O.S.A.S. (Once. Saved. Always. Saved)

Ed Edwards wrote,

Ed, you can say this as many time as you want to, but saying it over and over again will not make it true.

Come on, it is easy. Over 15% of the New Testament tells Christians how they should behave as Christians, and many passages in the New Testament tell Christians that if they do not behave themselves as Christians, but depart from the teachings of Christ, they will be damned to hell.

I know of only one plan of salvation that results in one truly being saved, and that plan includes continuous faith in, and continuous obedience to, Christ.

 

Craigbythesea is quoted here --- "I know of only one plan of salvation that results in one truly being saved, and that plan includes continuous faith in, and continuous obedience to, Christ."

[/QB][/QUOTE]

No, Craig---this is where I am afraid you are wrong---it is by the power of God that we are saved---and it is by the power of God that we are kept saved.

The power of God that saves us---is given us by grace through faith----as in John 1:12 which says, "But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name."----I am powerless to save myself!!

But I am also powerless to keep myself saved!! Therefore, my total reliance is upon Him and Him only to save me---but my total reliance is also upon Him and Him alone to keep me saved----friend, listen!!! Let me ask you a question

Would you trust the best 15 minutes of your life to save you???

I thought not!!

So, would you trust those same best 15 to keep you saved?? I don't trust myself---now, as good as you say you are---I suppose me and you are in different boats----but I place my faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ to save me and to KEEP me saved.

Notice over in 1Peter 1:3-5---read what it says, Craig!!!

I'm gonna post that verse on this screen so that our viewers will be able to see that MY salvation is in its truest eternal state when it is resting completely upon the finished work of Jesus Christ upon the cross of Calvary and upon the continued work of the Lord Jesus Christ at the right hand of the Father in Heaven---and that MY salvation is not resting upon my obedience to Him but upon His obedience to His Father in Heaven.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to His abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. To an inheritance incorruptable, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."(bold emphasis is mine)

So obey I must---because thats what saved people do!!! When I fail to obey----I have an Advocate with the Father---the Lord Jesus Christ---I go to Him confessing that sin of disobedience---and just as He is faithful to save me and keep me saved---He is faithful to forgive me and cleanse me from all unrighteousness!!

Bro. David

[ April 23, 2005, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: blackbird ]

 

Craqigbythesea: " ... many passages in the New Testament tell Christians
that if they do not behave themselves as Christians, but depart
from the teachings of Christ, they will be damned to hell.

Actually these passage tell Christians how to behave themselves
now that they adhere to the teaching of Christ and are no longer
damned to hell. The saved will do what they are supposed to do.
The still damned will continue to be damned to Hell.

 

See, Craig---the whole "ball of wax" is this---if a person is relying upon THEIR obedience to KEEP them saved----they are in a real sense--being disobedient because their faith and trust is not placed in total relience of the Lord Jesus Christ---and their salvation STAYS in jeapordy every wakeing and sleeping moment of their lives!!!

 

Ed Edwards,

Does it have to be God's fault that you change your mind? If God does not force you to have faith in him, do you think for one minute that he will force you the keep faith in him? Faith is an entirely voluntary thing that humans do!

 

Does it have to be God's fault that you change your mind? If God does not force you to have faith in him, do you think for one minute that he will force you the keep faith in him? Faith is an entirely voluntary thing that humans do! </font>[/QUOTE]Wes---stay with Ed Edwards and me on this one!!! Folks say---"Oh, but we have a choice---we can choose to leave!" And some do leave!!! But let the Bible speak as to who the "leavers" really are!!! The leavers are the ones who have never arrived in the first place!!

According to 2 Peter 2:20-22----they leave because its what the old nature calls them to do!! You can take a dog---over to the kennel---groom him up real good---fluff his hair---brush his teeth---perfume him---bring him home---turn him loose in the yard and he'll go lick that mess he made when he vomitted earlier that morning---why??? Because thats his nature!!

They leave---because there has never been a new nature given through a born again experience!!

Then the Apostle John is careful to offer an explaination as to their sudden dissappearance from among the brethern

"Where's Tom?? Why ain't he here?? Why did he quit?? Why did he leave???"

Then John tells his church----"Its because he ain't never been one of us!!"

1 John 2:19, "They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

They leave---because there has never been a new nature given---because if there was really a true new nature given---they would have stayed!!

So you see---they leave---they return to their old ways that they never gave up!!

 

blackbird, are you willing to comment on the servant (spoken to Peter and the disciples) of the king in the last half of Matt 18, who had his debts (sins) totally forgiven by his lord (the Father), yet later had that forgiveness revoked?

 

Wes, Outwest: "Does it have to be God's fault that you change your mind?"

Bad question. Why would God let His child change their mind to
their eternal damnation? What kind of Father is that? Simple:
God won't let His children mess up to their damnations. BTW,
He does need a bit of cooperation from you.

I know my Kidz both messed up so much at time that
I took one outside the church and massaged her sitter.
The boy i took home once. God is, of course, a better Father
than i am. Would God take one of His erring children home
before their time?

Wes, Outwest: "Faith is an entirely voluntary thing that humans do!"

I respectfully disagree. Perhaps you are right when
a person is first saved. But after the initial being saved
your will becomes that of God. You will NOT do that which would
get you unsaved.

 

Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heauenly Father doe also vnto you,
if yee from your hearts forgiue not euery one his brother their trespasses.

If you have really been saved, you will forgive the sins of
your brother/sister. If you don't forgive the sins of your
brother/sister you might check to see if you REALLY got saved.

 

This passage was spoken as a warning to Peter and the disciples: "So likewise shall my heauenly Father doe also vnto you (Peter and the disciples)". How could the servant in the parable be totally forgiven of his debts (sins) and not be saved?

 

I don't understand why you even care to know. You already declared your position that sin does not break the covenant. The man sined (unforgiving). Do you think sin breaks the covenant or not?

God Bless!

 

Back to Matt 18. Then is it just a single sin of "unforgiveness" on our part which breaks the covenant, like the wicked servant, or is it any other single sin as well?

God Bless!

 

Maybe. Maybe I have to rethink what exactly keeps the covenant intact.

Anyway, how could the servant in the parable be totally forgiven of his debts (sins) by his lord (the Father) and not be saved?

 

natters: "How could the servant in the parable be totally forgiven of his debts (sins) and not be saved? "

As with most questions about most parables, it is easy
to find a question with no answer.

Please don't base your doctrine on parables.
Parables usually have one and only one truth in them.

The subject scripture has the truth:
If you have really been saved, you will forgive the sins of
your brother/sister.

 

Sorry Ed, but that's a cop-out answer if I ever heard one. I do not believe Jesus would use a lie, something opposite of the truth, in his parables regardless of the main point of the parable.

 

Natters: "I do not believe Jesus would use a lie, something opposite
of the truth, in his parables regardless of the main point of the parable."

Amen. So Jesus will never say anything that contradicts His
OSAS Doctrine. Such a contradiction is in the mind of the
one asking the "no answer" questions.

 

Brother natters,

Maybe it is the narrowness of the English which is causing the misconception. There are two Greek words that are translated as "forgave". Each are quite different if you look them up.

" charizomai " is the word used for the kind of forgiveness like Christ gave through the cross. It is defined as..."grant as a favor, i.e. gratuitously, in kindness, pardon or rescue-deliver, (frankly) forgive, (freely) give, grant".

" aphiemi " is the word used in the parable in question. It is actually a combination of words and is not defined in any way like the above. It says... "from 575 ( apo ) and hiemi (to send; an intens. form of eimi , to go); to send forth , in various applications (as follow)- cry, forgive, forsake, lay aside, leave, let(alone, be, go, have), omit, put(send) away, remit, suffer, yeild up".

I don't think it would be right to declare this servant "saved" as in "charizomai". Look it up for yourself, but I wouldn't put as much into the parable as you have. I believe Ed got it right rather than "copping out".

Maybe in this case, the English is not flat out wrong, but needs a bit of help from the Greek. Just something to consider.

God Bless!

 

The servant in the parable is forgiven of his debts (sins) by his lord (the Father). Nothing mysterious or "no answer" about it. Ther is no contradiction in my mind at all. It is simple. Why can you not simply accept this scripture?

 

You have it wrong. I have looked it up. The word in the parable is the same word that used in:

- the Lord's Prayer (Luke 11:4, etc.)
- when the Lord forgave the sins of the man with palsy (Mark 2:5-10, where the Pharisees accused him of blasphemy, for only God can forgive sin)
- the verse that talks of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which sins are forgiveable and which are not (Matt 12:31-32)
- the passage where the woman washed Jesus' feet and He forgave her sins and said she was saved (Luke 7:44-50)
- many other similar passages

In fact, the only time your "charizomai" is used in the forgiveness sense in the Gospels, is when two debtors are forgiven by the creditor (Luke 7:42-43).

So again: How could the servant in the parable be totally forgiven of his debts (sins) by his lord (the Father) and not be saved?

 

??? Who in this thread do you think is denying these things? Most certainly I am not. I wrote, “I know of only one plan of salvation that results in one truly being saved, and that plan includes continuous faith in, and continuous obedience to, Christ.” The grace to continuously believe and to continuously obey comes exclusively from God, and grace is the dynamic (the power) of God by which we are saved and enabled to remain saved.

However, in spite of that grace, many Christians choose to sin at one time or another in one way or another rather than always obey Christ and the leading of the Holy Spirit. And this is absolute proof that the grace of God (the power of God) can be thwarted, and the Bible expressly tells us that the grace of God can be thwarted to the point where an individual falls from grace and suffers eternal damnation.

Why do I get the impression that you have never studied soteriology? Certainly if you had, you would know that those who teach conditional security agree that Christians are “kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." This keeping power is the grace of God that saves us and keeps us saved. However, as I have already said, and as you very well know from personal experience and the observation of others, Christians are able to resist that grace and willfully sin, and the wages of sin is death. God is very loving, very compassionate, and very forgiving, but He does not hogtie us and we have the option of resisting the grace of God to what ever extent we may choose, including falling from grace.

The doctrine of OSAS is an invention of sinful men who resisted the grace of God and taught error rather than truth. Except for the heresy of universalism, which a few heretics taught, conditional security was the view of the entire church for 1500 years. Do you really believe that the Bible was so poorly written that NNE was able to understand the doctrine of salvation for 1500 years? And if the Bible was written that poorly, do you believe that there is even the slightest chance that it is the inspired Word of God?

Fact #1 The Bible was written so very clearly that, despite the fact that it was penned over a period of hundreds of years by many different people representing a very wide range of backgrounds, it was universally understood by all believers for 1500 years to teach conditional security.

Fact #2 That the Bible was universally understood by all believers for 1500 years to teach conditional security is proof that it is the inspired Word of God.