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Number Of His Name
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Marcia
Active Member
Ed Edwards said:
I tend to agree. Also, Daniel was predicting someone who was an antitype of the antichrist who did come and do some bad stuff and that was a foreshadowing of the antichrist to come.
Is that crystal clear to all? :wavey:
There are many antitypes in the Bible and prophecies can be about someone who has already come and someone else still to come.
I lean toward pre-trib rapture.
standingfirminChrist said:
God's people are appointed to persecution.
2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution
Daniel shows that there will be saved people here during the reign of the antichrist.
Daniel 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
I get the impression that it is the catholic spies that pretend to be protestant ministers that are mostly pushing this idea of a pre tribulation rapture. Alberto Rivera, former Jesuit priest, said they are preparing for a future inquisition against other religions. They don't want other religions prepared for escaping the antichrist's persecutions; that would make it hard for them to be caught in the inquisition. The pre trib rapture idea will compel christians to not be prepared.
The only one of them that I saw preaching a post trib rapture is Pat Robertson.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Why are people taking The Revelation of John literally? It is apocalyptic literature. This type of literature is symbolic in nature. Look at Daniel. All the prophesy about Jesus and the Pharasees and the Saducees and the multitude of others got it wrong. Why so dogmatic about this we can't verify?
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
mrtumnus said:
Yep, the following statement misses the mark on so many levels:
//Alberto Rivera, former Jesuit priest, said they are preparing for a future inquisition against other religions.//
1.The Alberto Rivera myth is promoted by a COMIC BOOK COMPANY:
http://www.chick.com/default.asp
Chick Comics? I find it hard to base my doctrines on a comic book. Sorry, I'll stick with the MVs over comics :saint:
2. The very meaning of 'inquisition' refers to INTERNAL Roman Catholic Church (RCC) investigation and punishment. So the phrase 'against other religions' contradicts the meaning of 'inquisition'.
While I have not read any other posts in this thread, I heartily agree with this. There is a long scriptural tradition of using wild exaggerated imagery involving e.g. the destruction of celestial bodies in order to represent much more "mundane", earthly events.Thinkingstuff said:
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Marcia said:
Daniel was talking about Antiochus IV Epiphanies. I don't think Daniels prophesy involves periods after Jesus establishes his kingdom. (or christianity not some future kingdom.)
Ed Edwards:
"Chick Comics? I find it hard to base my doctrines on a comic book. Sorry, I'll stick with the MVs over comics"
GE
I want to give credit where credit is due. I once read in a Chick comic about Augustine who would have made it his life's task to destroy the trustworthy manuscripts of th New Testament - or something akin - it was long agao. So I wrote them a letter - it was BPC (Before Personal Computers). And they really wrote back to me, and said they cannot account for something like that having gone to print. They didn't retract or make a fuss; but they at least responded, which is much to their credit!
"Chick Comics? I find it hard to base my doctrines on a comic book. Sorry, I'll stick with the MVs over comics"
GE
I want to give credit where credit is due. I once read in a Chick comic about Augustine who would have made it his life's task to destroy the trustworthy manuscripts of th New Testament - or something akin - it was long agao. So I wrote them a letter - it was BPC (Before Personal Computers). And they really wrote back to me, and said they cannot account for something like that having gone to print. They didn't retract or make a fuss; but they at least responded, which is much to their credit!
Originally Posted by Thinkingstuff
Why are people taking The Revelation of John literally? It is apocalyptic literature. This type of literature is symbolic in nature. Look at Daniel. All the prophesy about Jesus and the Pharasees and the Saducees and the multitude of others got it wrong. Why so dogmatic about this we can't verify?
Andre
While I have not read any other posts in this thread, I heartily agree with this. There is a long scriptural tradition of using wild exaggerated imagery involving e.g. the destruction of celestial bodies in order to represent much more "mundane", earthly events.
GE
Yes. But there's much quite plain and literal in the Revelation that should be straightforward Gospel. Like the title assures the reader: "The revelation / making known of Jesus". It's not the obscuring of Him. I call Revelation the Fifth Gospel.
It can be an edifying Book like no other, and we generally far too easily just parrot Luther in his complaints about Revelation. Luther I believe did not put in enough effort; the poor guy had too much hay on his fork and too many forks in the stack! No one should blame him; but therefor should also not follow him so blindly in this.
Why are people taking The Revelation of John literally? It is apocalyptic literature. This type of literature is symbolic in nature. Look at Daniel. All the prophesy about Jesus and the Pharasees and the Saducees and the multitude of others got it wrong. Why so dogmatic about this we can't verify?
Andre
While I have not read any other posts in this thread, I heartily agree with this. There is a long scriptural tradition of using wild exaggerated imagery involving e.g. the destruction of celestial bodies in order to represent much more "mundane", earthly events.
GE
Yes. But there's much quite plain and literal in the Revelation that should be straightforward Gospel. Like the title assures the reader: "The revelation / making known of Jesus". It's not the obscuring of Him. I call Revelation the Fifth Gospel.
It can be an edifying Book like no other, and we generally far too easily just parrot Luther in his complaints about Revelation. Luther I believe did not put in enough effort; the poor guy had too much hay on his fork and too many forks in the stack! No one should blame him; but therefor should also not follow him so blindly in this.
Thinkingstuff said:
GE
Where does Daniel 'talk about' AE? It's nonsense. Least of any place, in chapter 9 where Daniel uses the seventy weeks-time-symbol --- everything in there shows Christ and the work of Christ.
And if I remember my history of the previous century right, the 'higher' or 'text'- critics had it against nothing but the unmistakable Christological significance of the passage. It has such a strong resemblance of the Jesus of Gospels that they said Daniel was written after Christ! ANYBODY ABLE TO CORRECT ME IF i'M WRONG - I never really learnt that history so well.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
Daniel 11:31
I believe this refers to Antiochus Epiphanies when he erected the statue of Zeus in the temple.
Marcia
Active Member
Thinkingstuff said:
Right! Daniel was given a prophetic vision of this before it happened. AE was an antitype of the antichrist, as I mentioned in a previous post in this thread.
Guess what? God knows the future, folks! And He chose to give Daniel some visions although Daniel may not have totally understood. But it was written down for us - at least the part God wants us to know.
I did a Kay Arthur study on Daniel with a small group, and then we did Revelation. Very enlightening and edifying!! I recommend it.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Marcia said:
I'm sorry but I believe the book of Daniel was entirely fulfilled when Rome succumbed to christianity. Now their may be similarities in the Future and Revelations may refer to these. But for the most part Revelations has a lot of symbolic literature resembeling 1 Enoch, the Assumption of Moses, The apocalypse of Baruch and some other Essene writings.
mrtumnus said:
I don't trust catholic publications that try to cover up the truth about an undercover agent. [Catholicism calls itself Christian you know.]
I read Is Alberto For Real, which answers the accusations made about Rivera.
Read it online:
http://www.chick.com/reading/books/199/0199cont.asp
If catholics that pretend to be protestant and still take orders from the Jesuits publish something, it makes no differance if they pretend to be protestant or not; it is still a catholic publication.
Since they have a long history of infiltrating other churches and governments with undercover agents, don't be too quick to take anyone at face value.-- or any publication for that matter.
Marcia
Active Member
Thinkingstuff said:
Wow, you and I are on a different page! Are you Preterist or Partial Preterist?
It doesn't matter if Revelation (not Revelations) has some similarities to 1 Enoch, Assumption of Moses, or those other non-canonical books. Revelation is part of the canon and that makes it different.
Ed Edwards said:
Don't trust you anymore Ed.
Read the history of inquisitions and see they were directed against protestants and the Jewish and Muslim religions as well as disobedient catholics.
[Torture, murder and maim 50 million people, in inquisitions lasting 1600 years, and then still call yourself Christian.--hypocracy What happened to Love your neighbor as yourself; and all things whatsoever you would that men should do to you, do ye also to them. Inquisitions don't follow the teachings of Christ and inquisitors go to hell as murderers.]
Chick uses a comic book format to show real truth, because it is successful with the masses of people. He uses Rivera, who is a real person telling the real truth to fictional comic book characters. It is the use of the fictional characters that Rivera tells it to that allows Chick to use a legal disclaimer at the beginning of the magazine. That disclaimer prevents him from being sued for slander while he still puts out the truth. [The vatican spent over a million dollars, (1970s dollars) to try to stop those magazines. But freedom of speech in America prevailed.]
The magazine called The Godfathers was so potent that the vatican was even afraid to mention it by name.
[A documented expose' of the vatican's role in starting World wars 1 and 2.]
Read it online here:
http://www.chick.com/reading/comics/0114/0114_fourpages.asp?Pg=01
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Thinkingstuff said:
That cannot refer to what Antiochus Epiphanes did. Jesus plainly said that it is a future event from the time that Jesus said it. Antiochus lived before Jesus.
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
It is refering to a future event that the Antichrist will do in the future about 3.5 years before the end of the age when Jesus returns.
Thinkingstuff said:
Rome never did succomb to Christianity.
Rome was failing as a political power being assaulted by barbarians. So Constantine mixed the old pagan Roman religion with Christianity and created Roman catholicism, for the leaders to stay in power ruling over a religion.
Change Jupiter's name to Peter. Change venus' name to Mary and exalt Mary to the status of a goddess.-- the sort of things that were done.
Only the Roman form of the pagan/ christian mixure religion was allowed by Rome. The real christians that followed the New Testament teachings, without the paganism, were hunted down and killed by the state of Rome. The real Christians ran for the hills.
Catholic Cardinal Newman admits in his book that; the "temples,
incense, oil lamps, votive offerings, holy water, Holidays, and
seasons of devotion, processions, blessings of the fields,
sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure (of priests, munks and nuns),
images, and statues... are all of PAGAN ORIGIN." The Development of
the Christian Religion Cardinal Newman p.359
There is a catholic cardinal admitting to much paganism in the
catholic church.
For a detailed analysis of the large amount of pagan teachings that are mixed into Roman catholicism see the online book:
The Two Babylons, by Alexander Hislop
Read the online book, THE TWO BABYLONS, by Alexander Hislop at this website:
http://www.biblebelievers.com/babylon/index.htm
Example:
The pope's mitre is a fish head mitre taken from the priests of the false fish god Dagon, which was worshipped by the phillistines at the time of Samson.
It looks like the two jaws of a fish with an open mouth looking upward and was designed to do so.