to the firearm legislation in 1997. Unfortunately, the recent firearm regulations have not made the streets of Australia any safer. The total homicide rate, after having remained basically flat from 1995 to 2001, has now begun climbing again. The decline in homicide rate in the gun-permissive United States stands out against the trend in Australia.

The divergence between Australia and the United States is even more apparent with violent crime. While violent crime is decreasing in the United States, it is increasing in Australia. Over the past six years, the overall rate of violent crime in Australia has continued to increase. Robbery and armed robbery rates continue to rise. Armed robbery has increased 166% nationwide. The confiscation and destruction of legally owned firearms cost Australian taxpayers at least $500 million. The costs of the police services bureaucracy, including the hugely costly infrastructure of the gun registration system, has increased by $200 million since 1997. And for what? There has been no visible impact on violent crime. It is impossible to justify such a massive amount of the taxpayers’ money for no decrease in crime. For that kind of tax money, the police could have had more patrol cars, shorter shifts, or maybe even better equipment. Think of how many lives might have been saved.
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Gun crimes may dominate the news but violence involving guns is not qualitatively worse than other violence: being bludgeoned to death is not less horrific than being shot to death. In this study, the United States stands out in that most murders (63%) are committed with firearms, while in Australia, Canada or England relatively few murderers use firearms (9%–31%).9 In the Commonwealth, knives are usually preferred to guns by murderers.10 For example, at least as many murders are committed with knives as guns in Canada and in Australia twice as many murders involve knives as guns (Dauvergne 2001: 8; Mouzos 2001).

Although suicide is not a violent crime, it is often included in the discussion of violence involving guns. Relatively few people (between 4% and 20%) use guns to commit suicide in the Commonwealth countries examined here. As usual, the United States is unique, with slightly more than half of suicides involving a gun (56%). Despite the higher percentage of gun suicides, the United States has a lower total suicide rate than either Australia or Canada (Australian Bureau of Statistics 2002; Preville 2003; NCIPC 2003).

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Gun death‖ is a red herring, as it conflates two very different phenomena, homicide and suicide, to produce a large and misleading number (Mauser and Stanbury 2003). It is inappropriate to use ―gun deaths‖ to evaluate gun laws for several reasons. First, guns are not involved in the bulk of criminal violence, so ―gun deaths‖ ignores much of importance for evaluating public safety. Second, even though few people use guns to commit suicide, suicides by gunshot constitute the lion’s share of ―gun deaths‖ in developed countries. For example, 80% of gun deaths in Canada are suicides, while 76% of gun deaths in Australia are suicides. Third, there is little support for the claim that gun laws of any sort reduce the suicide rate (Kleck 1997: 288; Jacobs 2002: 6).

(Skip to the conclusion)

CONCLUSION
This brief review of gun laws shows that disarming the public has not reduced criminal violence in any country examined here: not in Great Britain, not in Canada, and not in Australia. In all cases, disarming the public has been ineffective, expensive, and often counter productive. In all cases, the means have involved setting up expensive bureaucracies that produce no noticeable improvement to public safety or have made the situation worse.

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Only the United States has witnessed a dramatic drop in criminal violence over the past decade. The justice system in the United States differs in many ways from those in the Commonwealth but one of the important reasons for the drop in violent crime may be that responsible citizens are increasingly carrying concealed handguns (Lott 2000). In contrast, authorities in the Commonwealth insist upon a monopoly of force. If the goal is deterring criminal violence, perhaps it is time for Commonwealth countries to encourage more individual self-reliance.

Gun laws may not reduce violent crime but criminal violence causes gun laws—at least, well-publicized crimes do. The only winner in this drama is bureaucracy. The rest of us lose liberty as well as safety. It is an illusion that further tinkering with the law will protect the public since no law, no matter how restrictive, can protect us from people who decide to commit violent crimes. There have always been criminals, and there have always been deranged people. Murder has been illegal for thousands of years: we need only remember the saga of Cain and Abel. The mass media find gun crimes more newsworthy but multiple civilian murders by arson have historically claimed more lives than incidents involving firearms. The truth is we live in a dangerous world and the government cannot protect us, if for no other reason than the police cannot be everywhere. We must ultimately rely upon ourselves and it is only right we have the necessary tools to do so.

Look at the color of the water in your own glass fishbowl before casting stones at ours.​
 

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Rubbish:BangHead:
You'll have the same number of kids and teachers dead.
There will just be another weapon wasting space in a classroom cupboard.

I think most Australians look at America's response to this issue with amazement. Gun sales break new records - How dumb is it to respond to a shooting tradgedy by increasing the availability of weapons.

Arm teachers to prevent these killiings - insanity!
Responding to such a situation needs constant training at a level only available to law enforcement officers and some front line members of defence forces. Teachers are not policemen or soldiers. Don't expect them to respond appropriately if at all."

Keep in mind, these killings aren't restricted to classrooms.

One commentator in Australia noted "there are enough guns already in circulation on America, that even if gun sales were stopped right now, these sorts of killings will continue for the next hundred years".

I have no reason to disbelieve this statement, but why does public sentiment seem to be in favour of adding fuel to the fire? The US has a nightmare issue to be managed for a century or more. Today however is probably as good a time as any to start locking down the weapons supply.

Alternatively, if your grandchildren haven't been killed by a 6 year old upset at not getting candy at the supermarket, they might be wondering as we do in Australia, how such a lobotomised society could first;
  • Allow the situation to develop and then,
  • Perpetuate and exacerbate the problem for decades to come.


I'm being harsh.
The US is a goldfish bowl on this issue and the water is putrid.

The premise of this statement is false, being that guns are the problem. And that a lack of them will cure the problem and no more killing will take place. What you are being is silly.
 

Streetsweeper

New Member
The premise of this statement is false, being that guns are the problem. And that a lack of them will cure the problem and no more killing will take place. What you are being is silly.

No.
The premise of the statement is that firearms leverage the damage potential of the problem.

firearms do nothing to fix the problem. They just make it worse.
 
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Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
No.
The premise of the statement is that weapons leverage the damage potential of the problem.

Weapons do nothing to fix the problem. They just make it worse.

Using the term "weapons" discredits you. How many "weapons" are we going to outlaw? What weapon was used in the Oklahoma City Bombing?
 

Streetsweeper

New Member
Using the term "weapons" discredits you. How many "weapons" are we going to outlaw? What weapon was used in the Oklahoma City Bombing?
Of course you will have noted I edited my post to change the word 'weapon' to 'firearm', about the same time as you responded. I felt I had been overemphasising the term, although it is strictly correct.

Tell me what weapons other than firearms you would like available for random killings?

In what way does my use of the term 'weapon' discredit me?

I certainly hope to emphasise that firearms are not toys. They are in fact designed as weapons, and their prevalence in the community facilitates their use in taking the lives of people.
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
Don't we have 23 Million people unemployed in America and many of those recieve benefits per week until they find work. Why don't we have them earn their benefits by standing guard at schools. I'm not saying armed, unless they are willing and can be trained, plus pass a background check.

Merry Christmas
There is no such thing as "unarmed security." The proper term is "the guy who runs away first when the guy with the gun arrives."

And in most states armed security officers must not only undergo training (8 hours classroom and 6 hours range time on top of security training usually equaling about 40 hours - at least in California) but also pass an extensive FBI background check. :)
 

Oldtimer

New Member
Of course you will have noted I edited my post to change the word 'weapon' to 'firearm', about the same time as you responded. I felt I had been overemphasising the term, although it is strictly correct.

Tell me what weapons other than firearms you would like available for random killings?

In what way does my use of the term 'weapon' discredit me?

I certainly hope to emphasise that firearms are not toys. They are in fact designed as weapons, and their prevalence in the community facilitates their use in taking the lives of people.

Isn't any object used to inflict injury and/or death on another person a "weapon"? Regardless of whether it's used offensively or defensively.

Since the atom was first split to produce a weapon, would you also propose that all uses of nuclear energy be banned, as well? Forbid its use in hospitals, for example, as it can kill as well as heal? Killing people isn't the only use for firearms.

How about any compound that can bring about death if injested, whether intended, accidental, or as an act of murder?

What steps has Australia taken to remove knives from the hands of her citizens? From what I gather, knives are the weapon of choice there.

Further, how do you explain away the death rate statistics of the Swiss where almost every man is legally required to own a firearm?
 
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