O.S.A.S. (Once. Saved. Always. Saved)

No, Dr. Joseph Dillow believes like Zane Hodges, that is, disobedient Christians, upon their death, spend 1,000 years in a “suburb” of heaven where “there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” while obedient Christians will spend the same 1,000 years (the Millennium) with Christ. They typically begin with Matt. 25:30 and then build upon that foundation their doctrine.

Matt. 25:30. "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Joey Faust believes that disobedient Christians, upon their death, spend 1,000 years (the Millennium) in hell where “there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Both of these belief systems are the consequence of the many warning passages in the Bible that warn of SEVERE punishment for disobedience on the part of Christians. These men, and many others, are all deeply entrenched in the OSAS doctrine, so from their point of view, eternal damnation for a Christian is impossible, but the warning passages can not be swept under the rug like John Calvin and his cohorts have done for hundreds of years, making a mockery of Jesus and his stern warnings. Hence their doctrine that the punishment is real, but that it lasts for only 1,000 years. There are also many variations of these OSAS teaching, all of which attempt to take literally the warnings of Christ and yet attempt to cling to the teaching of John Calvin that no Christian will spend eternity in hell no matter what. It is no wonder that the most Christian denominations believe the Calvin was very much mistaken on that point.

 

AMen, Brother David MIchael Harris -- Preach it! YOu
surely know nothing


Like i keep chanting: ( ranting maybe )

"OSAS = Once Saved, Always Saved" is what
ever is mean by this scripture:

Joh 3:16 (KJV1611 Edition):
For God so loued ye world, that he gaue his only begotten Sonne: that whosoeuer beleeueth in him, should not perish, but haue euerlasting life. </font>[/QUOTE]Perhaps when you comment on the verse regarding my statement then I will consider your rude words that I know nothing. Love is not rude brother. And as for your Bible text I am afraid I have difficulty trying to understand its obscure and archaic and obsolete text. Try a newer version and keep up with the Holy Spirit.

"That message must not be disguised in phrases that are no longer clear, or hidden under words that have changed or lost their meaning; it must be presented in language that is direct and plain and meaningful to people today".

Bruce M Metzger


God bless you Ed.

David

"Today is a beautiful day, watch someone go and spoil it"

 

John 10:27. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

We need to begin with verse 27, because vv. 28 & 29 are dependent upon it.

John 10:27 Ta probata ta ema tes fones mou akouousin, kago ginosko auta kai akolouthousin moi.

John 10:27 τα προβατα τα εμα της φωνης μου ακουουσιν ακουει καγω γινωσκω αυτα και ακολουθουσιν μοι

In John 10:27 we are told the sheep who belong to Jesus hear (ακουουσιν) his voice.

(Continued)

 

ακουουσιν is a verb in the indicative mood, present tense, and active voice. The Greek present tense, in the indicative mood, connotes continuous action. In other words, those sheep who are continuously hearing the voice of Jesus are His sheep, and they follow (ακολουθουσιν) Him. ακολουθουσιν is, of course, also a verb in the indicative mood, present tense, and active voice, connoting continuous action. It is to those sheep, those who are continuously hearing the voice of Jesus and continuously following Him to whom Jesus gives eternal life. What become of those sheep who hear his voice and begin to follow Him, but subsequently shut Him out and cease to follow him. These verses do not explicitly answer that question, but they certainly hint at it, and other verses in the Bible do explicitly answer that question.

Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Heb. 10:26. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27. but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30. For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (NASB, 1995)

But of course John Calvin argued that the teaching of the Apostolic Fathers and the teaching of the entire Church was wrong, and that everyone had incorrectly interpreted these verses in Hebrews for 1500 years. Do you really believe that God was such a poor writer that no one could understand Him until John Calvin came onto the scene? Personally, I don’t believe that at all. And if the Apostolic Fathers and the entire Church were wrong about the Biblical teaching of salvation for 1500 years, what reason do we have to believe that anyone really understands anything that the Bible says. The obvious truth is that God wrote the Bible so that men could understand it, and they did understand it for the most part, put John Calvin came onto the scene and confused literally millions of believers, Most fortunately, however, the large majority of Christians were not confused and have continued teaching the truth found in the Bible. OSAS is clearly a man-made doctrine that was invented in the 16th century at a time when no one had so much as Strong’s concordance to help them in their study of the Bible. Today, however, there is absolutely no excuse for anyone to believe a doctrine that is so obviously a doctrine of men rather than God and the Bible. Some people, however, choose to believe what makes them feel warm and fuzzy inside rather that Biblical truths that demand obedience to Christ and His teachings.

 

I like some of what you say, but not convinced, my convictions are not based on Calvin but my own personal experience of Gods grace and subsequent knowledge imparted by the Spirit and reading of the Bible. God is Soveriegn and when He calls a person to glory, nothing can stop that, otherwise He is not Soveriegn and not God. Also why would angels rejoice only to realise that they were misled.

I agree in having a go at Calvin, but I still think TULIP is correct.

David

 

The subsequent knowledge imparted to me by the Spirit was the same knowledge that the Holy Spirit imparted to the Apostolic Church Fathers whom it pleased God to use to establish the New Testament Canon and to formalize the doctrine of the Trinity . Why would the Holy Spirit impart to you a different “truth?” Perhaps the spirit that imparted it to you was a spirit without a capital “S.”

Apostasy is not about man stopping God; it is about man stopping to be obedient to Christ. God is not only sovereign, He is also holy, and He has no part with sin. And if the Bible really does indeed teach OSAS, why didn’t anyone notice that little detail for 1500 years? The obvious answer is that it took 1500 years for Christians to get so confused about the doctrine of salvation that they began to mistakenly believe that the Bible teaches OSAS. And of course, the large majority of Christians have never succumbed to such confusion .

 

Thoses who commit apostasy as you say are obviously not children of God.

God disciplines His children. The only verse that warrantsan explanation of any sort as far as I can see is 6:4 and I believe that is not a child of God. I dont know why you have to be so rude and on the offense, I am no threat to you.

I have said in previous posts my only concern is the parable of Jesus of the unfaithful servant.

I have to go out, back later.

David

 

Hi brother,

The parable of the sower in Luke 8:5-18 is the same as the parable of the sower in Matthew 13:3-23. This sower's seed is the word of God... "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God "(Luke 8:11) Matthew 13:19 says " word of the kingdom ".

Goimg into another parable (Matt 13:24) ,the parable of the wheat and tares, it states that this sower's seed is the children of the Kingdom.... " the good seed are the children of the kingdom "(Matt 13:38)

If we should relate the two progressively and I think we should, the parable of the wheat and tares would show us that in the parable of the four soils it is only the good ground that produces fruit and would therefore be declared the "good seed" who are the true and righteous "children of the kingdom".

Read it through from Matthew 13:3 to 43. Two different parables yet they are together explaining the kingdom of heaven. Taken as a whole it would only be the good ground who would be the children of the kingdom (born again, saved).

God Bless!

 

Allow me to ask a few questions to those who believe that one can have salvation and then loose it

How do you loose your salvation?

What sin do I have to commit that would cause me to loose my salvation?

And if there is a sin that I can commit to cause me to loose it----wasn't that sin already atoned for at the cross through the price that Jesus paid?? I suppose that Jesus can't atone for that particular sin, can He??

Is the sin that I commit that causes me to loose my salvation----stronger than grace that saved me??

At point salvation---we recieve---literally---the nature of God---is this true??

If it is true---then when we commit that sin that would cause us to loose our salvation---that new nature literally would have to die---would it not?? How can the nature of God die??? His nature is as alive as He is---His nature is literally Himself inside of us, isn't it??? God inside of us would have to die in order for us to lose our salvation---can God die????

At point salvation---I inherit the nature of God---pictured in the Apostle Peter's epistles and elsewhere as the nature of a sheep---I went from being a dog and a hog to being a sheep---I can never stop being a sheep once I am a sheep, can I?? When I got saved---God "transformed" me---took me from the Canine nature to the Bovidine(sheep) nature! To loose my salvation----God would have to "untransform" me---back to the Canine family---would He not?? Show me once verse in the Bible where God "untransforms" anybody---once they are transformed!!

God sees me as a sheep! In John's Gospel---Jesus says in chapter 10---"I know My sheep!"-------now, if I could loose my salvation---that would mean that Jesus no longer knows me, is that right?? But as long as I was saved---He knew me! Right??

What happens, then---if I can lose my salvation---then moments later I die---and I hear the fateful words that will say

"Depart from Me, I never knew you!"

But wait a minute!!! At one point I was saved---as long as I am saved---Jesus knew me---but now He doesn't!!

That would mean that Jesus is a liar, would it not??? Because at one point in my life I use to be saved---and He knew me then!!!! But now He says He NEVER knew me---which would make God a liar----Can God lie????

I know there are verses in the Bible that spell out---crystal clear---the meaning of apostate---coming face to face with the blessed truth of salvation---and turning away from it---having never repented of sins and receiving the saving grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I know there is scripture that points out crystal clear--the meaning of Backsliding---a believer can reach a point in his life where he is so out of tune with God that its pitiful---and the backslider is no good for nothing---and briars and thorns grow in the place where his fruit ought to be seen.

But show me one verse in the Bible where somebody got saved---the got lost---then got saved again--then lost----Jesus knew me---now He doesn't---but wait---now He knows me---whoops---He doesn't know me now!!

If a person who is genuineally saved---he has repented of his sins and has received Jesus by faith into his life as Lord and Savior---and has at that moment of salvation received the new nature of God(which is what repentance and receiveing brings about) can commit a sin---that would cause that person to lose his salvation---then that person is in jeapordy all the wakeing and sleeping days of his life---as insecure as a house of cards in a driving Hurricane!!!

Brother David

[ April 22, 2005, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: blackbird ]

 

That doesn't address my question. If the wheat is the sons of God, and the tares are the sons of the devil, who are the wheat that are choked by the tares?

 

Allow me to point out that your questions have been answered previously in this thread. If you have specific questions or comments about what appears in the previous posts, let's talk about it.

 

Allow me to point out that your questions have been answered previously in this thread. If you have specific questions or comments about what appears in the previous posts, let's talk about it. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm not going to weed through 12 pages looking for what it is I already know about security of salvation.

But being as to how you already must know how my questions were answered----why not give us a quick surmise!

Bro. David

 

Actually, the precise opposite is true. Only those who have been in the state of grace can fall from grace.

Yes, He does, but He never, absolutely never, takes away from anyone the right to choose whom they will obey. Before you were saved, you had the freedom that God gave you to choose to follow Him or anyone else. Do you mean to suggest that when you got saved, God took that freedom away from you?

Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (NASB, 1995)

How could anyone other that a born-again Christian “have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come?” Do you find ANY of these attributes being attributed to unsaved people ANYWHERE is the Bible? I don’t, but I DO find them ALL being attributed to saved people in the Bible.

What have I posted that was rude? I am simply defending the same Biblical truths that the Apostolic Fathers defended and the same Biblical truths that the large majority of Christians believe today.

No, you are no threat to me, but the doctrine of OSAS is of substantial threat to the body of Christ.

 

So why ask questions if you already have decided on the answers?

Salvation is a new covenant in his blood. Covenants that are established by two parties can be broken (e.g. marriage). Christ is faithful, and will not break his end of the covenant.

 

3. And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, "Behold, the sower went out to sow;
4. and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up.
5. "Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil.
6. "But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7. "Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out.
8. "And others fell on the good soil and *yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.
9. "He who has ears, let him hear."
10. And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"
11. Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
12. "For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.
13. "Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
14. "In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, 'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
15. FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'
16. "But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear.
17. "For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
18. "Hear then the parable of the sower.
19. "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.
20. "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
21. yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
22. "And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
23. "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."

• The seed which fell beside the road did not germinate but were eaten by the birds.

• The seed that fell on the rocky places did germinate, but the new plants soon perished because “they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil. But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.” These plants that “withered away” have historically been interpreted as babes in Christ who, because of the lack of spiritual nourishment, died a spiritual death. Jesus Himself said of these people that they “RECEIVED the word of the kingdom with joy, but “when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.”

• The seed that was sown among the thorns also germinated, but the “worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.” These plants that “became unfruitful” have historically been interpreted as more mature Christians who, because of “worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth,” produced no spiritual fruit.

• The seed that was sown on the good soil also germinated and prospered spiritually.

All of the seed that was sown, except for the seed that fell beside the road, germinated. In the New Testament, the germination of seeds typifies the new birth unto salvation. The only reason one would have to believe that we have here an exception to that interpretation is if one approaches this parable with the preconceived notion that Christians cannot lose their salvation, an early 16th century doctrine of men.

 

I see that you are a pastor of a Baptist church. I assume, therefore, that you have graduated from a good Baptist seminary and that you have therefore completed a number of courses in soteriology and that you have participated in a number of seminars in which the pro and cons of your views on soteriology were presented in great detail. Why, then are you asking that your questions, that have already been answered in this thread, and in very great detail in other threads on this message board, be answered again here.

If, perchance, you do not have a good seminary education, and you are honestly asking questions in order to learn the truth of this matter, I can recommend a number of works written by very fine scholars who will answer all of your questions in even greater detail than they have been answered on this message board.

Or, if there is one particular question that you wish to explore with us, I would be more than happy to participate in that exploration. In the meantime, you might wish to explain to us why the doctrine of salvation is presented to us in such an encrypted form in the Bible that no one was able to understand it until John Calvin came along.

 

Luke 8:7,14 says nothing about "wheat and tares". You are confusing it with another parable. Luke 8:5-18 is addressing the "word of God" being choked out (vs 11). The parable about the wheat and tares is addressing the "children of the kingdom" verses the "children of the devil" (Matthew 13:38).

God Bless!

 

What are the resources that tell you that a large majority of Christians do not believe in eternal security?

Are you catholic? I ask because it seems that you believe that if something has been taught for the first 1500 years or so then it must be fact, like catholicism.

God Bless!

 

Come on, we were making really good progress.

No, I am not confused.

From whom? By whom?

 

Then I guess I am confused. Post the scripture which states "wheat and tares". I don't see it in Luke 8:5-13.

God Bless!