O.S.A.S. (Once. Saved. Always. Saved)

I agree. That's what I said earlier in the thread, and that's why I said "adultery can break", and not "adultery breaks".

Yes, they are different subjects. But they are both examples of a covenant. Both the covenant of marriage, as well as the new covenant in his blood, have conditions.

Very simple. People change beliefs regularly, both within and outside of religious issues. For example, like Ed, I "knew" the rapture was pretrib. But later I became convinced otherwise. I know someone who "knew" the KJV was the only word of God, but later changed their view. I know someone who "knew" Mormonism was correct, but later became convinced it was wrong. And conversely, I know someone who "knew" Jesus was the second person of the Trinity, but later became a Jehovah's witness.

Yes. But sometimes people later change their views. They stop believing. They break and leave the covenant.

 

Congratulations natters! You have all the facts about "belief" that you need to make a correct interpretation.

Ask yourself. Is there a difference between holding a " view " verses " knowing the truth "?

The examples you gave above are only " views " held. They did not truly " know " these things were true or else they would never have changed their " view ".

Christianity for the truly born again is not a " view " but rather a first hand knowledge of the absolute truth because of the Holy Spirit which is given to indwell the convert.

This is why Christianity is in opposition to "religion". It is a first hand knowledge, one on one relationship with the One and Only true God revealed in Jesus Christ.

A born again Christian " knows " with absolute certainty that Jesus Christ is Lord. The born again can never believe otherwise because they have been given the witness within first hand .

This is why we cannot say to other religions that they could be right as well. If anyone jumps from Christianity to another religion then they were following "Christianity the religion" and not "Christianity the relationship". There is a difference in this world. Hitler claimed to be a Christian. The KKK claims to be Christian. This is why James states that just saying you have faith is worthless.

Most people once "believed" in santa clause. This "belief" was not based on first hand "knowledge" but on second hand information.

So there are two types of belief going on in life and in the scriptures. One saves from the heart the other is tossed back and forth by the mind .

Like you mentioned before, the scripture states that some "believed" for awhile but then stopped. These never made it to "born again" otherwise they would have been given first hand knowledge which would then never again change. It couldn't, one cannot disbelieve something that they know first hand is truth! Plus, this first hand knowledge is living within you and consistently day by day, hour by hour, even minute by minute witnessing the truth over and over to your heart.

It is the same problem James spoke about. Saying you "know" and truly knowing is two different positions.

You, natters, absolutely know the truth because you have examined yourself and you know that Jesus Christ is in you, correct? You have an unction with the Holy One and know all things, correct?

If these things are not correct, then you are only "saying" you know but do not truly know. If this is the case, then you are not in danger of ending a covenant with Jesus Christ but rather never had one as of yet.

The examples you listed above can only be examples of people who "said" they knew or "thought" they knew.

Christianity stands alone in a sea of religion for it is by correct biblical definition not a religion but a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. This is personal, not just following words on paper. There are two Christianitys going on in this world. One is false and one is true. The false one will experience people coming and going. The true one will keep everyone who enters in through the rebirth, because this person is given a witness directly from God, not man, and "knows personally" that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior alone.

First hand personal knowledge can never be changed. It just cannot!

Natters, you have touched on the very core of the problem with "believing" and "unbelieving". The scriptures speak about belief in different ways. All you need to do is "rightly divide" what is a true witness from God to the heart belief and what is a false sense of belief which is conjured up from man's thoughts and emotions alone and has no eternal value.

I believed in santa clause for awhile, but when he never showed up for me to persoanlly get to know him I started to doubt. Later I learned that people just made it all up. I did "believe" once! But I never personally knew him. I couldn't, he did not exist.

But I do personally know Jesus Christ! I have communed with Him. I know He is real. I know He is the way, the truth, and the life! Now this "belief" is first hand experience. This belief cannot change because I have personally known it and it continues within me every day. It never leaves lest I might forget, and I can never disbelieve what I know is the truth.

There are two types of "belief" going on in this world and in scripture. I believe that if you, natters, would take the time to reflect on this, you would return to what you once "believed" about total security in Christ.

Some beliefs are formed opinions. Other beliefs are absolute truths!

I would venture to say that you personally feel no danger of ever disbelieving in Jesus Christ. Yet because your mind reads passages of scripture which are difficult to understand sometimes, you have concluded to preach to others that salvation can be lost. But, again, if true to your heart, I bet you don't feel any fear of ever losing your own salvation through disbelief. Your mind is saying yes, your heart is saying no!

Most people who preach the losing of salvation do so because they cannot reconcile the scriptures. There are some difficult passages to divide. Most say that it is so because of what their minds have concluded even though in their own hearts they don't feel one inkling of ever turning away from Christ or disbelieving what they have already experienced from within, in Him, born again.

God Bless you natters!

[ April 06, 2005, 08:25 AM: Message edited by: steaver ]

 

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, [27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. [28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: [29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? [30] For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. [31] It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [32] But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; [33] Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. [34] For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. [35] Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. [36] For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. [37] For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. [38] Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. [39] But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

2 Pet 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. [21] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. [22] But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

 

Some of those difficult passages I refered to.

We can discuss them, but what I am addressing is your position that one can stop believing something that they know is an absolute truth.

In verse 39 of Hebrews 10 you made bold the words " draw back unto perdition ". Are you ignoring the fact that the word states "But we (born again Christians) are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul ". That kinda blows the whole notion that this passage is for true believers! But it can be discussed.

As for 2 Pt 2:20, we can discuss it, but anyway you cut it one cannot personally know Jesus Christ is Lord and then chose not to "believe" it.

You know yourself, right? You are natters! How might you chose to believe that you are not natters? Please explain!

Don't you see how you cannot stop believing something that you have first hand knowledge of being true?

Either the truth is in you and has confirmed your belief or you are just following words in a book, or a religion. This is the purpose of "born again". Being born of God gives you first hand knowledge of the truth.

I give you absolute truths to consider. I explain my reasoning. You respond with a scripture post. There are absolute truths in this world and in personal relationships that you must address before we can commence a study of rightly dividing the word of truth. Scripture interpreting Scripture.

But first explain how you or I can choose not to believe we are natters and steaver!

God Bless!

 

Nothing difficult about them. Pretty straight forward if you ask me.

People are imperfect. They can be deceived. They can rationalize away truth. They can convince themselves that maybe they were wrong before. Sometimes for the good, sometimes for the bad.

No, I am not ignoring that at all. "we" doesn't mean "all". One cannot "draw back" from someplace one has never been, to someplace they had never left. You would have Paul talking about something that was impossible, giving pointless scripture.

Scripture says otherwise. Scripture mentions believers stopping believing. It mentions the forgiven returning to a state of unforgiveness, branches being cut off and thrown into the fire, entrusted servants being dismissed (or worse), being at the wedding without a garment and being cast out, etc.

If one became convinced their birth certificate was forged or false, and/or they began to doubt what their parents told them, etc., then one could even come to believe something different about their own identity.

I'm sorry, but you will not convince me that people can't be deceived from the truth they know. Scripture tells me they can.

 

Birth certificate has nothing to do with it. You are natters to natters no matter what anybody or anything else states ONLY because you have personal FIRST HAND knowledge!

You do exist don't you? You honestly think that someone can convince you that you really do not exist? What, you are an illusion then?

Again, please explain this so that it would make rational sense.

Can you?

God Bless!

 

And you said my marriage (covenant) analogy was too different, and therefore "does not carry any wieght in this topic."

Steaver, take a step back, and a take deep breath. Scripture mentions some believers who stop believing. Scripture mentions some that receive forgiveness who later have that forgiveness revoked. Scriptures warn against falling away, not abiding, being cut off and thrown into the fire (are scriptures warning against an impossibility???).

I don't know or understand what you want me to say about my own existence, or how that has anything to do with, let alone negate, those scriptures. I don't know if/how someone could be convinced they did not exist, but those scriptures are still sitting right there in black and white, regardless.

 

Natters,
Just for the record...I took nothing out of context...it was exactly as you had posted it.

Nice try though making it look as though I was less than honest in my reply!

Max

 

Pastor MHG, no hard feelings. I was not trying to make you look dishonest. I answered in the context of insufficient for those that reject it - not insufficient in general as your comment seemed to indicate. I apologize for the misunderstanding and breakdown in communication.

 

It does not negate the scriptures. Maybe you are wrong about those scriptures. You have changed your position in the past, correct?

If you do not believe there are absolute truths that one can come to know through personal experience, then what point is there in refering to the scriptures? It would just be my "view" opposing your "view". No foundational truths which must be adhered to, just my opinion and yours along with maybe two dozen others.

Natters, are there such things as absolute truths?

You "know" your existence is an absolute truth.

You can never stop believing this truth because you "know" it is true. Nothing outside of your own self needs to prove to you that it is true and nothing can make you stop believing it is true! You cannot stop believing it is true! IT IS ABSOLUTE!!

Do you "know" if Jesus Christ is the Son of God?

or

Do you "pretty much know" Jesus Christ is the Son of God?

or

Do you "think you know" he is the Son of God?

Do you "personally know" Jesus Christ is the Son of God? Do you have personal proof? Or do you only believe because the Scripture states that He is?

Do you have a religion called Christian or do you have a personal relationship with the Christ, the Son of God?

Anything personal you "know" about yourself, natters, is an absolute truth.

You can never stop believing what you already "know" to be truth! You cannot stop believing you exist. You "know" you do.

I believe the problem with people is that they throw around clearly defined terms very loosely and then after their position changes, they come to a conclusion that absolutes can change when in reallity the prior position was poorly defined in the first place.

Here is Webster's definition of "know".....

"To have knowledge; to have acquaintance or experience with, as, to know a thing is so"

"knowledge".... "Clear perception of a truth, fact, or subject. That which is known. Information gained and preserved."

One cannot "know" something and then choose to not believe it. If one chooses not to believe it then one never gained the knowledge in the first place. This person never "knew" it to begin with even if they "said" they knew it.

Natters, do you personally know Jesus is the Christ or not? If you do, then that is a truth you can never escape! Nor would anyone ever want to !

God Bless!

 

Again, scripture says otherwise. Scripture mentions some believers who stop believing. Scripture mentions some that receive forgiveness who later have that forgiveness revoked. Scriptures warn against falling away, not abiding, being cut off and thrown into the fire. Deal with it.

 

I can "deal with" all of those scriptures which you "believe" tell us that we can "stop believing" that which one has already obtained "knowledge" of as truth through personal experiences. However, you would not understand them as I do because you have not established the definition of absolute truths, that is truths that can be learned and can never change. Truths that are uneffected by a changing environment.

You obviously "know" that you exist. That can not change, therefore you cannot (with honesty) declare that you no longer "believe" this. You have to get up and be yourself every day! This is a constant absolute truth.

You also declare that you "know" Jesus Christ personally because He is in you and you in Him. Likewise, you must get up everyday and experience Jesus Christ as part of your existence.

So just how would this go down (stop believing)? Would you get up one day and say "well Jesus I know you are Lord and Savior, and it has been a wonderful roller coaster of a ride, but I choose this day to stop believing it, so could you please just leave my spirit the way you found it and go haunt somebody else"?

I asked you if there are such things as absolute truths?

I am sure you didn't mean to answer this question with "Scripture says otherwise".

So, natters, are there such things as absolute truths?

God Bless!

 

I agree there are absolute truths, and that we can know them. However, we are imperfect beings, capable of second-guessing ourselves, being deceived, etc.

 

Natters,

Can anyone know with absolute certainty that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?

Do you have a personal knowledge that this is an absolute truth? Or is it not so for you?

Take some time to carefully consider your answers before you respond.

God Bless!

 

Why should I continuously answer your questions when you continuously ignore ALL my comments and questions?

I'm out of town now until Monday, I'll use that time to "carefully consider" your question, although I really don't need that much time. I have been discussing straight scripture. You have been off on some philosphical tangent the likes of which I haven't seen since my university days. If you start addressing some of my stuff before I get back, that would be great.

BTW, "knowledge" is what the gnostics thought would save them. Me, I'll just settle for God's grace through faith, imperfect as I am.

 

Sounds good! I will wait until next week for your answers or the week after that, take your time.

I will also look over all of your comments and questions to me and see where I need to acknowledge the ones I missed.

"God's grace through faith, imperfect as I am"..........Is that not "knowledge" you have obtained?

God Bless!

 

"Nobody walks away from fried chicken and grabs a can of Alpo.

Neither has a Lifeguard ever pulled a person out of the water only to have them drown once they got on the bank. If your in Hell, you was never saved from nuthin, period." - Rev. Helvern Brimstone

 

Hi Natters,

I read through this entire thread once again. I did not engage you in this until page five. I don't see anywhere that I have flatout ignored any of your questions or comments to me personally. But look it over yourself and ask me again if it is something pressing. I will certainly give you an answer.

What I have noticed in your statements though, is that you kinda get precepts mixed up. I'm not sure that you clearly understand what it is that you really do believe. Here is what I mean.....

When I made the statement..." Unless losing salvation is more than not believing for you. Is it sinning, lack of works, lack of faithfulness "...you said...

So I am focused on this precept of "belief". We can discuss other precepts, but if I understand you correctly, for you belief is the only condition of the covenant with Jesus Christ.

You also go on to say....

You see, now you interject "unfaithfulness". "Unfaithful" and "not believing" are two different precepts. Unfaithfulness does not mean you stopped believing. It means you have sinned against that which you have pledged to be faithful too. "Faith" and "Faithful" are two different concepts. You know for a fact that every Christian commits the sin of unfaithfulness from time to time. It never indicates unbelief. It is a sin. You yourself said... " committing a sin (even though we should not sin) does not break the covenant. " Also to use your own analogy of husband and wife, being unfaithful to your spouse does not mean that you no longer believe that they are your spouse.

This is why I must ask, Just what is it which breaks the covenant in your view. One time you say it is just "belief". Another time you say it is the sin of "unfaithfulness".

My argument with you is over the precept of "belief". And this is why I ask you the questions concerning knowing Jesus Christ is Lord. If you do not believe that sin breaks the covenant then you must stop bringing those precepts into our discussion. I want to deal with belief and it seems that you want to discuss sins as well, even though you say that sins don't break the covenant.

You may address these comments, but I still would like answers to my previous questions concerning your personal knowledge of who Jesus Christ is.

God Bless!

 

Well for one, I've lost count of how many times I've tried to get you do discuss any of the scriptures I keep bringing up. For another, despite what one can "know" or "believe", you have not responded to my comments that we are finite, imperfect beings, capable of being deceived, second-guessing ourselves, changing our minds, etc. Also, I do not recall you simply responding to the comments about covenant.

Well, other things are related/dependent on it, like repentance, etc., but yes, that's the message of John 3:16.

You see, now you interject "unfaithfulness". "Unfaithful" and "not believing" are two different precepts. Unfaithfulness does not mean you stopped believing. It means you have sinned against that which you have pledged to be faithful too. "Faith" and "Faithful" are two different concepts. You know for a fact that every Christian commits the sin of unfaithfulness from time to time. It never indicates unbelief. It is a sin.
...
This is why I must ask, Just what is it which breaks the covenant in your view. One time you say it is just "belief". Another time you say it is the sin of "unfaithfulness".
</font>[/QUOTE]Carefully read again what I actually said. I wasn't talking about unfaithfulness in general, or sinning. I said "What can break the covenant is being unfaithful to the covenant itself...". In other words, turning your back on the covenant, rejecting it. This is done when one no longer believes.

I agree. I have discussed this earlier in the thread.

Thanks, but I will bring whatever precepts into our discussion that I think are necessary to explain what scripture says on the subject.

Sins and belief are still related, and affect each other.

OK, even though I'm still waiting for you to stop rationalizing and philosophizing, and instead start looking at scripture.

You asked "Can anyone know with absolute certainty that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?"

Sure, but by faith.

You asked. "Do you have a personal knowledge that this is an absolute truth?"

Sure, but by faith.

HOWEVER, salvation is NOT by absolute certainty and knowledge of absolute truth. It is by belief (Joh 3:16). We are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8). One can be saved without "absolute certainty" or "personal knowledge that this is an absolute truth". Knowledge does not save.

Are we done with the philosophy yet? Can we go back to the scriptures now?

 

See 2 Pet 2:20-22.

See Matt 18:23-35.