O.S.A.S. (Once. Saved. Always. Saved)

Yet they are all related. For example, if one stopped believing, they wouldn't remain faithful, etc. There is usually more going on than you can reduce to a simple forumla.

Disagreeing with you is not necessarily not rightly dividing the word of truth.

Usually this is true. But I'd like to see you prove from scripture that it's true for everyone.

What really is sad is that you seem completely oblivious to the several dozen NT verses that talk about being deceived and warning against it.

I don't know if I believe that "whever I read the word 'believe'" that is the case, but I certainly do in Luke 13:8.

Yes. They believed, they fell away. Continuing, ongoing belief is required to keep the covenant intact - just like I've been saying for 10 pages.

The ones in verse 13 "hear, receive the word with joy" and "for a while believe". They "sprung up" (verse 6), which is not possible without new life (the seed must die to cause the new life to spring up). If these people were in an accident or something, and were killed after they believed and sprung up but before they whithered and fell away, do you think they'd end up in hell, despite receiving, believing, and growing in their new life?

 

It certainly is not the case. Jesus said, " these have no root ".

Scripture must interpret scripture. We are commanded to rightly divide the scripture.

"And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof." (Rev 5:1-5)

Luke 8:13, "these have no root "

"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star". (Rev 22:16)

Luke 8:13, "these have no root "

"For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root , but the root thee. (Rom 11:16-18)

"And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him all ye people. And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall Gentiles trust. Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost. (Rom 15:11-13)

Luke 8:13, " these have no root ". Jesus is not nor ever was in them. So in this case, "believe" is not a belief based on having recieved the saving knowledge of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Jesus revealed so when He said " these have no root ".

I threw in Romans 15 verse 13 for you. Paul knows that it is " through the power of the Holy Ghost " that one " may abound in hope ". Not through any power of my own. If it must come from me then I would have "stopped believing" years ago.

God Bless!

 

Did someone mention my name?

They do that same false doctrine scam to me here too, don't feel bad Z !

ROFL

 

I agree. What you don't understand is that it is the Holy Spirit who is the source of your faith and keeping it ongoing. Alone we would fail. But we have Christ and He will not therefore we will not. This is the purpose behind being "born again". No religion offers a personal one on one relationship with God in this way. You have been given something special. It is a gift! You should think long and hard before taking a position that your salvation has anything to do with you other than you accepted God's offer and then He sealed you with the Holy Ghost.

God Bless!

 

Would be my pleasure. But I get the impression you are a doubting Thomas and like Paul, unless Jesus Himself appears before you and tells you to stop kicking against the pricks, you aren't about to change your mind. You more than proved this with the "absolute truth" discussion when you were clearly shown that one cannot stop believing something that they have personal knowledge is an absolute truth. However, I will take the time to do so for "everyone" who has an ear to hear. (gotta go for now)

God Bless!

 

When a seed falls to the ground and dies and springs up, its root takes time to grow as well. It doesn't have a gigantic root as soon as it starts to grow. So although your connection with the "Root of David" is worth considering, I'm not certain this scriptural connection is what was intended.

Also, consider the seed that fell among the thorns. It also grew, and it does not say it had no root. What of them?

And what of Matt 3:10 and Luke 3:9? ("And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.") These are tree which have root.

I agree! But the gift can be returned and discarded. Heb 10:29.

I have thought long and hard about it. I did more than just "accept" his gift. I believed.

Then please proceed.

No, you never proved it. Nor did you even respond to me pointing out multiple times that the truth is still absolute even if one stops believing it. We are imperfect beings, capable of being deceived (yes, the NT says so!) and second-guessing ourselves.

 

Luke 8 is dealing with the sowing of the word of God and who it is whom accepts it and keeps it. Matt 3:10 and Luke 3:9 is dealing with repentance... " Bring forth fruits meet for repentance " (vs 8).

In Luke 8 it is the word of God that is in focus concerning "rooting". In Matt 3:10 it is the nation Israel's roots which are in focus. Israel to this day believes in a nationalistic salvation. John rebukes them for trusting their salvation is through physical descent (Abraham) rather than a spiritual relationship to the father of faith (vs. 9).

This from Edward E. Hindson, Th.D., D.Min . ... "The axe about to chop the root of the trees is a reference to the impending judgment coming upon Israel (God's chosen tree, cf. Rom 11) if they reject the Messiah-King. Fruitlessness is depicted as a lack of conversion and spiritual life. No fruit means no life in the soul".

I agree with his commentary on this.

Proper study and dividing of Hebrews will lead one to a different answer. We will get to Hebrews I'm sure, but I would first like to take time to address your previous references. One at a time please

Now why would you believe in something that you have no idea is real or true? Just because it sounds good?

"the truth is still absolute even if one stops believing it"

Yes it is. That is not what our discussion was about. You left out "personal relationship, person to person knowledge" of an absolute truth.

Natters...

You are right that I did not prove it, you proved it for me. You have personal knowledge that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Personal knowlege of an absolute truth cannot change. The truth cannot change and the knowledge cannot change. The only way you can stop believing is if you really are not absolutely sure Jesus is the Son of God. Then of course you never truly had personal knowledge that it is true, but only professed to.

I will ask again so you can confirm your position. Are you absolutely sure Jesus Christ is the Son of God?

Also natters, saying "yes, but by faith" does not give you an out. Faith is circumstantial. Christian faith is based on a personal relationship with the Author of that faith. Therefore it is not a blind hope created in the mind which can come or go. Either you personally know a person by the name Jesus Christ and who He is, or you don't.

I know my son Vincent. I know who he is. Can I stop believing he is my son? Can someone or something deceive me into believing he is not my son? Can I second guess the fact that he is my son?

Natters, brother, scrap the insecurity position, tear down that which you have built upon the foundation of Jesus Christ before it is burned, and begin with humble prayer before God first grasping a firm understanding of "born again". Jesus said this was a "must"! It must therefore then be very important. And He did not say it was a must for opening a dialogue with God. He said it was a must for entrance into heaven. Being born of God, a new creature, connected to Christ.

A gift brother, pure and simple, a gift. If it were possible, who would give back a gift which had no strings attached? At worse, they would waste it, but never would say to God "take it from me Lord". Even that would make no sense because they would be asking for God to stop making them believe. No, you simply cannot stop believing that which has taken over your spirit and soul.

Time for bed

God Bless!

 

steaver,

People "know with absolute certainty" who their spouses are, but people still get divorced.

I'm sorry but I'm ending my participation in this thread for now. You may feel I'm wanting to avoid your points, and that's fine with me if you think that (even though it's not true). I'm not above correction, but I feel you: 1. repeatedly avoid many of my key points, instead getting stuck in disecting side-tangents, 2. rationalize away the on-the-surface meaning of scripture (during this thread, I have even had an OSAS believer write privately to me and agree about this), and 3. lately you have even been making carefully-worded, condescending personal jabs at my spiritual condition and intelligence. You no doubt disagree, but that's how I see the last 5 pages of this thread. Maybe we'll return to discussing this subject again in the future, but basically I've had enough.

Salvation, like marriage, is a covenant.

 

OSAS is the most dangerous belief there can be. Most people in churches today believe that all they need to to do to assure salvation is to go forward one time in their lives and shake the preacher's hand and they are saved. Nothing could be further from the truth. Given, salvation is by grace freely given but we are told that we "must be born again." That means changed completely. The Bible also says that we must "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" and that we must "take up our cross" and follow Him. None of this is compatible with the "cheap grace" being peddled today in most churches.

 

StraightAndNarrow,

That's true.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

StraightAndNarrow: "Most people in churches today believe that all they
need to to do to assure salvation is to go forward one time in their
lives and shake the preacher's hand and they are saved."

I don't believe you, most people don't believe
as you say. I'm starting a poll to see if this is correct.

See the poll (and vote on it, please) at:

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/3/2895.html?

 

many baptist churches do their soul winning method, when they witness to people, and lead them to Christ. They say to them, "You are already saved, no matter how often you sin, you still saved and will go to heaven." That is a bad influence. My old friend told me, when he was at college in Minneapolis in year 1988. Two deaf baptists came and visit his apt and they witnessed to him and his roommate too. When after my friend accepted Jesus Christ. They told him and roommate, "No matter how often you sin, you are saved, you will go to heaven." My friend was surprised, in his mind, he refused trust what they saying, but he rathers trust in the Lord. He already determined not want to turn away from the Lord, want to be faithful to the Lord.

My old friend told me, he heard recent news of two deaf baptists who witnessed to him of salvation, both are already fall away from the Lord.

Yes, OSAS is a dangerous.

By the way, I agree with Romans 10:9-13 100% as what Ed shows it in the new poll. Notice word, "shalt be" mean future sense, not the offically or being guaranteed already saved at the moment when after you believed and accept Christ. Salvation is a process. Romans 10:9-13 talk about the promise for us, IF we confess with heart and mouth believe that God hath raised Christ from the death, WILL BE SAVED.

Notice Matt. 24:13 telling us, we must be endure all the way to the end then SHALL BE SAVED. Our salvation is a process throughout our life till death, that we must be endure all the way to the end at our death or Lord comes, then will be saved is the picture of have victory and overcometh.

Same with Matt. 7:13-14 telling us, when we hear the gospel, believed in Christ, then we are on the road and we are in spiritual warfare. Our salvation is not finish yet, we must strive all the way to the end getting into the narrow road till we die or Lord comes, then shall have victory or overcometh. Most of them who heard the gospel, and did believed in Christ, did walk on the road same as what faithful servants walk. But shortly later, they turn off, and go in thier own way, get on the wrong road, lead them to destruction - everlasting punishment.

Our salvation does not being guaranteed or offically at the moment when after we hear and believe the gospel. Our salvation is a process.

How about Eph. 1:13? I am sure most osas use this verse to prove of security salvation as the Holy Spirit already secure them as sealed in them at the moment when after a person hear the gospel and believed it.

Notice Eph. 1:14 says, "which is the earnest of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possessionunto the praise of his glory."

Eph 1:14 tells us, we are being sealed with the Holy Spirit is the serious and hold of our inheritance TILL the redemption of the purchased possession. Notice word, 'redemption' is also find in Eph. 4:30 "And grieve NOT the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed UNTO the DAY of redemption."

We are being sealed by the Holy Spirit is the picture of we are being engaged with Jesus Christ, we are not yet marry Christ till Revelation chapter 19 at his coming.

What is 'day of redemption' speaks of? In Luke 21:28 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up and lift up your heads; for your REDEMPTION draweth nigh." Luke 21:28 tells us, when after we see the signs come and pass, then look up in the sky for Christ's coming to delivery our body is speak of rapture, that our body all shall be changed into immortality according 1 Cor. 15:51-54.

When we sin, does the Holy Spirit leave us? No. When we sin, we hurt the Holy Spirit, because He dwells in us as we are sealed. When we are continue sinning, will the Holy Spirit leave him? No, when we continue sinning, we are leave or forsake the Holy Spirit.

I remember Late Dr. Curtis Hutson's sermon on the Holy Spirit in 1993. He said, when we sinned, Holy Spirit does not leave us, we turn away from the the Holy Spirit as we are backslidding(he signed of ASL as 'backslidding'). He was right. When we continue sinning, Holy Spirit does not leave us, but we forsake him, and of course hurt Holy Spirit.

Luke 15:11-32 is a perfect example of backslidder. Father never leave us, same as Holy Spirit never leave us, but we can leave Holy Spirit by forsake and sinning. Christ tells us, when we forsake him, and continue backslidding, we are LOST and DEAD. - verse 32. Unless if we turn back to the Lord and repent again, then we are find and alive again. It is speak of spiritual.

We are not yet marry to Jesus Christ, we are still are engaged with Jesus Christ as Holy Spirit are being sealed within us. Salvation is a process throughout our life till we die or Lord comes. If we endure all the way while we are engaged with Jesus Christ same time till we die, then will be victory and overcometh, will marry to Jesus Christ at His coming of Revelation chapter 19.


Ed, you can use Romans 10:9-13 as 'proof' of osas or security salvation, if you want to. How about the whole context of Romans chapter 6 warning to us, that we do not continue sin under the grace of God, and not let sin rule over us. What about Romans 11:19-22 warn us, do not be disbelief, if we are being disbelief, we might be cut off same with John 15:6.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

StraightAnd Narrow: "OSAS is the most dangerous belief there can be."

DeafPosttrib: "Yes, OSAS is a dangerous."

How can teaching the truth be 'dangerous'?

BTW, here is how i define "OSAS = once saved, always saved".

JOhn 3:16 (KJV1611 Edition):

For God so loued ye world, that he gaue his only begotten Sonne: that whosoeuer beleeueth in him, should not perish, but haue euerlasting life.

What ever haue euerlasting life is what OSAS means.
How can the truth be 'dangerous'?

Matthew 24:13 (KJV1611 Edition):

But he that shall endure vnto the end, the same shall be saued.

This is true. It does not logically follow from the truth
of this statement that:

He that shall not endure unto the end,
the same shall not be saved.

If this statement is true, it must be proved from other
scripture, it cannot be proved from Matthew 24:13 being true.
I believe that this second statement is NOT true.

 

DeafPosttrib: "How about the whole context of Romans chapter 6 warning to us,
that we do not continue sin under the grace of God, and not let sin rule over us."

Yes, Romans Chapter 6 tells what the saved person will do.
The unsaved person will not do it.

DeafPosttrib: "What about Romans 11:19-22 warn us, do not be disbelief, if we are being disbelief, we might be cut off same with John 15:6."

Romans 11:19-22 is NOT about individual salvation but national
Israeli salvation.
John 15:6 is about those who are not saved who try to follow Jesus.

 

DeafPosttrib: "Same with Matt. 7:13-14 telling us, ... "

Matthew 7:13-14 is written to a lost person.
Not all lost persons will get saved.
All saved persons will stay saved.

 

Yes they do. They get divorced through sin. I have been addressing the fact that one cannot stop believing that which they have personal knowledge of is a absolute truth. People do not get divorced through unbelief. "Unfaithfulness" and "unforgiveness" sure, but "unbelief" no.

Therefore your position has to be that Christians can become unsaved through sin. I know you said that this is not the case, but you said that sin and belief are connected. These two are absolutely not connected under the blood of Christ. "Unbeief" alone in and of itself is a sin. It is committed only by the lost. The saved are given the Holy Spirit which testifies continually that we are the children of God... " The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God " (Ro 8:16). The only way this testimony could stop would be if Christ stopped testifying to us.

"For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" (Heb 10:14)

"perfected"...."for ever"...."them" (this would be born again Christians)....."that are"(not will be at a future date)...."sanctified".

"Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more " (Heb 10:15-17)

There is your "covenant". This is what you received when you were "born again". God put the Holy Ghost in you as His witness of ownership. God put His laws into your mind and heart. God declares that sins and iniquities He will no longer remember. If God cannot/will not "remember" them no longer, how then can one return to a state of unforgiveness after God has forgiven them? They cannot, God would then be a liar!

These things are God's convenant in the new testament. The covenant is established through faith, not just blind faith, but born again faith. Real faith, true faith, absolute knowledgeable faith in a real Person. Once you are born of God, your faith is sustained by the Holy Ghost. It lives in you moment by moment day by day.

Think about it! If God lives in you, two become one, sin is forever covered by the blood, you cannot stop believing because He is ever present in you, .....you simply cannot lose!

Here is what people think. But what about this passage, what about that passage. It should be obvious for a Christian, who has the witness of God within, that these seemingly "on the contrary" passages must have some other message than a Christian becoming lost. It is our job to seek God and counsel to rightly divide all of scripture that it may all fit perfectly together so we may use it as a tool in our witnessing to the lost.

There are hundreds of commentaries by well renown men who have written about those seemingly contradictive passages which make perfectly good sense and are very plausible interpretations. In fact, if one takes into consideration all of the passages which declare that a Christian is signed, sealed and delivered, they fit perfectly into God's Word and the entire Bible declares a uniformed message that "By Grace ye are saved through faith....and that not of yourselves , it is the gift of God "

This is why teaching that a Christian can become unforgiven is so destructive to God's kingdom. It gives the impression that our God is just another salvation by "do's and don'ts". That somehow we must earn favor rather than receive grace as a gift.

I don't think that brother. I pray you will take the time to consider my points. I would wager that in your heart you don't believe for one moment that you will ever stop believing in Jesus Christ. Wouldn't it be pretty sad if you found yourself in hell one day, thinking how in the world did I get here, just to find out that the true God of this world saved you once but then allowed you to be deceived and die?

You are saved and kept by the power of God brother. You need not fear the deceiver any longer. You have the Victory over him and death, Jesus is living in you. We serve the only living God.

" For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father "(Ro 8:15)

Rejoice brother! Please don't think that you can lose your salvation. We don't have religion, we have something far greater, a relationship with the Living God! A Witness within! We cannot fail!

Point 1, I am earger to address your key points. The first was that you believe a Christian can stop believing. We are still working on this one. Point 2, you will need to explain. I'm not sure what you mean, maybe you could bring them forth for me and I will address them. Point 3, I think that your spiritual condition is saved and forever saved and you seem intelligent to me. If I have offended you personally, I appologize and will be more careful in the future.

God Bless!

 

If this is your definition of OSAS then I say Amen!

Amen, once again!

God Bless!

 

I agree, that would be a very bad way to witness. I'm not a baptist, but I know many and don't know any one of them who would say such a thing to a new convert or any Christian.

Anyway you slice it up, it still states we are "sealed". "sphragizo"..."to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or preservation.

"Security and preservation". Powerful words! Do you think man can break a seal which has been placed by God? No, but God can break it right, if we sin? Then it would be sin that breaks the seal and not God. Also God would be a liar when He said "their sins and iniquities I will remember no more".

God Bless!

 

Hi all! Sorry I have been absent for awhile. I am renovating a log home and it has been consuming much of my time.

I know natters has chosen to withdraw from this discussion for now, but I would still like to address the passages of scripture which he has put forth declaring support of the position that one can become a child of God and then wind up in the end in hell. This will take some time because he has listed many. I want to study and rightly divide them so that any silent observers can make an informed decision as to whether or not they support the view. We will probably find that many of these passages do not have anything to do with the topic at all and some may even support OSAS. So let's begin!

I went back to the first time natters engaged with me on the issue. I have been told that I have ignored his references so I want to start from the beginning and try to cover them all. By the way, he is correct in saying that I have ignored many of them. I did so because doctrine must be built precept upon precept and for a Christian it must start with the precept of being "born again". This is foundational. Without this foundational truth firmly established other scriptures will sometimes lead one to stray off the original topic. I will try to incorporate the rebirth into my responses to the scriptures he has put forth.

Matt 13:41-42.... "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth".

"all things that offend, and them which do iniquity"

It puzzles me why this passage is a reference to the born of God being thrown into hell. God said that in this new covenant.... " I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more ". (Heb 8:12)

Yet in the passage above scripture states that those who do iniquity will be cast into hell. It seems clear that something is missing from this equasion in Matt 13:41-42. One is that those who have been born again have been forgiven and are covered by the blood of Christ.

The parable is about God sowing "good seed" in His field (the world) vs 24. The enemy (satan) also sowed seed in God's field vs 25. The servants asked if they should go gather up the tares (unbelievers) vs 28. God says no lest ye root up the wheat (believers) with them vs 29. God said let both grow together until the harvest vs 30.

We have not the capability of knowing with absolute certainty which are true believers and which are not. We would end up casting out true believers while embracing the wolves. So God says that he will do it at the end of this world. Good thing for all of us!

Matt 13 has nothing to do with once believing and then unbelieving which is the subject at hand. It is about believers and unbelievers living side by side in this world until judgment day. Not one mention about having believed and then stopping believing. So this passage has proven to have nothing to do with the born of God being cast into hell.

Matt 22 tomorrow God willing!

God Bless!

 

(I can't resist. )

Except they can't "gather out of his kingdom" those that were not in his kingdom to begin with.

I thought of that too initially, but then I realized that the tares were not in the kingdom, because scripture says one must be "born again" to be in the kingdom of God (John 3:3,5). The tares of Luke 8 differ as they were not in the kingdom (as I'm sure you agree), while those "gathered out of the kingdom" in Matt 13:41-42 could not be gathered out of something if they were not initially in it.