Number Of His Name

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Let's get one thing straight. Paul said people would be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. That is what folks nowadays call the Rapture of the Church.

Paul preached it centuries before Darby, so Darby was only stating what Scripture proclaims... we will one day be 'caught up.'

Amen!
Maranatha!!

GE:
Let's get one thing straight: That is not what Paul said!
1) "We shall meet"
2) "The Lord in the air"

That means not:
1) We shall rise up / be raised up into the air.
"We", are the Subject of the Verb, "to meet"; not, of some verb that does not exist in the Text, but is dreamt up, 'Be (in the air)'.
2) "The Lord" is the One who 'is', "in the air" -- in which "air" (not, 'heaven') He is "descend(ing)" to the earth - which was His idea to do from the first -- not not to come to the earth only to leave it straight away!

Literally, there stands written, "We who are living and remaining" -- not, 'raptured away', but 'remaining'! That is, on this earth, dear friend!,

"We, shall be grabbed / thronged / brought together": By the power of His Coming: "in clouds" -- of dust one must assume of all the saints being gathered together on this earth and from all the graves in the earth that are opened and the dead are raised from. It shall be a work God shall do towards us; not us towards Him: We- those who are 'sleeping' then - shall be mightely "seized" as by the Almighty Right Hand of God from the dead; EVEN SO those who are 'quick' then - "shall be changed" upon the face of this earth of soil and clouds of dust! And so shall also this same earth be made new by the same Coming of the Lord and by the same Right Hand of God, even by His very Presence : Immanuel, God with us.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Compare how Adam (and Eve) were formed from the dust of the earth and lived not until God breathed life into his nostrils. Why would the redeemed need fresh air for if they need not even the sun on the New Earth and have received a glorified body? The resurrection just like that of Jesus shall be an earthly event, because it is God's eternal purpose with this earth: "God so loved the WORLD"!

 

[dan e.]

All these thoughts on the Anti Christ is nonsense! I tend to think John was referring to Trajan and Nero. Put enough work into it you can make anyone the anit christ.

I'm with you.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

GE:
Let's get one thing straight: That is not what Paul said!
1) "We shall meet"
2) "The Lord in the air"

That means not:
1) We shall rise up / be raised up into the air.
"We", are the Subject of the Verb, "to meet"; not, of some verb that does not exist in the Text, but is dreamt up, 'Be (in the air)'.
2) "The Lord" is the One who 'is', "in the air" -- in which "air" (not, 'heaven') He is "descend(ing)" to the earth - which was His idea to do from the first -- not not to come to the earth only to leave it straight away!

Literally, there stands written, "We who are living and remaining" -- not, 'raptured away', but 'remaining'! That is, on this earth, dear friend!,

"We, shall be grabbed / thronged / brought together": By the power of His Coming: "in clouds" -- of dust one must assume of all the saints being gathered together on this earth and from all the graves in the earth that are opened and the dead are raised from. It shall be a work God shall do towards us; not us towards Him: We- those who are 'sleeping' then - shall be mightely "seized" as by the Almighty Right Hand of God from the dead; EVEN SO those who are 'quick' then - "shall be changed" upon the face of this earth of soil and clouds of dust! And so shall also this same earth be made new by the same Coming of the Lord and by the same Right Hand of God, even by His very Presence : Immanuel, God with us.

I'll believe what the Lord said, "We who are alive and remain in Him shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

 

[Ed Edwards]

Let's get one thing straight. Paul said people would be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. That is what folks nowadays call the Rapture of the Church.

Paul preached it centuries before Darby, so Darby was only stating what Scripture proclaims... we will one day be 'caught up.'

Amen!
Maranatha!!

Amen, Brother StandingfirminChrist -- Preach it! :thumbs:

I already wrote my own comments on the 'no rapture' claim.

---------------------------------


1Th 4:16-18 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For the Lord himselfe shall descende from heauen with a shoute, and with the voyce of the Archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then shall we which liue and remaine, be caught vp with them also in the clouds, to meete the Lord in the ayre: and so shall we euer be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore, comfort your selues one another with these wordes.

Where is my comfort that you are
supposed to get me which is COMMANDed
to you in 1 Thess 4:18?

What then is the Bible talking about
when it says these things (items of
interest bolded & in all caps)?

1 Thess 4:17 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Then shall we which liue and remaine,
be CAUGHT VP with them also in the clouds,
to meete the Lord in the ayre:
and so shall we euer be with the Lord.

2 Thess 2:1-3 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the comming
of our Lord Iesus Christ, and
by OUR ASSEMBLING VNTO HIM,
2 That ye be not suddenly mooued from
your minde, nor troubled neither by spirit,
nor by worde, nor by letter, as it were from vs,
as though the day of Christ were at hand.
3 Let no man deceiue you by any meanes:
for that day shall not come, except there
come a DEPARTING FIRST, and that
that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne
of perdition,

Titus 2:13 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Looking for that BLESSED HOPE,
and appearing of that glorie of that mightie God,
and of our Sauiour Iesus Christ,

Mat 24:31 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
And he shall send his Angels with
a great sound of a trumpet, and
they shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT
from the foure windes, and from the one ende of the heauens vnto the other.

1Co 16:22 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
If any man loue not the Lord Iesus Christ,
let him be had in execration MARAN-ATHA.

1 Corinthians 16:22 (TNIV = Today's New
International Version):
If anyone does not love the Lord,
let that person be cursed! COME LORD!

Joh 14:1-3 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Let not your heart be troubled: ye beleeue in God,
beleeue also in me.
2 In my Fathers house are many dwelling places:
if it were not so, I would haue tolde you:
I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go to prepare a place
for you, I wil come againe,
and RECEIVE YOU VNTO MY SELFE,
that where I am, there may ye be also.

Ed redefines 'rapture2' with some Scripture
terms:

rapture2 n. -
1. the pretribulation event where Jesus
performs a resurrection1 followed
closely by a rapture1
2a CAUGHT VP;
2b OUR ASSEMBLING VNTO HIM,
-- and DEPARTING;
2c BLESSED HOPE;
2d GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT;
2e MARAN-ATHA;
2f COME LORD!;
2g RECEIVE YOU VNTO MY SELFE;
2h and HOPE THAT IS WITHIN YOU

Caveat: I reserve the right to add to this definition
as I find other supporting scriptures. These
were just the ones on the top of my mind
tonight.

Sorry, my HOPE is NOT even closely threatened
by sombody grabbing my word 'rapture'.

And I have fulfilled the COMMAND OF JESUS:

1 Peter 3:15-16 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
But sanctifie the Lord God in your hearts:
and be ready alwayes to giue an answere
to euery man that asketh you a reason of the
HOPE THAT IS WITHIN YOU,
with meekenesse and reuerence,

--------------------------------

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

EE:
"be CAUGHT VP with them also in the clouds,"

GE
Its winter and dusty; me and me doggie go for a walk. She likes to storm past me from behind that her ears make a slapping sound. The small dachsie runs up a cloud of dust, literally. She 'CATCHES UP' with me from behind. According to you, she shouldn't kick up a grain of dust, but get airborn! Silly!

Accross the face of the earth the dead of all time come up in clouds even of PEOPLE, in the day of the Lord's Return. John portrays it grandiosely as he sees the redeemed enter the Holy City, and the City is being encompassed by the devil and his armies. Everything the events of the Day of Judgment on and of this world. But you live in your dreams on another 'plane-t' far removed from reality!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

standingfirminchrist:
"I'll believe what the Lord said, "We who are alive and remain in Him shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.""

GE
I'll believe what the Lord said, "We who are alive and remain in Him shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." It is the "LORD, in the air; not US in the air. We shall meet Him - go to meet Him, like I or you go meet a visitor at the gate to bring him in into your home. The Lord COMES TO BE with us - He "descends"; He does not 'ascend with us' or us with Him. We "remain";we do not 'leave'. And we "catch up together with them", the dead who had been raised from their graves; we do not like Arabs on wonder-mats float up like helium balloons. Your ideas are not even funny; they are mocking. No redeemed will have both feet above this earth in the air for longer than a running-leap to meet the Lord when He comes.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

No one shall meet the Lord motorised! It will be us his creatures and redeemed and Him our Maker and Redeemer, Paradise Lost, regained!

 

[antiaging]

Yeah, you keep believing that. Get a credible source. Not Jack Chick. You've made up you mind unfortuantely. A case of don't confuse me with the facts please. Here are somethings from Christianity Today and Cornerstone Magazine Along with a personal letter about him which make good points. http://www.thebibleistheotherside.org/lettersp5.htm

People attack Rivera, the man. He said he was an undercover agent acting against protestant churches and colleges in South America. All countries try to cover the truth about their undercover agents when they are discovered. The vatican claims to be a country, with embassies, head of state and citizens scattered throughout the world in other countries. It is not strange to see any country, the vatican included trying to cover up the acitivities of their undercover agents. They all do it.
The things that Mr. Rivera said, are similar to what others have said. Edmond Paris, French catholic historian said the same things that Rivera told Jack Chick, about the vatican starting World wars 1 and 2, in the book THE SECRET HISTORY OF THE JESUITS. My dad was an army staff sargeant in World War 2, he told me the catholic church started world war 2. He was raised a catholic. He told me when the German prisoners found out that he was a catholic, they would tell him he was on their side. Those prisoners really believed they were fighting for the catholic church.

Read what the press of the Catholic, Spanish dictator, Franco,
published on the 3rd of May, 1945, the day of Hitler's death. It said,
"Adolf Hitler, son of the Catholic Church, died while defending
Christianity." It is therefore understandable that words cannot be
found to lament over his death, when so many were found to exalt his
life. It goes on to say, "Over his mortal remains stands his
victorious moral figure. With the palm of the martyr, God gives Hitler
the laurels of Victory." This funeral oration of Adolph Hitler was
voiced by the Holy See itself, under the cover of Franco's press. It
is a communique of the Vatican via Madrid.
Hitler himself stated, "I learned much from the Order of the Jesuits.
Until now, there has never been anything more grandiose, on the earth,
than the hierarchical organization of the Catholic church. I
transferred much of this organization into my own party."
Walter Schellenberg, former chief of Nazi counter-espionage made this
statement: "The S.S. organization had been constituted by Himmler
according to the principles of the Jesuit Order. Their regulations and
the Spiritual Exercises prescribed by Ignatius of Loyola were the
model Himmler tried to copy exactly. Himmler's title as supreme chief
of the S.S. was to be the equivalent of the Jesuits' 'General' and the
whole structure was a close imitation of the Catholic Church's
hierarchical order."
--The Secret History of the Jesuits, by catholic French historian Edmond
Paris.

And Himmler's uncle really was a jesuit priest and a member of the SS Gestapo that murdered people of the Jewish religion. And he really did die in his cell at Nuremburg. Go and research it on google if you want to. And what is a Jesuit priest doing belonging to the SS ??!!!!

You see, catholic agents in the protestant churches attack Rivera, the man. They don't attack what he said, because others say the same things. The information Rivera told to Jack Chick is accurate.

 

[Andre]

We shall meet Him - go to meet Him, like I or you go meet a visitor at the gate to bring him in into your home. The Lord COMES TO BE with us - He "descends"; He does not 'ascend with us' or us with Him. We "remain";we do not 'leave'.

Well GE, we agree on this issue if not on the nature of the atonement. Jesus is not coming to rescue us away from the world - He is coming to resurrect us in the world.

I understand how people can read the 1 Thess text and conclude that we will be "raptured". I will not make the case in this post but I am convinced of arguments that Paul is constructing a rather elaborate metaphor here - drawing on the Moses / Mount Sinai story and Daniel as well as other stuff.

I do not think that the scriptures teach that there will be a "rapture". Such an event would go against the sweeping picture of God rescuing his creation - including us, not "taking us out" of creation and leaving it behind.

 

[BobRyan]

Let's get one thing straight. Paul said people would be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. That is what folks nowadays call the Rapture of the Church.

Paul preached it centuries before Darby, so Darby was only stating what Scripture proclaims... we will one day be 'caught up.'

Amen!
Maranatha!!

All true. 1Thess 4 states it clearly.

But where many err is they miss the key Bible teaching that the Rapture is post trib and pre-mill as we SEE it in Matt 24 "AFTER the Tribulation of those days ... He will gather his elect" the same as we SEE it in 2Thess2 speaking to us about "His appearing" and "our being gathered" to him.



Bob

 

[BobRyan]

When I said catholic I meant Roman catholic.
All christians are catholic. Not all are Roman catholic.

Read Fox's book of martyrs online. Find it on Google. Detailed accounts of the Roman catholic persecution of protestant Christians; they murdered them by the thousands.
Or research the St. Bartholomew massacre on Google.
Roman catholics murdered thousands of protestants shortly after pretending to be their friends. It is all historically recorded.

...

Note: The laws from the council of Trent that the catholic church used to justify the murder of non Roman catholics in the inquisitions, are still in effect in the catholic church. During Vatican II council, in the 1960s they reafirmed the council of Trent, according to former Jesuit Alberto Rivera. They could start murdering people of other religions now and it would be legal according to the Council of Trent.

good post!

The "extermination" decree issued in Lateran IV is still considered infallible RC canon law.

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

You want some facts?

Martin Luther
(1483-1546) (Lutheran)
"We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist...personally I declare that I owe the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist." (Aug. 18, 1520)

John Calvin
(1509-1564) (Presbyterian)
"Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom we speak and whose language we adopt...I shall briefly show that (Paul's words in II Thess. 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy." Taken from "Institutes" by John Calvin.

Cotton Mather
(1663-1728) (Congregational Theologian)
"The oracles of God foretold the rising of an Antichrist in the Christian Church; and in the Pope of Rome, all the characteristics of that Antichrist are so marvelously answered that if any who read the Scriptures do not see it, there is a marvelous blindness upon them." Taken from "The Fall of Babylon" by Cotton Mather
John Knox
(1505-1572) (Scotch Presbyterian)
Knox wrote to abolish "that tyranny which the pope himself has for so many ages exercised over the church" and that the pope should be recognized as "the very antichrist, and son of perdition, of whom Paul speaks." Taken from "The Zurich Letters" pg. 199 by John Knox.

Thomas Cranmer
(1489-1556) (Anglican)
"Whereof it followeth Rome to be the seat of antichrist, and the pope to be very antichrist himself. I could prove the same by many other scriptures, old writers, and strong reasons." (Referring to prophecies in Revelation and Daniel.) Taken from "Works" by Cranmer, Vol. 1, pp. 6-7.

John Wesley
(1703-1791) (Methodist)
Speaking of the Papacy he said, "He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers...He it is...that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped...claiming the highest power, and highest honor...claiming the prerogatives which belong to God alone." Taken from "Antichrist and His Ten Kingdoms" by John Wesley, pg. 110.

Roger William
(1603-1683) (First Baptist Pastor in America)
He spoke of the Pope as "the pretended Vicar of Christ on earth, who sits as God over the Temple of God, exalting himself not only above all that is called God, but over the souls and consciences of all his vessals, yea over the Spirit of Christ, over the Holy Spirit, yea, and God himself...speaking against the God of heaven, thinking to changed times and laws: but he is the son of perdition (II Thess. 2)."
You can add to those names these men that thought the pope is an antichrist:
Wycliff, Tyndale, Sir Isaac Newton, Fox, Finney, Moody, Spurgeon.

"It is the bounden duty of every Christian to pray against Antichrist. And as to what Antichrist is, no sane man ought to raise a question. If it be not Popery in the Church of Rome, there is nothing in the world that can be called by that name. . . . Popery is contrary to Christ’s gospel and is the Antichrist and we ought to pray against it." ~Charles Haddon Spurgeon, 1873 England’s Prince of Preachers Quoted by Ireland’s Ian Paisley Protest of the Pope in Parliament

Pope's title vicar of Christ means antichrist by definition.
JESUS CHRIST HAS NO VlCAR. Vicar, from the Latin "vicarius" means "in the place of" e.g. vicarius sacrifice of Christ being His sacrifice in the place of the sinner. Papal claims such as infallibility, Head of the Church, Holy Father, all seek to put the Pope in the place of Christ, which place only the Living Christ can have. This false assumption of Rome is expressly put forward in the Papal title "Vicar of Jesus Christ".
The New Testament was written in Greek, and the Greek translation of " vicar of Christ" is "Anti (instead of)-christos", or in our English Bible, "Antichrist". The word "Antichrist" is not just a word of wild insult, but is a Bible warning of the false role assumed by the Popes of Rome as supposed vicars of Christ, (See 1 John 2:18 D.V.).
The Greek word for "Vice President" is "Anti-Proedros"; Because Anti, which means opposite, also means "replacement" or "instead", as in Vicar or Viceroy or Vicarious.

Anyone pretending to be a substitute for Jesus Christ on the Earth is by definition an antichrist. There is only one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. He does not have a substitute, though some pretend to be.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
The office of Pope does not come from the bible. Roman Pontiff comes from the old pagan Roman religion. All of the Roman emporers following Julius Caesar were chief Roman Pontiff.

The office of pope itself pretends to be a substitute for Jesus and therefore any pope is an antichrist.

The Bull Unam Sanctam... Issued by POPE BONIFACE VIII reads as follows: "The Roman Pontiff judges all men, but is judged by no one. We declare, assert, define and pronounce: to be subject to the Roman Pontiff is to every human creature necessary for salvation that which was spoken of Christ 'thou has subdued all things under his feet' may well seem verified in me... I have the authority of the King of Kings. I am all in all and above all, so that God himself and I, the vicar of God, have but one consistory, and I am able to do all that God can do." "Christ entrusted His office to the chief pontiff;... but all power in heaven and in earth has been given to Christ;... therefore the chief pontiff, who is His vicar, will have this power." Corpus Juris chap. 1 column 29, translated from a gloss on the words Porro Subesse Romano Pontiff

"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty" ...Pope Leo XIII "All the names which are attributed to Christ in Scripture, inplying His supremacy over the church, are also attributed to the Pope." Bellamin, "On the Authority of Councils," book 2, Chapter 17.

"For thou art the shepherd, thou art the physician, thou art the director, thou art the husbandman, finally thou art another God on earth." Labbe and Cossart's "History of the Councils." Vol. XIV, col. 109

The title "Lord God the Pope" can be found within a gloss of Extravagantes of Pope John XXII, title 14, chapter 4, Declaramus.

What great references -- thanks!

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

John wrote that there are already many anti-christ's in the world already.

Trajan and Nero were both anti-christ, but neither of them are the one who will sit in the temple showing himself to be God causing everyone to be identified by a mark on their right hand or forehead by his name or number..

SFIC - hits the ball out of the park! good one.

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

1. "Number of his name" is a phrase found only in Rev 13.
2. The term "antichrist" is not found in that chapter. But the application that people like Cotton Matther seems to be reasonable.

Finally -- let's start LOOKING at the "number of his name" as described by the GREEK text of the book of Revelation written during the time of the ROMAN Empire where the national langage of Rome is Latin.

V = 5
I = 1
C = 100
A = no value
R = no value
I = 1
U = 5
S = no value
---------------
112​

F = no value
I = 1
L = 50
I = 1
I = 1
--------------
53​

D = 500
E = no value
I = 1
-------------
501​

112 + 53+ 501 = 666​

​

Bob​

 

[Marcia]

Well GE, we agree on this issue if not on the nature of the atonement. Jesus is not coming to rescue us away from the world - He is coming to resurrect us in the world.

I understand how people can read the 1 Thess text and conclude that we will be "raptured". I will not make the case in this post but I am convinced of arguments that Paul is constructing a rather elaborate metaphor here - drawing on the Moses / Mount Sinai story and Daniel as well as other stuff.

I do not think that the scriptures teach that there will be a "rapture". Such an event would go against the sweeping picture of God rescuing his creation - including us, not "taking us out" of creation and leaving it behind.

But God doesn't rescue creation during the Tribulation - he lets the people that are there suffer it.

A parallel for the rapture could be the Flood -- God took Noah and his family out and rescued them as the Flood destroyed the rest of the earth.

 

[BobRyan]

True - at the flood Noah and crew were still on earth.

The rapture happens "AFTER the tribulation of those days ... THEN shall he gather his elect" Matt 24.

Bob

 

[Thinkingstuff]

1. "Number of his name" is a phrase found only in Rev 13.
2. The term "antichrist" is not found in that chapter. But the application that people like Cotton Matther seems to be reasonable.

Finally -- let's start LOOKING at the "number of his name" as described by the GREEK text of the book of Revelation written during the time of the ROMAN Empire where the national langage of Rome is Latin.

V = 5
I = 1
C = 100
A = no value
R = no value
I = 1
U = 5
S = no value
---------------
112​

F = no value
I = 1
L = 50
I = 1
I = 1
--------------
53​

D = 500
E = no value
I = 1
-------------
501​

112 + 53+ 501 = 666​

​

Bob​

The Apocalypse of John was writen in Greek. Not Latin. If you want to put numeric value to letters then you should use Greek not Latin. BTW I'm not in support of most of the posts here. I believe the book of Daniel came to completion in 70 AD with the destruction of the temple and the end of Judea. That the last week of the weeks spoken of in Daniel happened up to 70 AD. I veiw each day in the week as a period of a decade. I'm probably the only one here with that view. Jesus is the fulfillment. Christianity is his kindom on earth. Jesus will return again in judgement and there will be a resurection of the dead. Keep in mind there was also a resurection when Jesus died on the cross as well.

 

[targus]

Ellen = L+L=100,
Gould=U+L+D=555,
White=a double 'U' = 2 'V's +1 =11.
Total these three numbers, and we have, 100 + 555 + 11 = 666.

Ellen Gould White = 666

 

[Ed Edwards]

To bad Mrs. E.G.White didn't do all the deeds of the Antichrist - she just wrote a few books.