O.S.A.S. (Once. Saved. Always. Saved)

Ed, if ANYTHING that you wrote in this post was correct, we would not be having this discussion. The truth is that all too many Christians do NOT do what they are supposed to do, and we are discussing what God does about it. The Bible tells that, in the most severe cases, God damns them to hell. Certain members of the message board, however, are telling us that God, even though He is holy and sovereign and all powerful, does not have the option to damn even the most wayward Christian to hell where he belongs. Can you imagine spending eternity in heaven with a bunch of wayward sinners who turned their backs on Christ and are in heaven only because God forced them to be there against their will? What kind of “heaven” would that be?

 

Once saved, always saved....hmmm....I guess in reality one is never "saved" unless he is "saved", i.e., saved from the second death. If one is saved from the second death, then he's saved from the second death; likewise, if he's not, then he's not. If one can go from being saved from the second death to not being saved from the second death to again being saved from the second death, etc., etc., etc., it seems to me to defy the most fundamental meaning embedded in the word "saved". Otherwise, the terms are wrong and one is not truly "saved" until he gets to heaven and gets glorified. We shouldn't use the word "saved" unless it has the real meaning of being saved from the second death.

All this to escape the logical paradox of the possibility of one actually being saved and not being saved at the same time.

Yours, Bluefalcon

 

This is old, old argument from calvinists and baptists, they saying, "a person is falling away, because person is not saved in the FIRST PLACE".

That is not true.

Heb. 6:4-6 telling us very clear, a person already tasted of salvation, did believed the gospel, did accepted Christ, did received the Holy Spirit, but, then later a person falling away, then NO LONGER that person remain is saved.

Heb. 6:4-6 does not saying or suggest that we are NO way to repent again of salvation when once after we falling away. Heb. 6:4-6 explains very clear, when a Christian fall away, then NO LONGER that a Christian is remain saved. Understand?

Luke 15:11-32 tell us very clear when a Christian turn away, become lost again, then have to repent to became saved again.

Bible teaches us, that there is not too late for a Christian have a chance to repent to get right with the Lord again WHILE still alive before death. BUT, when if a Christian remain sinning all the way throughout lifetime till death, then it would be too late for a Christian to have another chance to repent once after died.

I do not believe when a Christian once commit a sin, then lost salvation immediately. I believe a Christian start to continiung sinning long as through life then remain lost, that is apostasy.

Of course, we all do sinned everyday, that does not mean we are turn away from the Lord such as 'apostasy'. Cannot expect that a Christian must be sinless life. We all have flesh, we can easily fall in sin daily. That why 1 John 1:9 commands us, that we ought to confess our sins to Christ to forgive us our sins 24 hours. OR... if we continue sinning daily without confess to Christ, then obivously consider apostasy, and lost, period. Again, of course, we do sinned everyday, that does not mean we are lost again, when we sinned, we must immediate confess to Christ to forgive us our sins all the time, that is all right, 'well with my soul'. Don't worry about sins, long as you keep on confess your sins to Christ, He is always faithful forgive your sins all times 24 hours, you are fine, you are still in Christ's hand LONG as you continue confess your sins to Christ everyday. OR... if you stopped confess to Christ, and continue sinning longer, then you might be loose out of Christ's hand, as you are apostasy from the Lord as backslidder, become lost again according Luke 15:11-32.

I hope that you understand what I believe about salvation according to the Bible.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

The question has been begged, so I'll ask it. How much time must go by before a regenerate person with unconfessed sin becomes unregenerate? One hour, one day, one week, one month, one year?

BTW, just because Paul mentions that it is impossible for a saved person who has fallen away to repent again does not necessarily mean that such had happened in the past, or that it does happen in the present, only that such would be the state if it were to happen. To tell someone there would be certain death if he were to drink a bottle of poison would encourage a person not to drink the bottle of poison, and Paul's argument is to warn people not to fall away. If some don't have evidence of Christianity, chances are they were never saved, and Paul is warning them too, because those without fruit are thrown in the fire and burn in hell, because they are false Christians, and such I'm afraid abound in the world today.

Yours, Bluefalcon

 

I have what wrong? I simply gave you the word used and the Strong's definition verses another word used when refering to the blood of Christ's forgiveness. Maybe Strong's is wrong but I just repeated what I read from it.

The examples you give are all pre cross. So how are the people "saved" (a new testament covenant)without the blood of Christ? We are discussing whether or not the man was "saved". "Saved" as understood from the NT involves the blood of Christ and involves "charizomai".

"....even as Christ charizomai you, so also do ye"(Col 3:13).

God Bless!

 

You won't get an answer from the insecurity crowd. That will be a "don't know, God will deal with that". They can preach it but can't teach it!

God Bless!

 

I did not give an exhaustive list. There are similar post-cross verses as well.

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness ("aphesis") of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive ("aphesis") us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

etc., etc., etc., etc.

So, back to the still-burning question: how could the servant in the parable be totally forgiven of his debts (sins) by his lord (the Father) and not be saved?

You won't get an answer from the insecurity crowd. That will be a "don't know, God will deal with that". They can preach it but can't teach it!
</font>[/QUOTE]Every situtation will be different, and have aspects that others outside the situation are unaware of. There is no "one size fits all" answer to that question when it comes to the many facets and complexities of the human heart, mind and soul. We are told in scripture it can happen, but not the intricate details of how God will make his decisions in every circumstance.

 

Oh boy

"aphesis" is not the word used in the parable. It is "aphiemi". Apparantly different words have different applications. "Aphiemi" does not carry the weight of the blood of Christ forgiveness. So we can't determine that the man was "saved" which is the new covenant invovling the blood of Christ.

It is burning in you, but I have studied this scripture and applied other scripture in order to avoid contradiction and even went to the Greek for further understanding and it is apparant to me that the man was not ever "saved". His sin was laid aside just as all sin had been throughout the old testament until the blood of Christ and faith in that blood would wipe it away forever.

You are ignoring the fact that there is quite a difference between "aphiemi" and the other two "aphesis" and "charizomai". But choose to do as you please.

God Bless!

 

There you have it! This is basically the true answer from the insecurity camp. What natters just said above tells us what? That you cannot know for certain if you will be saved in the end or not. It will have to be up to God if your faith outwieghs your sin.

They will tell you that you can know for sure if you are saved, but then tell you that you cannot know for sure if your sin will keep you out! What a sad religion

God Bless!

 

Oh boy is right. aphesis is derived from ahiemi, and carries the same basic meaning. The two words are used interchangeably between the gospels (compare Mark 3:29 with Matt 12:31-32 and Luke 12:10).

OK, you want some "ahiemi-only", post-crucifixion, weight-of-blood-of-Christ-forgiveness verses (and will THAT convince you, even when I give you exactly what you want? I doubt it.)???

Acts 8:22, Rom 4:7, James 5:15, 1 John 1:9 (which I just gave in my last post but you ignored), and 1 John 2:12.

Baloney. It was spoken and applied to Peter. The servant in the parable had all his debts/sins *forgiven* (see Acts 8:22, Rom 4:7, James 5:15, 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:12). The parable does NOT say, nor imply, they were temporarily "laid aside".

I am ignoring nothing. I am simply disagreeing (and providing evidence) that the difference is not anywhere near as large as you are wanting it to be.

 

Then why am I so happy and secure?

A person can be extremely happy and extremely secure in their marriage, but still acknowledge that divorce happens.

 

One thing always pops out at me in these discussions. The OSAS camp will always give scripture and when asked will also give real life application of that scripture. This combines truth with reality.

The insecurity camp will always give scripture as well, but when it comes to applying it to life, they can't. They don't know. "But the scripture says so"!

If the scripture cannot be applied to real life scenarios, then what good is it? God gave us the scriptures for life application and not for bully clubs!

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteouness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works"(2 Tim 3:16)

Natters demands an answer for the parable, yet cannot give a life application of it himself. Ed gave a life application of it. I gave a life application of it. But where is the insecurity camps life application of it? They "don't know" or they "know" it cannot be applied to a Believer without contradicting about the entire new testament! So the "cop out" so to speak is "I don't know, but scripture says". The problem is evident, you don't know what the scripture means, else you could answer the life application questions asked of it.

God Bless!

 

I'm perfectly able to give a "real life application", but I simply choose not to - because I am VERY tired of your philosophizing and rationalizing and hypothesizing - rabbit trails that just get everyone confused and frustrated. I simply want to talk straight scripture. You said you could/would do this. So do it.

 

Well that is not the way I read them, but each of us has the right to see it differently I suppose.

I didn't ask for any and besides, it has nothing to do with the points I made.

No thank you! I just had some turkey.

All I did was point out that "forgiveness" apparantly has multiple meanings according to the Greek. It appears that "ahiemi" does not carry the weight of the cross.

I can only respectfully disagree.

God Bless!

 

I would suggest it is because truth triumps over falsehoods. The truth is in you and you don't believe for a moment that you will ever become lost again, do you? Be honest! This is in your heart, yet in your mind you cannot harmonize the scriptures with what your heart is telling you. It is possible to if you seek God and allow Him to teach you how they should really be applied to the Christian life.

God Bless!

 

Read the entire parable, including the question that prompted it and the explanation at the end. Tell me who it's for, and what it means.

 

I always find it totally amazing when people tell me what I believe and what is in my heart and mind.

 

Natters, brother in Christ, examine yourself. Maybe what is so frustrating is that the insecurity position is very difficult to apply to the life of a true Believer. Your heart witnesses to you daily that Jesus is Lord. You cannot escape it.

I am at peace with the scriptures, even those ones that warn us to perservere! I know what they teach. I know that I am saved by grace and there is nothing I could or would do to reject that. That would be kinda silly wouldn't it?

Some say you cannot be plucked out of His hand but you can jump or fall!

Isn't that really promoting laziness? As long as I sit there in His hand and do nothing there is no way I can lose. Now if I stir around in the world I might get deceived and led astray, so I will just sit here in His hand and do nothing, that way I won't possibly fall out.

Get into His hand and do nothing, that way you have no chance of falling away.

But wait, you must be obedient or else you will be "let go". If that is the case then It is I who holds my salvation and not the Lord.

When you come to the realization that your salvation is all Jesus and none natters, then you will not only be free, but will also feel that freedom indeed!

You see it is not like a human marriage covenant as you believe. When you say "I do" to Jesus Christ the covenant is secured by God and not man. You cannot break it and if you would be honest to your heart you would never want to.

God Bless!

 

It is for all who ever hear it or read it. What it means is if you have been forgiven then you should forgive as well.

Do you want me to say that not forgiving turns the saved into the unsaved? Do you believe this is what it teaches? If it does then it is at the moment the sin is committed. If a Christian holds a grudge for more than the time it takes to think it, then they have forfieted their salvation. Then according to the insecurity camp's position on Hebrews 6, They would now be lost forever for it is impossible to restore them again.

So, have you ever held a grudge for any length of time on someone? I have, not long but long enough according to this parable. It doesn't say God gave him any second chances. He just sent him away. So I guess I am wasting my time serving the Lord Jesus because I am destine for hell now according to this scripture and Hebrews 6.

God Bless!

 

That is amazing, isn't it
You have discovered the TRUE meaning of:

Matthew 7:1-2 (KJV1611 Edition):

Iudge not, that ye be not iudged.
Mat 7:2 For with what iudgment ye iudge,
yee shall be iudged: and with what measure
ye mete, it shall be measured to you againe.