O.S.A.S. (Once. Saved. Always. Saved)

There are no "howevers" with an absolute. That would be a condition. This is the purpose of using such an adjective in my question. If you do not know that something is an "absolute" truth, then you are not quite sure it is true.

Therefore you could not say for sure that you exist or that Jesus Christ is in you without personal knowledge of the fact which then becomes an absolute truth. If I were a lost person, I sure wouldn't get any assurance from your testimony that Jesus Christ is real and that He could save a sinner like myself.

"Absolute"...." Free as to condition; perfect in itself; unlimited in power; free of admixture; not open to discussion, final, peremptory; dependant upon nothing else; primary and ultimate ."

Now as you can see, there are no "buts" or "howevers" acquainted with an "absolute".

You answer "sure but by faith".

Well, are you sure Jesus is Lord or not?

Are you living a blind faith?

Don't you know that Jesus Christ is in you?

Don't you have a "personal" relationship with Jesus Christ?

It seems from your answers that you have a relationship with the scriptures and are not so sure that Jesus Christ is absolutely the Son of God and Lord of all.

If you are absolutely certain that He is, then there can be no stopping your belief that He is who you have come to know that He is.

Now you said that I did not address the "covenant". You said that the only way the covenant can be broken is through stopping believing. Haven't I been addressing belief for the past three pages?

You have not been able to explain how one can stop believing that which they have personal knowledge of is an absolute truth.

Maybe you do not really know for sure if Jesus Christ is truth or fiction. Just how do you witness to the lost and convince them that they should trust in a person who you are not so sure is God by any absoluteness?

Do you wish to rethink your answers while keeping in mind the finallity of declaring something an "absolute truth"?

God Bless!

 

The "however" was not about the absolute, it was about the issue of what salvation involves. Good try though.

NOW can we discuss specific scriptures?

 

Natters, if I weren't saved, and you were witnessing to me, what would you tell me about how to be saved?

 

It depends. When I witness, I don't just shove a bunch of Bible verses down their throat, but I have used the "Roman Road" method, with lots of accompanying dialog, with success.

How would you? Would you agree with what steaver seems to be saying, that "absolute certainty of absolute truth" (ie. "concrete knowledge") is required for salvation, or with scriptures and me that belief and faith are what's needed?

I'd be interested in steaver's answers to these questions:

1. fill in the blank:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever _________ should not perish, but have everlasting life.

a. believeth in him
b. know with absolute certainty the absolute truth of him
c. can logically prove his existence

2. For by grace are ye saved through _______

a. knowledge
b. absolute certainty
c. faith

3. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt _________ that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

a. know in thine brain
b. believe in thine heart
c. feel in thine gut


But I'd rather not go off on a rabbit trail about how one is saved - the topic is rather can that salvation be lost.

 

So, if I believe that God raised Christ from the dead, and if I confess that belief, I can later retract it if I decide later that I don't believe it? Is this what you're saying?

 

Yes! People can change beliefs.

Not just me says it, scripture says it. I've posted the references numerous times. People believe, then sometimes (for various reasons) they stop believing and fall away. The forgiven return to unforgiveness. The branches can be cut off and burned. The wheat can be choked. The dog can return to the vomit and the sow that was washed can return to the mire.

 

The answer is simple...as Baptists we believe ALL Scripture. So, simply read Hebrews 6 for the answer.

If there is a sin, or sins, that I can commit that causes me to lose my salvation, then you're telling me that the blood of Christ isn't enough to wash my sins away.

Jesus Himself said blaspheming the Holy Spirit would NOT be forgiven in this world nor in the next one. And this was BEFORE His blood was shed. Now, whether this is enough to prevent one's being saved, I don't know. But I don't believe any Christian would ever commit such blasphemy.

 

You have misunderstood me if you think that is what I am saying. I have not been addressing what is required for salvation. Belief/Faith is what is required for salvation.

Now my faith comes from "knowing" in a "personal" way Jesus Christ because He is in me. With a personal one on one comes knowledge of the absolute truth that Jesus is Lord.

Can you say the same natters?

Are you absolutely sure Jesus is Lord?

If yes, explain how you can stop believing that which has been personally proven through a one on one relationship to be an absolute truth?

I will answer your questions soon.

God Bless!

 

a,c,b

God Bless!

 

People can and do change beliefs. It proves that they held no knowledge of the truth to begin with. Once someone knows an absolute truth they cannot from the heart believe it otherwise. Many "think" they know something is true but later decide it was not. This cannot happen with God's children because they are given a personal relationship with Jesus Christ as a result of accepting the call to faith in Him.

You have previously declared that stopping belief is the ONLY thing that will break the covenant of salvation.

Please tie this in with the above statement for me.

God Bless!

 

Scripture says otherwise, as I've repeatedly demonstrated.

You have previously declared that stopping belief is the ONLY thing that will break the covenant of salvation.
</font>[/QUOTE]I do not recall say it was the "ONLY" thing, perhaps you can show me where I said that. It is definitely a key part of the process. Anyway, these things are all related to each other. One that stops believing and returns to the mire, would essentially return to a state of unforgiveness in the process. I'm just reiterating examples from scripture.

Ya know, it's getting REAL tiring answering your questions and comments, and not having you reciprocate. You keep making claims on a philosophical level, and are avoiding responding to when I show you black and white scripture. You've been avoiding scripture for almost 5 whole pages, despite my numerous attempts to get you to address scripture. Why is that???? I think I know....

 

I'm not speaking for steaver at all, but you and I disagree on the interpretation of the Scriptures you've mentioned. I'd bet that steaver disagrees with you too. If you can't agree on Scripture interpretation, we can talk till we're blue in the face and get nowhere. I'm thinking this is why steaver is appealing to the philosophical level, but I don't know that for sure.

Speaking of knowing for sure, I don't really know that he's saved, or you, or my pastor, or my wife, or anybody really, except me. You say that a Christian can unbelieve, but since you don't have the ability to judge the heart, how can you know that somebody who says they're a Christian is saved in the first place?

I believe that a Christian, having once professed that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, can't "unbelieve" it. If they can, then they weren't saved in the first place.

 

I said, "Unless losing salvation is more than not believing for you. Is it sinning, lack of works, lack of faithfulness "...

You said,

You said,

This is not difficult.

"Unfaithfulness" is a "SIN"

"Unforgiveness" is a "SIN"

Do you understand your own words?

Give one example from scripture that declares one stopped believing and returned to a state of unforgiveness. Just one please!

Anyone can read the black and white but not everyone studies to show themselves approved unto God, rightly dividing the word of truth, precept upon precept.

If you would have begun your doctrine building with a firm understanding of "born again" you would not be in the position you are which has you mixing up word definitions like in your quotes above. You would also understand that personal knowledge of Jesus Christ and a personal relationship with Him gives you real knowledge of an absolute truth .

God Bless!

 

Thats OK. Do you want to explain why? The scripture says we are saved when we believe. It also says that some stop believing.

I don't.

I believe scripture says otherwise, and I've tried to explain why.

 

Don't be like that, of course I understand my own words. However, apparently you don't. I have already explained this several times in the thread, and I'm sorry if you don't "get it". Sin, in general in and of itself, does not break the covenant - just like sin, in general in and of itself, does not end a marriage. Yet when you leave the covenant, whether salvation or marriage, a sin is committed in the process. I don't know how to make it any clearer for you.

YAY!!!! FINALLY you want to talk about scripture!!! I already have given examples of this, several times. One example I've already given a many times in this thread is Luke 8:13. Another is Matt 18:23-35. Another is Heb 10:29. There are more.

As I've already said, I AGREE with that. Where I differ from you, is that "knowledge of absolute truth" is not necessarily a permanent condition. We are fallible, imperfect beings, susceptible to deception, second-guessing ourselves, etc. You have done nothing to convince me that this is not true. Scripture, on the other hand, seems to explain it quite clearly:

2 Pet 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. [21] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. [22] But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

 

What is "clear" is that you do not see how confusing your statements are. " Sin does not break the covenant "....Fine, then leave unfaithfulness out of it!......" Yet when you leave a covenant a sin is committed...... You cannot see how your statements are contradictive and make no sense!?!

Did sin break the covenant or not?!

It is very difficult following your train of thought. You need to do some rethinking and rewording of what it is you actually believe.

I am eager to get to those scriptures you posted. My time is limited lately, but I will begin with Luke 8 as soon as posible.

God Bless!

 

Just a quick comment to...

You may disagree all you want, but you are not disagreeing with any private interpretation of mine, you are disagreeing with an absolute truth. Knowledge of an absolute truth is final. Did you miss the definitions I gave from Webster's dictionary? Here they are again....

"Absolute"...." Free as to condition; perfect in itself; unlimited in power; free of admixture; not open to discussion, final, peremptory; dependant upon nothing else; primary and ultimate ."

Do you understand now that you haven't the luxury to " agree " with the statement yet believe it is " not necessarily a permanent condition ".

I gotta tell you natters, you can really make my head hurt!

God Bless!

 

I've already answer this, many times. I apologize if I don't explain it very well. Let me try one more time. Note I said "Yet when you leave a covenant a sin is committed" - that does NOT mean the sin itself is what caused the end of the covenant, but rather it was an effect of having the covenant ended.

BUT REGARDLESS of whether you understand what I am saying or not, regardless of whether or not there are "holes" in the way I explain myself, and regardless of "how" it can happen, scripture says it can happen. Maybe it's time to stop worry so much about what I'm saying, and start dealing with what scripture says, eh?

I hope you understand if I'm skeptical about that.

My time is limited lately, but I will begin with Luke 8 as soon as posible.

I know what "absolute" means, no need for a dictionary. However, the truth is absolute and remains so regardless of anyone else's understanding of it. If someone knows an absolute truth, that truth is still absolute even if that someone is later deceived about it. The Bible is full of examples of people who knew the absolute truth of a matter, and later were deceived or for some other reason stopped believing it. I've posted several verses that even specifically deal with having that knowledge, then later turning from it (2 Pet 2:20-22, Heb 10:26ff, etc.) And as usual, you completely ignore them and try to convince me of the opposite of what they clearly say.

That's because you're trying to rationalize everything, instead of simply dealing with scripture. I'm just reiterating what scripture says, and you're trying to poke holes in it. That's what's making your head hurt.

 

I wasn't going to post in this thread anymore, but I can't let this go.

Sanctification is a process, but sanctification is not salvation. Being born again is not a process, it's an event.

Do you sin everyday? Do you lose your salvation everyday? How does this reconcile with the fact of being born again once?

Also, how does this reconcile with the fact that Jesus' blood washes away all my sins? There isn't one sin I've committed in the past or the future that isn't covered by the blood of Christ.

I'm not against preaching good works. We are created for good works. We are created to give pleasure to God and good works are a part of that. There are warnings given to the Christian who doesn't do good works, but losing salvation isn't one of them. </font>[/QUOTE]Like your delivery. Christian faith, ituttut

 

Very good then. Let's not say that unfaithfulness causes a break in the covenant. For you it is solely "stopping believing".

So you keep saying, but you simply are not rightly dividing the word of truth. The "born again" never stop believing.

It is sad you think that Jesus Christ is not capeable of keeping His children from being deceived.

Now on to Luke 8:13. Right up front I can see your error. You think that whenever you read the word "believe" it absolutely means this person has been "born again" and has recieved the saving knowledge that comes from a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Scripture gives different examples of people who "believe" and then reject Jesus as Lord.

You see it is the "who do you say that I am" question which is the qualifier for salvation. Not do you believe all that Jesus is saying.

Many of Jesus' "disciples" believed what Jesus had to say until it came to Him elavating Himself to a position equal with God.

John 8:31-32, "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed , And ye shall know the truth , and the truth shall make you free".

Do you see how they "believed" on him but Jesus said they had yet to "know the truth" and be made "free" through that truth. Jesus did not recognize them as true disciples for He said " If ye continue....then ye are my disciples indeed ". These "believers" were not yet saved!

By the end of the conversation (vs 59) they took up stones to cast at Him. Proving as He said, that they were really children of the devil and not true believers.

Only one group of people are truly saved in the parable of the sower and that is the fourth group. All of the others are decieved or false in some way.

You need to understand that "believe" does not always mean "born again faith in Christ". The scriptures proves this out.

There is a difference in believing someone is a prophet sent by God giving revelation and believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Take Nicodemus for example. He said, " Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God :". But Nicodemus was not saved was he? No, he needed to be "born again" and this is what Jesus went on to tell him and us.

Here is a good commentary on this subject of the sower...

"The parable of the four soils is found in every Gospel except John’s. The four types of soils could easily be located within the same field. They represent the hearts (vs. 15) or minds of men.

(1) The way side or pathway soil (vs.12) is hardened and uncultivated, and the seed which represents God’s Word cannot penetrate it. Note the influence of Satan in keeping this type of person from believing (cf. 2 Cor 4:4).
(2) The rocky ground (vs. 13) has a thin layer of dirt over solid rock. This one is completely superficial and emotional, but has no root.
(3) The thorny ground (vs. 14) is a double-minded man. He makes a profession, but it is unreal.
(4) Only the good ground (vss. 8, 15) bears any fruit and represents a really saved individual. Jesus taught His disciples that they would sow much seed, but should not be distressed by seemingly poor results and some cases of apparent salvation which were in reality nothing but an outward emotional experience.

Verses 16-18. These verses contain a great principle regarding the outward indication of one’s salvation: there should be no secret believers. Really saved people will grow in grace but mere professors will lose even that which they seem to possess".

From James A. Borland, Th.D. Professor, Liberty University B.A., Los Angeles Baptist College; M.Div., Los Angeles Baptist Theological Seminary ; Th.M. , Talbot Theological Seminary; Th.D., Grace Theological Seminary.

Looking forward to studying the passage you gave in Matthew and posting my findings.

God Bless!