O.S.A.S. (Once. Saved. Always. Saved)

O.S.A.S. - don't go into the Great Tribulation
Period without it!

IMHSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved) is whatever
this means:

John 3:16 (KJV1611):
For God so loued ye world, that he gaue his only begotten Sonne: that whosoeuer beleeueth in him, should not perish, but haue euerlasting life.

 

I wasn't going to post in this thread anymore, but I can't let this go.

Sanctification is a process, but sanctification is not salvation. Being born again is not a process, it's an event.

Do you sin everyday? Do you lose your salvation everyday? How does this reconcile with the fact of being born again once?

Also, how does this reconcile with the fact that Jesus' blood washes away all my sins? There isn't one sin I've committed in the past or the future that isn't covered by the blood of Christ.

I'm not against preaching good works. We are created for good works. We are created to give pleasure to God and good works are a part of that. There are warnings given to the Christian who doesn't do good works, but losing salvation isn't one of them.

 

Ed,

you say:

Most baptists are pretrib, all believe in security salvation. OSAS depends upon pretribulationism so heavily. The mainly reason is.

Many baptists aware of Revelation 13:9-18 & 14:9-12 warning if any person worship the beast, or received the mark of the beast, will GO TO everlasting fire! They know this passage is not unconditional salvation, because it is a warning. That why most baptist pastors might saying to the congregation, 'this passage is not for us, because we are gone(rapture), do not worry about the Antichrist and the mark. These who will miss the rapture will not have unconditional salvation, but will face much risker chnace of salvation during great tribulation.

Second reason, why baptists believe we will be rapture first, because of the Holy Spirit leaves according 2 Thess. 2:6-7, as the grace gones. But, they misinterpreting what 2 Thess. 2:6-7 actual saying. Paul talks about the Antichrist of 2 Thess. 2:6-7 in the context of verse 3 thru 8. Paul told us of verse 6 that God does not allow Antichrist to be revealed, because it is not his time yet. God holds Antichrist back from being to be revealed. When God knows the right time to come, then God shall allow Antichrist to come out of the midst(way) of verse 7. Then, Antichrist shall be revealed - verse 8.

No, the grace of God never change since from the beginning to present, and will always be the same through great tribulation. Noah found grace of God(Gen. 6:8)about 2500 years before Calvary. Grace always there in the Old Testament period, just the same as today. Grace of God will always be the same during great tribulaiton. Even, the Holy Spirit still always there around Christians on earth during great tribulation - Mark 13:11. Also, the gospel of the kingdom still spreading over the world during great tribulation - Matt. 24:14. The very same gospel, as we preaching today, this gospel will be the same during great tribulation.

Third reason: Baptists believe we will be rapture first, because we shall not face the wrath of God. - 1 Thess. 1:10 & 5:9. I agree with 1 Thess. 1:10 and 5:9 amen. Many baptists say, 'tribulation' and 'wrath' are same. Bible disagrees with baptists. Both are different meaning. Wrath means great anger, fierce, judgment, punishment, angry comes from God. Tribulation means troubles, trials, persecutions. Christ tells us, that we must suffer tribulation - John 16:33, because Christ already overcome them through Calvary. Paul tells us, that we MUST go through MUCH tribulation into the kingdom of God - Acts 14:22. Paul tells us, we are appointed for tribulation - 1 Thess. 3:3-4. Why do we are appointed for tribulation? Because Christ already suffer on the cross for us, also Christ already face tribulation and persecution through Calvary. So, therefore, we should follow Christ's example - 1 Peter 2:21 and 1 Peter 4:12-16.

Wrath is for to punish on people who disobey and reject Jesus Christ, what the wrath for? Send them to everlasting fire. John 3:36 tells us, the wrath of God abideth upon the person, because of not believeth on Christ. That means, a person who do not believe on Christ, the wrath of God is remain on this person is for go to everlasting fire.

I love John 3:16. It is a beautiful verse with promise. Notice word, 'believETH' of KJV, it means believing. John 3:16 promises us, a person believing on Jesus Christ shall never go punishment, but have everlasting life. That mean, we must continue believe on Jesus Christ. OR, if we stop believing, we might be cut off - John 15:6 and Romans 11:19-23.

God's plan of salvation never change since from the beginning to now, and will always be the same during great tribulation till the end of the age at Christ's coming. Unconditional salvation still always be the same warning to everyone since from the beginning to now, and will always be the same during great tribulation till Christ comes.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

What about prodigal son of Luke 15:32? - "was dead, and is ALIVE again; and was lost, and is FOUND."

Yes of course, I commit sinned everyday. That why 1 John 1:9 commands us that we must confess our sins to Christ, SO, Christ is faithful to forgive us our sins all the time.

No. Unless if you stopped confess sin to Christ, then He would not forgive your sin. Also, if we do not carry our fruit, then our fruit(tree) is dying.

If we continue confess our sins to Christ daily, we are allright, and stay hold our hope of eternal life and endure to the end (Heb. 3:6 & 14).

Securists teaching that we are already forgived and wash away all our sins through Christ's blood at Calvary at once for all 2000 years ago.

I do not deny the atonement of Christ, and his blood. I say, amen.

Look to Hebrews 10:26-27 "For IFwe sin willfully AFTER that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth NO MORE sacrfice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

It tells us, IF we continue sinning AFTER we already hear the gospel, and believed(received)it, then no forgive for our sins aferward same with Heb. 6:4-6.

Of course, Christ forgived all our sins of past and present. When we heard the gospel, and believed in Christ, repent of our sins. Christ forgived all our sins of the past, and Christ do not remember our sins of past, because it is forgived. But, if we do not confess of our recent sins, Christ would not forgive our current sins, IF we do not confess our sins to Christ. And IF we continuing sins yet to commit in the future, then Christ would not forgive of our future sins. Unless, we must continue confess our sins to Christ faithfully, So Christ always faihtful to forgive us our sins (1 John 1:9) all the times.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Great post ccrobinson!

Wow! Deafposttrib & Straightandnarrow I am suprised that you call yourself Baptist??? This is not an attack but I am rather curious at your departure from Eternal Security which is historically a foundational doctrine in the Baptist Church. Can you explain? Why not worship with those that you agree with doctrinally?

 

Yes, whosoever believeth in him. The tense of the verb in greek is a continual, ongoing action.

 

What? I'm not talking about man's laws. Marriage and divorce are both explained in scripture. The covenant of marriage is intended to be for the life of both parties. But, like you say, adultery can break that covenant - because faithfulness is one of the conditions of the covenant.

Belief is the condition of the the new testament (covenant) in his blood. The covenant is intended to be eternal. But as belief is a condition of the covenant, the covenant can be broken by stopping believing, by rejecting the covenant.

 

Eternal security is not a Baptist distinctive. Wouldn't disagreement with OSAS fall under "individual soul liberty" or something?

 

"No longer committing sin" was not a condition of the new covenant, thus committing a sin (even though we should not sin) does not break the covenant. What can break the covenant is being unfaithful to the covenant itself, by no longer believing, rejecting the covenant, etc.

 

Hi J greyhound;

I thought I was pretty clear. Scripture doesn't say we are persevered by God, or Christ, or The Holy Ghost.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

natters,

"whatsoever is not of faith is sin" Rom. 14:23
So being unfaithful to the covenant is "not of faith" and therefore it is sin...So with your own criteria in use the "loss of salvation" is due to sin.

There is a problem in your reasoning.

Thanks,
Max

 

Pastor MHG, context. That verse says if you do something that you don't have faith is OK to do, you are sinning. If you eat meat or drink wine without having faith it is OK to do so, that is sinful. That verse has nothing to do with keeping/ending the new covenant.

 

What does "being unfaithful to the covenant itself" mean? How is being unfaithful to the covenant different from rejecting the covenant? Are you saying that a Christian stops believing that the blood of Christ washes away sins?

I got saved when I was 12. At that point, all of my sins, past, present and future, were washed away. Sins I have committed today, at age 36, were already washed away when I was saved at age 12. But, according to what I hear, I can stop believing that the blood of Christ washes away my sins. But, if past, present and future sins were washed away at my time of salvation, what makes you think that my supposed unbelief will bring them back? If I stop believing that God exists, does that mean he doesn't exist anymore? If I believed at age 12 that his blood washed away my sins, and then I decided I didn't believe that anymore at age 36, are the works of God then limited by my current unbelief?

What if I were saved at 12, stopped believing at 36, and then, at age 38, decided I was wrong at age 36? What then?

My sins weren't painted over by the blood, they were washed away by the blood, Praise God!

Why do opponents of OSAS presume that the Christian, once saved, gets to make the choice to be "unsaved"? God bought us with a price, didn't he? When we believed, didn't we then belong to him? Doesn't he have the right to do whatever he wants to with us? God wants everybody to be saved, and he already promised to never let us go. Why do you assume that God would allow us to "unsave" ourselves?

You say that God doesn't put us in a cage, but I ask you to prove it. Why can't he? We belong to him, don't we? Doesn't he have the right to do whatever he wants to with us? You say that I can't put my wife in a cage if she wants to divorce me, and you're right. Do you know why I can't put her in a cage? Because she doesn't belong to me. She belongs to God and he can do whatever he wants to with her.

There is more than one definition of cage. A cage can be defined as something that restricts freedom. Once we're saved, isn't our freedom restricted? Aren't there things that we don't do once we're saved because God told us not to do them? That sounds like restricting freedom to me.

God can do whatever he wants to with me, because he bought me. And he's never going to let me go.

 

Bottom line, Scripture warns and exhorts us to remain faithful, to endure, to abide, to not fall away. Scripture talks about shipwrecking faith, about drawing back to perdition, about returning to vomit. Scripture talks of sheep going astray, believers stopping believing, branches being cut off and thrown into the fire, entrusted servants being dismissed (or worse), the forgiven returning to a state of unforgiveness, being at the wedding without a garment and being cast out, etc.

I used to be OSAS, but I got tired of rationalizing these plain scriptures away. The New Testament is called the New Testament ("covenant") for a reason.

 

natters,
The context of the chapter (Romans 14) is the "faith" of a brother (v. 1). It is not the eating and drinking... that is merely an illustration that Paul used to demonstrate his point about "faith". Therefore, your challenge to my contextual problem is sent back to you.
The word "whatsoever" in v. 23 broadens the context way beyond eating and drinking.
So, according to your view...the sin of unbelief that Christ already paid for and cleansed in me can can be charged to my account again. That makes the blood very insufficient. This flies in the face of the cross at every turn.
My sin was charged to Christ's account on Calvary. The day I trusted Christ the Spiritual operation of God...the circumcision of my heart took place. (Col. 2) You have still failed to explain or provide any evidence that this Spiritual process can be reversed. Nor have you produced one biblical account (example) where this took place.

Thanks for reading,
Max

 

I agree. But the context is still about whether something is sinful or not, based on your faith. Not about keeping/breaking the covenant.

However, I agree there is sin involved in breaking the covenant - but the covenant is not broken simply because a sin took place.

Exactly, which Heb 10:29 is saying. And thus those who do this will receive a "much sorer punishment" as the same verse and the next 2 verses say.

I haven't? Perhaps you haven't read this entire thread. Looking back, I see I've mentioned Luke 8:13, 2 Pet 2:1, Matt 22:9-13, Matt 24:48-51, Jer 3:8, 2 Pet 2:20-22, Heb 10:29, Luke 3:9, Matt 3:10, Matt 13:41-42, Matt 22:2,12-13, Matt 25:14,30, Luke 9:62, Gal 5:15-21, Eph 5:2-5, and Hebrews 10:38-39. I've also alluded to many other passages.

And I've also yet to see someone directly respond to my comments about covenant, or my comments about all the warnings in scripture (which would be pointless if were impossible to fall away, be cut off, be cast into the fire, etc.)

 

quote:

PASTORMHG said...
"So, according to your view...the sin of unbelief that Christ already paid for and cleansed in me can can be charged to my account again. That makes the blood very insufficient. This flies in the face of the cross at every turn."

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natters responded...
"Exactly, which Heb 10:29 is saying. And thus those who do this will receive a "much sorer punishment" as the same verse and the next 2 verses say."
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So you would actually go as far as saying that the blood of Christ is very insufficient!

I think I am done discussing this with you!

Good Day,
Max

 

Of course Christ's blood is "sufficient". But is it "sufficient" to save someone who rejects it? Why aren't all people saved - isn't Christ's blood "sufficient"?

Sure, take my words out of context, and use that as an excuse to not respond to my points. Whatever.

 

Sorry Bro. the WRATH of God is TRIBULATION on
unrepentant humankind. The Wrath Time is the
Great Tribulation Time. Time periods are different
from conditions. Nevertheless, the wrath
of God condidition is when humankind will be
in a tribulation condition for their unrepentant stance.

I cannot think of anything a cruel god could
do worse than to let loose his children into
a situation where failure is the expected outcome.

Pastor MJG: " ... I am rather curious at your departure from Eternal Security which is historically a foundational doctrine in the Baptist Church."

I also am curious about this.
In other threads i've shown that the majority of
Baptists on the board who answered my poll were
taught the pretribulation rapture of the Church
and the majority of post-tribs were taught
pre-trib. So IMHO they have strayed from the
docritrines that God had brought to them.

 

Adultery does not break the covenant. Faithfulness is not a condition of the covenant. That is not what Jesus said. He said that divorce would be allowed, not automatic. You can forgive the sin and the covenant remains. The act does not break the covenant. It only allows the one who was wronged a choice of ending the covenant.

Besides, adultery and believing are two different subjects. Therefore the example does not carry any wieght in this topic.

Very good. You said that you know Jesus Christ is in you. I will assume that you also know He is the Son of God. You know that you have eternal life. In fact you know all things because you have an unction from the Holy One (1 John 2:20).

Please explain to us how one can know something but choose not to believe it?

I have a 1998 chevy 4x4 pickup. It is black, has a 350 vortex engine. I know these things because I have seen it with my own eyes. It is a first hand fact.

Tell me how I can say I don't believe this when I know it is true?

Wouldn't I be a liar to say I don't believe in Jesus Christ when I know Him and who He is?

Please explain this for me.

God Bless!