O.T. espouses flat earth?

What is? Magi visiting Joseph and Mary does not constitute "Babylon" consulting "The Jews", if that is what you are referring to...

Was "cleanliness" developed explicitly for medical use by those smart Israelites? No, it was a ceremonial procedure whose use was not predicated by any understanding of the existence of germs.

So the Bible is just one big newspaper?

I understand the language of appearance. I also understand that it's an attractive way to claim that the Bible isn't saying what it says.

A more relevant question is, how much of the Holy Spirit do you really believe, should it move in ways that you don't understand?

The answers to the above questions is a combination of "maybe" and "probably".

It's the standard of faith and practice, written by men who experienced the Word of God.

You don't need an entire library to store the shape of the earth.

Revelation is apocalyptic literature and is therefore symbolic.

"Raqiya" is a technical term for the hard vault of the heaven over the flat earth. "Tehom" is a technical term for the ocean on which all dry land floats.

 

oh help....

try doing a little study yourself on this one, BW, it's not hard...

Your explanation ranks as one of the most ridiculous ones I have read on this subject, and I have read some pretty weird stuff. Might I suggest that you make friends with a competant Hebrew scholar?

 

oh help....

try doing a little study yourself on this one, BW, it's not hard...

Your explanation ranks as one of the most ridiculous ones I have read on this subject, and I have read some pretty weird stuff. Might I suggest that you make friends with a competant Hebrew scholar?</font>[/QUOTE]A better question is, can you find a competent Hebrew scholar that disagrees with the above? It's pretty standard stuff in OT studies.

 

Helen,

And may I suggest that you stop speaking with such patronizing authority on a subject in which you have little (if any?) formal training. I realize that - for some reason - these issues are so important to you that you feel like people who don't share your views on the Hebrew Bible aren't true Christians.

Nevertheless, like your "scientific" views, your understanding of ancient Near Eastern cosmology is the minority one among biblical scholars.

B.W.'s understanding of OT cosmology is backed up by Harrelson's article "The Significance of Cosmology in the Ancient Near East" in Translating and Understanding the Old Testament as well as every other book on Genesis that I've ever read by a "competent Hebrew scholar."

It's also backed up by the parallel accounts in places like Enuma Elish.

Joshua

 

Joshua, This really goes back to the same issue underlying your claim to the label "mainstream." By your own admission, you are almost completely one-sided in your perspective and training. That leaves you in a very poor position to chastise Helen for being one-sided.

 

Scott,

I define mainstream scholarship as that which is published by generally respected publishing houses like Oxford University Press, University of Chicago Press, Abingdon, Eerdmans, etc. Mainstream scholars are those whose works are published/recognized by AAR/SBL and their journals. They are on faculty at places like Harvard, Yale, Vanderbilt, Duke, and the University of Chicago.

Find me a Hebrew Bible scholar at any of these places who has published anything that indicates that Genesis represents a round-earth cosmology.

Joshua

 

You are changing the goalposts there, Joshua. I was specifically referring to Smith's comment about raqia. I don't make claims like that when I have not researched something myself. In the meantime, the point is NOT that the Bible presents a spherical earth (although it does indicate round by the term "circle of the earth"), but that it most certainly does NOT claim the earth is flat!

Here is some of the 'raqia' material, a great deal of which is on the earlier parts of the creation/evolution forum and which BWSmith participated in there. So he knows what the research says. It has already been presented to him. And for him to present his same old same old here without even a nod to what has been already discussed with him is not an honest move.

=============

1. from a private email from one scholar:

The Hebrew word "raqia" was translated into Greek by LXX as "stereoma", by Jerome into Latin as "firmamentum", and into English by the KJV as "firmament." All of these give the meaning of hardness, and while LXX may have been closer in time to the writing, that is no guarantee that they got it correctly. It is very likely that the LXX was heavily influenced by Greek thought of the day, which held that the celestial sphere was a transparent crystaline surface. If that is the case, then all of these other translations followed a false lead.
The word "raqia" means to beat out as one would a metal such as gold. The question is, does this raqia mean the object of the action (thus being hard like metal), or does it mean the action itself (stretched out, as in Psalm 104:2)? Alternately, it could mean that the raqia was like the object, that is it was stretched out, not that it was hard. Modern translations have generally gone with the latter meanings rather than the former, which I think is correct. Many assume that the early translations were less subject to current ideas than we are, but I don't see how that could possibly be true.

--------------------

2. from a friend of mine, Jon Covey:

I just did a superficial seach of "firmament" using Logos Bible software (a very useful tool). If fuller search would be more revealing, but further down I noticed that the flying creatures had to fly in the firmament, so it couldn't mean "solid." How about the idea that the firmament is substantive, of substance that is malleable or moldable, yielding, yet a zone of separation?The Abridged Brown, Driver, Briggs Hebrew-English Lexicon: raqia, n.m. extended surface, (solid) expanse (as if beaten out) — firmamentum 1. (flat) expanse (as if of ice), as base, support. 2. the vault of heaven, or ‘firmament,’ regarded by Hebrews as solid, and supporting ‘waters’ above it.

Richard Whitaker, Editor, The Abridged Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew-English Lexicon of the Old Testament, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1997.

&gt;From Wycliffe:
A firmament (expanse) in the midst of the waters. The Hebrew word raquia represents something beaten out or pressed out so as to extend over a wide surface. The writer suggests here an expanse above the earth, holding vast reservoirs of water to be released for rain.

Charles F. Pfeiffer, The Wycliffe Bible Commentary, Old Testament, (Chicago: Moody Press) 1962.

&gt;From Vine's:
FIRMAMENT (7549)
While this English word is derived from the Latin firmamentum which signifies firmness or strengthening (like the Greek stereo|-ma), the Hebrew word, raµqéÆaÔ, has no such meaning, but denoted the “expanse,” that which is stretched out. Certainly the sky was not regarded as a hard vaut in which the heavenly orbs were fixed. What is called the “firmament” in Genesis 1 from verses 6—20; Psalms 19:1; 150:1; Ezekiel 1:22—26; 10:1; and Daniel 12:3, finds an explanatory description in Psalms 104:2, “who stretchest out the heavens
like a curtain,” and similarly in Isaiah 40:22, with the addition, “and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in.”
The whole expanse includes the atmosphere encircling the earth, the locality of the clouds (Genesis 1 :6, 7, 20), and the region in which are the sun, moon and stars (verse 14). Language connected with it is often metaphorical and phenomenal; see, for example, Genesis 7:11, “windows of heaven” (compare Isaiah 24:18); Psalms 78:23, “the doors of heaven.” The figurative language in Job 37:18, “Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?” does not convey the idea of solidity, but that of clearness, transparency and brightness; compare Exodus 24:10, “the body of heaven [that is, the very heaven itself] in [its] clearness.” The transparent character of the firmament is indicated in that part of Ezekiel’s vision recorded in 1:26.
There is therefore nothing in the language of the original to suggest that the writers were influenced by the imaginative ideas of heathen nations.

Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981.

&gt;From Matthew Henry:
Verses 6-8
We have here an account of the second day’s work, the creation of the firmament, in which observe, 1. The command of God concerning it: Let there be a firmament, an expansion, so the Hebrew word signifies, like a sheet spread, or a curtain drawn out. This includes all that is visible above the earth, between it and the third heavens: the air, its higher, middle, and lower, regions—the celestial globe, and all the spheres and orbs of light above: it reaches as high as the place where the stars are fixed, for that is called here the firmament of heaven (v. 14, 15), and as low as the place where the birds fly, for that also is called the firmament of heaven, v. 20. When God had made the light, he appointed the air to be the receptacle and vehicle of its beams, and to be as a medium of communication between the invisible and the
visible world; for, though between heaven and earth there is an inconceivable distance, yet there is not an impassable gulf, as there is between heaven and hell. This firmament is not a wall of partition, but a way of intercourse. See Job 26:7; 37:18; Ps. 104:3; Amos 9:6. 2. The creation of it. Lest it should seem as if God had only commanded it to be done, and some one else had done it, he adds, And God made the firmament. What God requires of us he himself works in us, or it is not done. He that commands faith, holiness, and love, creates them by the power of his grace going along with his word, that he may have all the praise. Lord, give what thou commandest, and then command what thou pleasest. The firmament is said to be the work of God’s fingers, Ps. 8:3. Though the vastness of its extent declares it to be the work of his
arm stretched out, yet the admirable fineness of its constitution shows that it is a curious piece of art, the work of his fingers. 3. The use and design of it—to divide the waters from the waters, that is, to distinguish between the waters that are wrapped up in the clouds and those that cover the sea, the waters in the air and those in the earth. See the difference between these two carefully observed, Deu. 11:10, 11, where Canaan is upon this account preferred to Egypt, that Egypt was moistened and made fruitful with the waters that are under the firmament, but Canaan with waters from above, out of the firmament, even the dew of heaven, which tarrieth not for the sons of men, Mic. 5:7. God has, in the firmament of his power, chambers, store-chambers, whence he watereth the earth, Ps. 14:13; 65:9, 10. He has also treasures, or
magazines, of snow and hail, which he hath reserved against the day of battle and war, Job 38:22, 23. O what a great God is he who has thus provided for the comfort of all that serve him and the confusion of all that hate him! It is good having him our friend, and bad having him our enemy. 4. The naming of it: He called the firmament heaven. It is the visible heaven, the pavement of the holy city; above the firmament God is said to have his throne (Eze. 1:26), for he has prepared it in the heavens; the heavens therefore are said to rule, Dan. 4:26. Is not God in the height of heaven? Job 22:12. Yes, he is, and we should be led by the contemplation of the heavens that are in our eye to consider our Father who is in heaven. The height of the heavens should remind us of God’s supremacy and the infinite distance there is between us
and him; the brightness of the heavens and their purity should remind us of his glory, and majesty, and perfect holiness; the vastness of the heavens, their encompassing of the earth, and the influence they have upon it, should remind us of his immensity and universal providence.

Henry, Matthew, Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Bible, (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers) 1997.

&gt;From Enhanced Strong's:
7549 raqiya` { raw-kee’-ah}

from 7554; TWOT - 2217a; n m

AV - firmament 17; 17

GK - 8385 { ['yqir;
1) extended surface (solid), expanse, firmament
1a) expanse (flat as base, support)
1b) firmament (of vault of heaven supporting waters above)
1b1) considered by Hebrews as solid and supporting ‘waters’ above
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.

4733 stereoma { ster-eh’-o-mah}

from 4732; TDNT - 7:609,1077; n n

AV - stedfastness 1; 1

GK - 5106 { stereoma }

1) that which has been made firm
1a) the firmament, the arch of the sky, which in early times was thought to be solid
1a1) a fortified place
1b) that which furnishes a foundation
1b1) on which a thing rests firmly, support
1c) firmness, steadfastness
1c1) metaph. in a military sense: solid front
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.

&gt;From Harper's:
firmament, God’s division between cosmic waters on the second day of creation (Gen. 1:6-8), forming the sky. One must here imagine a flat earth and a domed expanse of heavens holding back celestial waters from terrestrial. The Hebrew term raqia suggests a thin sheet of beaten metal (cf. Exod. 39:3; Num. 17:3; Jer. 10:9; also Job 37:18). Similar metaphors for sky are found in Homer and Pindar. Job 26:13 depicts God’s breath as the force that calmed (or ‘spread,’ ‘smoothed’ or ‘carpeted’) the heavens. Luminaries were set in the firmament on the fourth day of creation (Gen. 1:14-19). Rains were believed to fall through sluices or windows in its surface (cf. Gen. 7:11). During the Flood, the upper waters joined with the waters of the primordial deep (Heb. tehom). In more pacific contexts, the firmament, or its pattern of luminaries,
is said to declare the praises of God (Ps. 19:1; cf. 150:1). In Ezekiel’s ‘chariot’ vision, a crystal firmament supports the divine throne (Ezek. 1:22, 25, 26), just as something resembling a pavement of lapis lazuli is said to lie at the feet of Yahweh’s throne in Exod. 24:10. Dan. 12:3 alludes to the ‘radiance’ (Heb. zohar) of the firmament. Rabbinic sources regarded the firmament as the chief source of light for heavenly denizens. See also Creation; Genesis. J.W.R.

Achtemier, Paul J., Th.D., Harper’s Bible Dictionary, (San Francisco: Harper and Row, Publishers, Inc.) 1985.

Harper's doesn't say why one must imagine a flat earth.

Treasury of Scripture Knowledge:
20 Let the waters. 22 2:19 8:17 Ps 104:24,25 148:10 Ac 17:25 moving. or, creeping. 1Ki 4:33 life. Heb. a living soul. 30 Ec 2:21 fowl that may fly. Heb. let fowl fly. This marginal reading is more conformable to the original, and reconciles this passage with ch. 2:19. The word fowl, from the Saxon fleon, to fly, exactly corresponds to the original, which denotes every thing that flies, whether bird or insect. open firmament. Heb. face of the firmament. 7,14
Treasury of Scripture Knowledge

If the birds must fly in the firmament, it cannot be of solid crystal.

&gt;From Philo:
X. (36) The incorporeal world then was already completed, having its seat in the Divine Reason; and the world, perceptible by the external senses, was made on the model of it; and the first portion of it, being also the most excellent of all made by the Creator, was the heaven, which he truly called the firmament, as being corporeal; for the body is by nature firm, inasmuch as it is divisible into three parts; and what other idea of solidity and of body can there be, except that it is something which may be measured in every direction? therefore he, very naturally contrasting that which was perceptible to the external senses, and corporeal with that which was perceptible only by the intellect and incorporeal, called this the firmament. (37) Immediately afterwards he, with great propriety and entire correctness, called it the
heaven, either because it was already the boundary of everything, or because it was the first of all visible things which was created; and after its second rising he called the time day, referring the entire space and measure of a day to the heaven, on account of its dignity and honour among the things perceptible to the external senses.
Philo Judaeus, The Works of Philo, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems) 1997.

&gt;From Josephus:
CHAPTER 1

THE CONSTITUTION OF THE WORLD, AND THE DISPOSITION OF THE ELEMENTS

1. (27) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth; but when the earth did not come into sight, but was covered with thick darkness, and a wind moved upon its surface, God commanded that there should be light; (28) and when that was made, he considered the whole mass, and separated the light and the darkness; and the name he gave to one was Night, and the other he called Day; and he named the beginning of light and the time of rest, the Evening and the Morning; (29) and this was indeed the first day: but Moses said it was one day,—the cause of which I am able to give even now; but because I have promised to give such reasons for all things in a treatise by itself, I shall put off its exposition till that time. (30) After this, on the second day, he placed the heaven over the whole world, and separated it from the
other parts; and he determined it should stand by itself. He also placed a crystalline [firmament] round it, and put it together in a manner agreeable to the earth, and fitted it for giving moisture and rain, and for affording the advantage of dews. (31) On the third day he appointed the dry land to appear, with the sea itself round about it; and on the very same day he made the plants and the seeds to spring out of the earth. On the fourth day he adorned the heaven with the sun, the moon, and the other stars; and appointed them their motions and courses, that the vicissitudes of the seasons might be clearly signified. (32) And on the fifth day he produced the living creatures, both those that swim and those that fly; the former in the sea, the latter in the air: he also sorted them as to society and mixture, for procreation,
and that their kinds might increase and multiply. On the sixth day he created the four-footed beasts, and made them male and female: on the same day he also formed man. (33) Accordingly Moses says, That in just six days the world and all that is therein was made; and that the seventh day was a rest, and a release from the labor of such operations;—whence it is that we celebrate a rest from our labors on that day, and call it the Sabbath; which word denotes rest in the Hebrew tongue.
2. (34) Moreover, Moses, after the seventh day was over, begins to talk philosophically; and concerning the formation of man, says thus: That God took dust from the ground, and formed man, and inserted in him a spirit and a soul. This man was called Adam, which in the Hebrew tongue signifies one that is red, because he was formed out of red earth, compounded together; for of that kind is virgin and true earth. (35) God also presented the living creatures, when he had made them, according to their kinds, both male and female, to Adam, who gave them those names by which they are still called. But when he saw that Adam had no female companion, no society, for there was no such created, and that he wondered at the other animals which were male and female, he laid him asleep, and took away one of his ribs, and out of it formed the
woman; (36) whereupon Adam knew her when she was brought to him, and acknowledged that she was made out of himself. Now a woman is called in the Hebrew tongue Issa; but the name of this woman was Eve, which signifies the mother of all living.
Josephus, Flavius, The Works of Josephus, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1997.

------------------

3. And from my own research, the following (which, interestingly, I had already put into UBB code and this is the only board I have been on which uses it -- meaning I already posted all of this for BW before):

FIRMAMENT

First of all, from the Strong's Concordance, as requested:

7549 -- raqiya, from 7554; prop. an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky: -- firmament.

7554 -- raqa; a prim. root; to pound the earth (as a sign of passion); by analogy to expand (by hammering); by impl. to overlay (with thin sheets of metal): -- beat, make broad, spread abroad (forth, over, out, into plates), stamp, stretch.

Now, the word you are referring to is the first, or raqiya. The fact that it comes from a root that sometimes can mean to beat or pound out like metal does not mean it is either a direct meaning from the root or that anything solid, let alone metal, is involved. Even the root word only sometimes refers to metal. Let me give you an idea of how words can differ from their roots: the Greek root "log" or "logue" means "word, speech, reason." From this root we get both "logical" and "prologue." But you and I both know that not all prologues are logical! Careful attention needs to be paid to the meaning of the word itself and not just the root it is from, as well as to the context, or the way in which the word it used. Raqiya simply means "expanse."

Checking the same word in the NIV Concordance, which is translated simply "expanse," we find the word is used 17 times in the OT, of which 13 times it is translated as "expanse," 2 times as "heavens," 1 time as "it," and one time as "skies."

So now let's look at those 17 times. I will give both the NIV and KJV renderings of the verses and, when appropriate for meaning, put the verses in context.

1) Genesis 1:6-8 (the first four times)

NIV: And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening and there was morning -- the second day.

KJV:And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament , and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament, and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

2)Genesis 1:14-1:20 (the next four times)

NIV: And God said, "Let there by lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. God made two great lights -- the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening and there was morning -- the fourth day.

And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky."

KJV: And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; he [made] the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creatures that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

3) Ezekiel 1:22-28 (the next four times)

NIV: Spread out above the heads of the living creatures was what looked like an expanse , sparkling like ice, and awesome. Under the expanse their wings were stretched out one toward the other, and each had two wings covering its body. When the creatures moved, I heard the sound of their wings, like the roar of rushing waters, like the voice of the Almighty, like the tumult of an army. When they stood still, they lowered their wings.

Then there came a voice from above the expanse over their heads as they stood with lowered wings. Above the expanse over their heads was what looked like a throne of sapphire, and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man. I saw that from what appeared to be his waist up he looked like glowing metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and hbrilliant light surrounded him. Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him.

This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. When I saw it, I fell facedown, and I heard the voice of one speaking.

KJV: And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above. And under the firmament were their wings straight, the one toward the other: every one had two, which covered on this side, and every one had two which covered on theat side, their bodies. And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood, they let down their wings.

And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings. And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it. And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire around about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward. I saw as it were the appearance of fire and it had brightness round about it.
As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about.

This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face and I heard a voice of one that spake.

4) Ezekiel 10:1 --

NIV: I looked, and I saw the likeness of a throne of sapphire above the expanse that was over the heads of the cherubim.

KJV: Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire throne, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne.

5) Psalm 150:1 --

NIV: Praise the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty heavens .

KJV: Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.

6) Daniel 12:3 --

NIV: &lt;i&gt;Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens , and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.[/I]

KJV: And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament ; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

7) Psalm 19:1

NIV: The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

KJV: The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

That's it. That is every time raqiya is used in the Old Testament. The fact that the birds fly in it in Genesis and that Ezekiel can see through it in the book of his name does not indicate something solid.

Just as a bit more on the idea of expanse, however, being the meaning of the word, the following verses in Isaiah came to my mind (all are from the NIV):

40:12 --
Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, or with the breadth of his hand marked off the heavens?
Who has held the dust of the earth in a basket, or weighed the mountains on scales and the hills in a balance?

40:22 --
He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

42:5 --
This is what God the LORD says --
he who created the heavens and stretched them out,
who spread out the earth and all that comes out of it,
who gives breath to its people and life to those who walk on it:

44:24 --
This is what the LORD says --
your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb:
"I am the LORD, who has made all things,
who alone stretched out the heavens
who spread out the earth by myself,

45:12 --
It is I who made the earth and created mankind upon it.
My own hands stretched out the heavens;
I marshaled their starry hosts.

Just as a point of interest, the word raqa is translated here as "spread out" where you see those words. I think it is clearly being used, here, as a synonym, in typical parallel phrasing, for the Hebrew word natah -- which has over a column of possible meanings, including stretched out, turn, pitched, pay attention, deprive, deny, pervert, spread out, turn aside, extended, parted.....and the list goes on.

I do have to say that my Strongs Concordance (1984; Thomas Nelson Publishers) makes no mention of a solid dome anywhere in the definitions of those words.

A good net-friend, who goes by his initials of (believe it or not!) 'sos', saw my response to _______ one time and was kind enough to add the following to it:

Is that solid enough for you, Joshua?

 

This is not the issue I presented. The interesting thing about the schools you mention is that several of them gained their status before the late 1800's. Said another way, they were alot more like us and alot less like you when they got their reputations.

But as to your assertion, these theology schools which are notoriously liberal would be expected to agree with you and BW. They adopted higher criticism as a principle long ago... the purge is complete now.

 

Here's my reply: (Wow, look at this post. It's really, really long!)

The Flat-Earth Bible
© 1987, 1995 by Robert J. Schadewald
Reprinted from The Bulletin of the Tychonian Society #44 (July 1987)

When I first became interested in the flat-earthers in the early 1970s, I was surprised to learn that flat-earthism in the English-speaking world is and always has been entirely based upon the Bible. I have since assembled and read an extensive collection of flat-earth literature. The Biblical arguments for flat-earthism that follow come mainly from my reading of flat-earth literature, augmented by my own reading of the Bible.

Except among Biblical inerrantists, it is generally agreed that the Bible describes an immovable earth. At the 1984 National Bible-Science Conference in Cleveland, geocentrist James N. Hanson told me there are hundreds of scriptures that suggest the earth is immovable. I suspect some must be a bit vague, but here are a few obvious texts:

1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”

Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”

Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”

Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”

Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...”
Suffice to say that the earth envisioned by flat-earthers is as immovable as any geocentrist could desire. Most (perhaps all) scriptures commonly cited by geocentrists have also been cited by flat-earthers. The flat-earth view is geocentricity with further restrictions.

Like geocentrists, flat-earth advocates often give long lists of texts. Samuel Birley Rowbotham, founder of the modern flat-earth movement, cited 76 scriptures in the last chapter of his monumental second edition of Earth not a Globe. Apostle Anton Darms, assistant to the Reverend Wilbur Glenn Voliva, America's best known flat-earther, compiled 50 questions about the creation and the shape of the earth, bolstering his answers with up to 20 scriptures each. Rather than presenting an exhaustive compendium of flat-earth scriptures, I focus on those which seem to me the strongest. I also comment on some attempts to find the earth's sphericity in the Bible.

Scriptural quotes, unless otherwise noted, are from the New English Bible. Hebrew and Greek translations are from Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. The Biblical cosmology is never explicitly stated, so it must be pieced together from scattered passages. The Bible is a composite work, so there is no a priori reason why the cosmology assumed by its various writers should be relatively consistent, but it is. The Bible is, from Genesis to Revelation, a flat-earth book.

This is hardly surprising. As neighbors, the ancient Hebrews had the Egyptians to the southwest and the Babylonians to the northeast. Both civilizations had flat-earth cosmologies. The Biblical cosmology closely parallels the Sumero-Babylonian cosmology, and it may also draw upon Egyptian cosmology.

The Babylonian universe was shaped like a modern domed stadium. The Babylonians considered the earth essentially flat, with a continental mass surrounded by ocean. The vault of the sky was a physical object resting upon the ocean's waters (and perhaps also upon pillars). Sweet (salt-free) waters below the Earth sometimes manifest themselves as springs. The Egyptian universe was also enclosed, but it was rectangular instead of round. Indeed, it was shaped much like an old-fashioned steamer trunk. (The Egyptians pictured the goddess Nut stretched across the sky as the enclosing dome.) What was the Hebrew view of the universe?

The Order of Creation

The Genesis creation story provides the first key to the Hebrew cosmology. The order of creation makes no sense from a conventional perspective but is perfectly logical from a flat-earth viewpoint. The earth was created on the first day, and it was “without form and void (Genesis 1:2).” On the second day, a vault the “firmament” of the King James version was created to divide the waters, some being above and some below the vault. Only on the fourth day were the sun, moon, and stars created, and they were placed “in” (not “above”) the vault.

The Vault of Heaven

The vault of heaven is a crucial concept. The word “firmament” appears in the King James version of the Old Testament 17 times, and in each case it is translated from the Hebrew word raqiya, which meant the visible vault of the sky. The word raqiya comes from riqqua, meaning “beaten out.” In ancient times, brass objects were either cast in the form required or beaten into shape on an anvil. A good craftsman could beat a lump of cast brass into a thin bowl. Thus, Elihu asks Job, “Can you beat out [raqa] the vault of the skies, as he does, hard as a mirror of cast metal (Job 37:18)?”

Elihu's question shows that the Hebrews considered the vault of heaven a solid, physical object. Such a large dome would be a tremendous feat of engineering. The Hebrews (and supposedly Yahweh Himself) considered it exactly that, and this point is hammered home by five scriptures:

Job 9:8, “...who by himself spread out the heavens [shamayim]...”

Psalm 19:1, “The heavens [shamayim] tell out the glory of God, the vault of heaven [raqiya] reveals his handiwork.”

Psalm 102:25, “...the heavens [shamayim] were thy handiwork.”

Isaiah 45:12, “I, with my own hands, stretched out the heavens [shamayim] and caused all their host to shine...”

Isaiah 48:13, “...with my right hand I formed the expanse of the sky [shamayim]...”
If these verses are about a mere illusion of a vault, they are surely much ado about nothing. Shamayim comes from shameh, a root meaning to be lofty. It literally means the sky. Other passages complete the picture of the sky as a lofty, physical dome. God “sits throned on the vaulted roof of earth [chuwg], whose inhabitants are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the skies [shamayim] like a curtain, he spreads them out like a tent to live in...[Isaiah 40:22].” Chuwg literally means “circle” or “encompassed.” By extension, it can mean roundness, as in a rounded dome or vault. Job 22:14 says God “walks to and fro on the vault of heaven [chuwg].” In both verses, the use of chuwg implies a physical object, on which one can sit and walk. Likewise, the context in both cases requires elevation. In Isaiah, the elevation causes the people below to look small as grasshoppers. In Job, God's eyes must penetrate the clouds to view the doings of humans below. Elevation is also implied by Job 22:12: “Surely God is at the zenith of the heavens [shamayim] and looks down on all the stars, high as they are.”

This picture of the cosmos is reinforced by Ezekiel's vision. The Hebrew word raqiya appears five times in Ezekiel, four times in Ezekiel 1:22-26 and once in Ezekiel 10:1. In each case the context requires a literal vault or dome. The vault appears above the “living creatures” and glitters “like a sheet of ice.” Above the vault is a throne of sapphire (or lapis lazuli). Seated on the throne is “a form in human likeness,” which is radiant and “like the appearance of the glory of the Lord.” In short, Ezekiel saw a vision of God sitting throned on the vault of heaven, as described in Isaiah 40:22.

The Shape of the Earth

Disregarding the dome, the essential flatness of the earth's surface is required by verses like Daniel 4:10-11. In Daniel, the king “saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth...reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds.” If the earth were flat, a sufficiently tall tree would be visible to “the earth's farthest bounds,” but this is impossible on a spherical earth. Likewise, in describing the temptation of Jesus by Satan, Matthew 4:8 says, “Once again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world [cosmos] in their glory.” Obviously, this would be possible only if the earth were flat. The same is true of Revelation 1:7: “Behold, he is coming with the clouds! Every eye shall see him...”

The Celestial Bodies

The Hebrews considered the celestial bodies relatively small. The Genesis creation story indicates the size and importance of the earth relative to the celestial bodies in two ways, first by their order of creation, and second by their positional relationships. They had to be small to fit inside the vault of heaven. Small size is also implied by Joshua 10:12, which says that the sun stood still “in Gibeon” and the moon “in the Vale of Aijalon.”

Further, the Bible frequently presents celestial bodies as exotic living beings. For example, “In them [the heavens], a tent is fixed for the sun, who comes out like a bridegroom from his wedding canopy, rejoicing like a strong man to run his race. His rising is at one end of the heavens, his circuit touches their farthest ends; and nothing is hidden from his heat (Psalm 19:4-6).” The stars are anthropomorphic demigods. When the earth's cornerstone was laid “the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted aloud (Job 38:7).” The morning star is censured for trying to set his throne above that of other stars:

You thought in your own mind, I will scale the heavens; I will set my throne high above the stars of God, I will sit on the mountain where the gods meet in the far recesses of the north. I will rise high above the cloud-banks and make myself like the most high (Isaiah 14:13-14).
Deuteronomy 4:15-19 recognizes the god-like status of stars, noting that they were created for other peoples to worship.

Stars can fall from the skies according to Daniel 8:10 and Matthew 24:29. The same idea is found in the following extracts from Revelation 6:13-16:

...the stars in the sky fell to the earth, like figs shaken down by a gale; the sky vanished, as a scroll is rolled up...they called out to the mountains and the crags, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One who sits on the throne...”
This is consistent with the Hebrew cosmology previously described, but it is ludicrous in the light of modern astronomy. If one star let alone all the stars in the sky “fell” on the earth, no one would be hollering from any mountain or crag. The writer considered the stars small objects, all of which could fall to the earth without eradicating human life. He also viewed the sky as a physical object. The stars are inside the sky, and they fall before the sky opens. When it is whisked away, it reveals the One throned above (see Isaiah 40:22).

Weaker Arguments

Flat-earthers also offer some scriptural arguments that are (in my view) weak, ambiguous, erroneous, or irrelevant. (Ironically, it is these that apologists for sphericity usually choose to deal with in their rebuttals to the flat-earthers!) The weak and ambiguous arguments can help support a cumulative picture but are insufficient on their own.

One of the weaker scriptural arguments is that the sky literally has openings (windows) which God can open to let the waters above fall to the surface as rain (see Genesis 7:11, Genesis 8:2, Isaiah 24:18-19, Jeremiah 51:15-16, and Malachi 3:10). While the idea and scriptures are certainly consistent with the flat-earth cosmology, they could (for instance) refer to openings in a spherical shell surrounding a spherical earth. The same applies to the Tower of Babel story in Genesis 11:4, often cited as an attempt to literally reach the heavens.

Likewise, flat-earthers frequently cite the numerous Old Testament verses referring to the earth's foundations (see 2 Samuel 22:16, Job 38:4, Psalm 18:15, Proverbs 8:29, Isaiah 24:18, and numerous others). Foundations are, however, fairly well-covered by geocentricity. No one would argue for a flat-earth solely on the basis of “foundations” quotes.

Another less-than-conclusive argument that the Bible is a flat-earth book is its references to the earth's “corners.” For example, “After this, I saw four angels stationed at the four corners [gonia] of the earth holding back the four winds...(Revelation 7:1).” Spherical apologists are quick to point out that the Greek gonia can refer to regions rather than points. Most translations of the Bible opt for points (the King James version says “on the corners of the earth”), implying that the writer viewed the habitable earth as a four-cornered area. (This was indeed the way many early churchmen interpreted it [Cosmas, 548]. The modern flat-earth model doesn't have literal corners.) The corners could, however, be those regions at the ends of the earth referred to by Jeremiah: “[H]e brings up the mist from the ends of the earth, he opens rifts for the rain and brings the wind out of his storehouses (Jeremiah 51:16).” We shall return to the ends of the earth.

The Biblical view of the universe is relatively clear and consistent. Biblical statements bearing on cosmology are (with one possible exception yet to be discussed) consistent with the well-known flat-earth cosmologies of the ancient Near East, but they are often flatly con- tradicted by modern science. How do spherical apologists reply?

Spherical Apologetics

Those who claim Biblical support for a spherical earth typically ignore this forest of consistency and focus on one or two aberrant trees. Some take refuge in audacity. Henry Morris, president of the Institute for Creation Research, cites one of the more explicitly flat-earth verses in the Old Testament Isaiah 40:22, the “grasshopper” verse quoted earlier as evidence for the sphericity of the earth. Quoting the King James version “he sitteth upon the circle of the earth” Morris ignores the context and the grasshoppers and claims “circle” should read “sphericity” or “roundness” [1956, 8]. This divide and conquer strategy is poor scholarship and worse logic.

Heroic efforts have been made by apologists to explain away the firmament, which encloses the celestial bodies, has waters above it, and is a masterpiece proving the Creator's craftsmanship. The late Harold W. Armstrong argued that it is empty Newtonian space, and that the “waters above” still surround the edges of the universe, though perhaps not in liquid form [1979, 26]. This simply ignores difficulties and invents evidence. Gerardus Bouw tried to identify the firmament as a mathematical plenum [1987]. In my view, it is a grave error to reinterpret ancient documents to force their authors to speak with modern voices. Gary Zukov [1979] and Fritjof Capra [1976], for instance, read modern physics into the teachings of eastern mysticism. I consider all such attempts equally suspect.

Perhaps the scripture most frequently offered as evidence of the earth's sphericity is the King James version of Job 26:7, “He stretcheth out the north [tsaphon] over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing [beliymah].” (The New English Bible translates it, “God spreads the canopy of the sky over chaos and suspends earth in the void.”) It is not clear what this means. The Hebrew tsaphon literally meant hidden or dark, and it was used in reference to the northern regions. Beliymah literally means “nothing.” That would contradict all of the scriptures which say the earth rests on foundations, but that interpretation is not necessary. We will return to Job 26:7 later.

Speaking of foundations, Gerardus Bouw, in an undated paper entitled “The Form of the Earth,” cites a barrage of scriptures about the foundations of the earth or world as evidence for sphericity. All (or nearly all) of these verses have traditionally been used by flat-earthers to prove the earth flat. If one views the earth as an architectural structure with floor, curtain walls, and a roof, it is natural to assume it has foundations (and, I might add, a cornerstone). Why a sphere would have foundations escapes me. Bouw's argument that these scriptures refer to the earth's core seems strained at best. Also strained is Bouw's interpretation of “the ends of the earth” as the points most distant from Jerusalem, and his identification of the Chukchi Peninsula of the Soviet Union, Alaska, Cape Horn, and the southeastern tip of Australia as the “four corners” of the earth.

Bouw's most interesting argument for sphericity is based on the gospel of Luke. He compares the King James version of Luke 17:31 and 17:34. The former says “In that day, he which shall be upon the house top...” and the latter “in that night there shall be two men in one bed...” (italics added). Bouw then cites 1 Corinthians 15:52 to argue that the events are simultaneous, claiming simultaneity is possible only on a spherical earth. First of all, the latter claim is wrong. The modern (though not the ancient) flat-earth model has day and night occurring simultaneously at different points on earth. Second, the Greek hemera was used much like the English “day.” It could mean the daylight hours, a 24-hour day, or (figuratively) an epoch of unspecified length. Third, Luke appears to have been writing figuratively, and citing Paul to prove otherwise begs the question.

One more spherical argument deserves notice. The 1985 National Creation Conference in Cleveland ended with a formal debate on the relative merits of heliocentricity and geocentricity. Richard Niessen of Christian Heritage College, defending the Copernican view, remarked that the Bible teaches a spherical earth because it treats north and south as absolutes, but east and west as relative. As evidence of the latter, he cited Psalm 103:12 which says, “As far as the east is from the west, so far has he put our offences from us.” Again, the modern flat-earth model holds that north and south are absolutes, but east and west are relative. In the ancient flat-earth model, however, east and west were about as far apart as you could get, which seems to be the image Psalm 103:12 was intended to invoke.

In my view, all arguments to prove the Bible teaches a spherical earth are weak if not wrong- headed. On the other hand, the flat-earth cosmology previously described is historically consistent and requires none of the special pleading apparently necessary to harmonize the Bible with sphericity.

The Book of Enoch

The cosmology previously described is derived from the Bible itself, following the 19th century flat-earthers. Some of the evidence is more ambiguous than we would like. Ambiguities in ancient documents can often be elucidated by consulting contemporary docu- ments. The most important ancient document describing Hebrew cosmology is 1 Enoch (sometimes called the Ethiopic Book of Enoch), one of those long, disjointed, scissors and paste jobs beloved by ancient scribes. For a dozen or so centuries, European scholars knew 1 Enoch only from numerous passages preserved in the patristic literature. In 1773, the Scottish adventurer James Bruce found complete copies in Ethiopia.

Numerous manuscripts of 1 Enoch have since been found in Ethiopian monasteries. Turn of the century scholars concluded that parts of the book are pre-Maccabean, and most (perhaps all) of it was composed by 100 B.C. [Charles, 1913]. These conclusions were largely vindicated when numerous fragments of 1 Enoch were found among the so-called Dead Sea Scrolls at Qumran. There have been two major English translations of 1 Enoch, the 1913 translation of R. H. Charles and the 1983 translation by E. Isaac. All of the quotations that follow come from the newer translation.

The importance of 1 Enoch is poorly appreciated outside the scholarly community. Comparison of its text with New Testament books reveals that many Enochian doctrines were taken over by early Christians. E. Isaac writes:

There is little doubt that 1 Enoch was influential in molding New Testament doctrines concerning the nature of the Messiah, the Son of Man, the messianic kingdom, demonology, the future, resurrection, final judgment, the whole eschatological theater, and symbolism. No wonder, therefore, that the book was highly regarded by many of the apostolic and Church Fathers [1986, 10].

The cosmos as described in the book of Enoch.
Picture © 1992 by Robert Schadewald.
First Enoch influenced Matthew, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, and several other New Testament books. The punishment of the fallen angels described in 2 Peter seems to come directly from 1 Enoch, as does much of the imagery (or even wording) in Revelation. The Epistle of Jude contains the most dramatic evidence of its influence when it castigates “enemies of religion” as follows:

It was to them that Enoch, the seventh in descent from Adam, directed his prophecy when he said: “I saw the Lord come with his myriads of angels, to bring all men to judgment and to convict all the godless of all the godless deeds they had committed, and of all the defiant words which godless sinners had spoken against him (Jude 14- 15).”
The inner quote, 1 Enoch 1:9, is found in the original Hebrew on a recently-published Qumran fragment [Shanks, 1987, 18]. By attributing prophecy to Enoch, Jude confers inspired status upon the book.

First Enoch is important for another reason. Unlike the canonical books of the Bible, which (in my view) were never meant to teach science, sections of 1 Enoch were intended to describe the natural world. The narrator sometimes sounds like a 2nd century B.C. Carl Sagan explaining the heavens and earth to the admiring masses. The Enochian cosmology is precise- ly the flat-earth cosmology previously derived from the canonical books.

The Ends of the Earth

The angel Uriel guided Enoch in most of his travels. They made several trips to the ends of the earth, where the dome of heaven came down to the surface. For instance, Enoch says:

I went to the extreme ends of the earth and saw there huge beasts, each different from the other and different birds (also) differing from one another in appearance, beauty, and voice. And to the east of those beasts, I saw the ultimate ends of the earth which rests on the heaven. And the gates of heaven were open, and I saw how the stars of heaven come out...(1 Enoch 33:1-2).
(The sharp-eyed reader will note what I suspect is an editing error in the Isaac translation. The earth resting on the heaven makes no sense. R. H. Charles has “whereon the heaven rests.”)

Again, Enoch says, “I went in the direction of the north, to the extreme ends of the earth, and there at the extreme end of the whole world I saw a great and glorious seat. There (also) I saw three open gates of heaven; when it blows cold, hail, frost, snow, dew, and rain, through each one of the (gates) the winds proceed in the northwesterly direction (1 Enoch 34:1-2).” This accords well with Jeremiah 51:16 which says, “he brings up the mist from the ends of the earth, he opens rifts for the rain and brings the wind out of his storehouses.” In subsequent chapters, Enoch journeys “to the extreme ends of the earth” in the west, south, and east. In each place he saw three more “open gates of heaven.”

There were other things to be seen at the ends of the earth. Earlier, we deferred discussion of the King James version of Job 26:7, “He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.” On several occasions when Enoch and the angel are out beyond the dome of heaven, Enoch comments that there is nothing above or below. For instance, “And I came to an empty place. And I saw (there) neither a heaven above nor an earth below, but a chaotic and terrible place (1 Enoch 21:1-2).” Could this be the kind of nothingness referred to in Job?

An angel also showed Enoch the storerooms of the winds (18:1) and the cornerstone of the earth (18:2).

The Sun and Moon

And what of the sun and moon? Psalm 19:4-6 (quoted earlier) suggest that the sun holes up at the ends of the earth until it is time to rise. Enoch expands upon this idea. In 1 Enoch 41:5, he “saw the storerooms of the sun and the moon, from what place they go out and to which place they return...” Further, “they keep faith one with another: in accordance with an oath they set and they rise.”

Enoch discusses the solar and lunar motions at length, explaining why the apparent azimuths of their rising and setting varies with the season. The explanation, found in the section called “The Book of the Heavenly Luminaries,” begins thus:

This is the first commandment of the luminaries: The sun is a luminary whose egress is an opening of heaven, which is (located) in the direction of the east, and whose ingress is (another) opening of heaven, (located) in the west. I saw six openings through which the sun rises and six openings through which it sets. The moon also rises and sets through the same openings, and they are guided by the stars; together with those whom they lead, they are six in the east and six in the west heaven. All of them (are arranged) one after another in a constant order. There are many windows (both) to the right and the left of these openings. First there goes out the great light whose name is the sun; its roundness is like the roundness of the sky; and it is totally filled with light and heat. The chariot in which it ascends is (driven by) the blowing wind. The sun sets in the sky (in the west) and returns by the northeast in order to go to the east; it is guided so that it shall reach the eastern gate and shine in the face of the sky (1 Enoch 72:2-5).
The openings in the vault of heaven in the east and west are matched to the seasons. On the longest day of the year, the sun rises and sets through the northernmost pair. On the shortest day, it rises and sets through the southernmost pair. The return routes of the sun and moon are outside the dome. Perhaps they rest in their “storerooms” during their time off.

The Stars

Like the Bible, 1 Enoch typically depicts stars as living, anthropomorphic beings. The Sons of the Gods are also dealt with in 1 Enoch, and they are associated with stars. This is consistent with Job 38:7, which says that when the earth's cornerstone was laid “the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted aloud.”

As mentioned earlier, Matthew 24:29 and Revelation 6:13 deal with stars that fall to earth. The image comes from Enoch, but Matthew and John omit some details. In 1 Enoch 88:1, a star that fell from the sky is seized, bound hand and foot, and thrown into an abyss. A few verses later, other stars “whose sexual organs were like the organs of horses” are likewise bound hand and foot and cast “into the pits of the earth (1 Enoch 88:3).”

Most stars just go through their motions night after night. Some stars never set, and Enoch was shown their chariots (1 Enoch 75:8). Stars that do rise and set do so through openings in dome, just like the sun and moon. God, according to 1 Enoch, runs a tight universe, and stars that do not rise on time are thrown into the celestial slammer. Showing Enoch a hellish scene, the angel Uriel explains:

This place is the (ultimate) end of heaven and earth: it is the prison house for the stars and the powers of heaven. And the stars which roll over upon the fire, they are the ones which have transgressed the commandments of God from the beginning of their rising because they did not arrive punctually (1 Enoch 18:14-15).
Enoch was not told the sentence for tardy rising, but Uriel later shows him other stars “which have transgressed the commandments of the Lord,” for which they were doing ten million years of hard time (1 Enoch 21:6). Enoch also was shown an even more terrible place, a fiery prison house where fallen angels were detained forever (1 Enoch 21:10).

1 Enoch deserves study for its cosmology, but there is much more of interest. It profoundly influenced Christian eschatology, and it is necessary reading for anyone trying to understand Hebrew religious thought at the dawn of the Christian era.

Conclusion

From their geographical and historical context, one would expect the ancient Hebrews to have a flat-earth cosmology. Indeed, from the very beginning, ultra-orthodox Christians have been flat-earthers, arguing that to believe otherwise is to deny the literal truth of the Bible. The flat-earth implications of the Bible were rediscovered and popularized by English-speaking Christians in the mid-19th century. Liberal scriptural scholars later derived the same view. Thus, students with remarkably disparate points of view independently concluded that the ancient Hebrews had a flat-earth cosmology, often deriving this view from scripture alone. Their conclusions were dramatically confirmed by the rediscovery of 1 Enoch.

Notes

Armstrong, Harold, 1979. “The Expanding Universe and Creation.” In Repossess the Land (essays and technical papers from the 15th Anniversary Convention of the Bible- Science Association, August 12-15, 1979), pp. 22-27. Minneapolis: Bible-Science Association.

Bouw, Gerardus, n.d. “The Form of the Earth.” Contributions of the Northcoast Bible-Science Association No. 2. Cleveland: Northcoast Bible-Science Association.

Bouw, Gerardus, 1987. “The Firmament.” In Bulletin of the Tychonian Society, n. 43 (April 1987), pp. 11-20.

Capra, Fritjof, 1976. The Tao of Physics. Reprint. New York: Bantam Books, 1977

Charles, R. H., 1913. “Book of Enoch.” In The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament in English, v. 2, edited by R. H. Charles, pp. 163-281. London: Oxford University Press.

Cosmas Indicopleustes, 548. Topographia Christiana. Translated by J. W. McCrindle. London: The Hakluyt Society, 1897.

Darms, Anton, 1930. “The Teaching of the Word of God Regarding the Creation of the World and the Shape of the Earth Fifty Questions and Answers,” Leaves of Healing, v. 66, n. 9 (May 10, 1930), pp. 176-179, 182-184.

Isaac, E., 1983. “1 (Ethiopic Apocalypse of) Enoch.” In The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha: Apocalyptic Literature and Testaments, edited by James H. Charlesworth, pp. 5-89. Garden City, New York: Doubleday & Company, Inc.

Morris, Henry M., 1956. The Bible and Modern Science. Revised edition. Chicago: Moody Press.

Rowbotham, Samuel Birley, 1873. Earth Not a Globe. London: John B. Day. 2nd edition.

Shanks, Hershel, 1987. “Don't Let the Pseudepigrapha Scare You,” Bible Review, v. 3, n. 2 (Summer 1987), pp. 14-19, 34-37.

Strong, James, 1894. The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. Reprint. Nashville: Abington Press, 1978.

Zukov, Gary, 1979. The Dancing Wu Li Masters. New York: William Morrow and Company, Inc.

Wow, I really showed you, didn't I? You ain't seen nothing yet!!!

The Flat-Earth Belief of Bible Writers
Adrian Swindler

All Christian sects recognize the Bible as the primary source of revelation. This compiled material was allegedly inspired by God and written by chosen authors to reveal him and his will to man. The Bible, then, is the foundation of the Christian religion. To Christian fundamentalists who believe in verbal inspiration, the Bible is an infallible foundation. They claim that "the Holy Spirit so dominated and guided the minds and pens of those who wrote (the Bible) as to make their writings free from mistakes of any and all kinds, whether it be mistakes of history or chronology or botany or biology or astronomy, or mistakes as to moral and spiritual truth pertaining to God or man, in time or eternity," (Wilbur F. Tillett, "The Divine Elements in the Bible," The Abingdon Bible Commentary).
Despite the obvious sincerity of those who so view the Bible, the inerrancy doctrine has no basis in fact. That the Bible contains mistakes in every area mentioned by Mr. Till is a truth widely recognized by reputable Bible scholars. One of the most consistent scientific errors that Bible writers made concerned their misconception of the earth's shape. In Psalm 24:2, for example, it was said that "the world and all that is in it belong to the Lord; the earth and all who live on it are his. He built it on the deep waters beneath the earth and laid its foundations in the ocean depths," (GNB).

This passage and others like it in the Bible make no sense until they are interpreted in terms of the ancient Hebrew conception of the world as represented in the graphic illustrations on the following page that were published in the New American Bible and The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible. (Similar ones appear in other Bible dictionaries.) If you will study the graphics and then read the above quotation again, the psalmist's meaning will become quite clear. He thought the earth rested on foundations or pillars that God had set in the ocean depths. Needless to say, modern science knows better.

Here are just a few of the many other passages that prove Bible writers were ignorant of Earth's spherical shape:

Daniel 4:7-8, "I saw a tree of great height at the center of the world. It was large and strong, with its top touching the heavens, and it could be seen from the ends of the earth." This was allegedly an inspired dream, yet it conveys a flat-earth concept, because no matter how tall a tree would be, people on the other side of a spherical earth could not see it.

Matthew 4:8, "The devil took him (Jesus) to a very high mountain and displayed before him all the kingdoms of the world in their magnificence...." The only plausible reason for the "very high mountain" was that the altitude would make it possible to see to the ends of the earth. Only on a flat earth would this be remotely possible, so the New Testament writers were as ignorant as the Old.

In Genesis 11:4, the people wanted to build a tower up to heaven. If you look at the graphics above, you can see their concept of heavenly bodies under the dome, not all that far away. Presumably, the Lord was afraid they would be able to accomplish their plan, so he caused them to speak various languages. This, of course, is not the reason people speak different languages, but nothing is too fantastic for the ignorant to believe.

The following references show that Bible writers thought there was water above a solid dome with floodgates (look at the graphics again) that could be opened to make it rain:

Job 38:22, "Have you entered the storehouse of the snow, and seen the treasury of the hail?" Look at items two and three in the graphic from the Interpreter's Dictionary, and the intended meaning of this statement becomes very clear.

Psalm 104:3, 13, "You stretch the heavens out like a tent, you build your palace on the waters above.... You water the mountains from your palace." Here God dwells in a palace above the waters over the firmament or dome. To water the mountains, he opens the floodgates. Quite unscientific!

Genesis 1:6-7, "Let there be a dome to divide the water and to keep it in two separate places... and it was done. So Godmade a dome, and it separated the water under it from the water above it." So the NAB and The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible are quite correct in their graphic representations of what the Bible writers believed and taught. How many of you readers believe the earth is flat? The Bible teaches it is!

Christian fundamentalists have used various scriptures to try to prove that Bible writers knew the earth was round. Since I have already shown that these writers thought the earth is flat, if some verses actually do teach that it is round, then there is a contradiction in the Bible and the fundamentalists lose anyway.

Job 38:13-14 is sometimes quoted as a round-earth text: "Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place; that it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment." Claim is made that the statement about the earth "turn(ing) as clay to the seal" was a reference to the earth's rotation, but this passage has nothing to do with movement. The word used was haphak, which meant "to convert, to change, or to make clear." It is the same word that was used in Exodus 7 in reference to Aaron's rod turning into a serpent and the waters of Egypt turning to blood, so rather than the word meaning turning in the sense of movement, it meant turning in the sense of changing. The GNB clarifies the meaning in Job 38:14: "Daylight makes the hills and valleys stand out like the folds of a garment, clear as the imprint of a seal on clay." So, far from teaching the revolution of the earth, this was merely a reference to the effects of sunlight in the morning. Notice also that the KJV refers here to "the ends of earth." This would indicate a flat earth, since there are no ends to a globe.

Job 26:7 has also been cited as proof that the writer of this book knew that the earth was a sphere: "He stretcheth out the north over the empty place and hangeth the earth upon nothing." An NAB footnote at this verse says, "The North: used here as a synonym for the firmament, cf. Is. 14:13," (emphasis inserted). Thus, we read, "He stretches out the dome (firmament) over the empty space." In other words, the dome was unsupported in the middle. The reference in Isaiah 14:13 says, "You (King of Babylon) were determined to climb up to heaven and place your throne above the highest stars (see the graphics). You thought you would sit like a king on that mountain in the north where the gods assemble." The "north" was indeed used as a synonym for the heavens or firmament, so the passage was actually speaking of a "mountain in the heavens where the gods assemble."

"He... hangeth the earth upon nothing" simply expressed a Hebrew belief that the flat earth, although supported by pillars, did not rest on the back of Atlas or a turtle or an elephant, as their pagan neighbors believed. In this Job was right but not because he was inspired; otherwise, he wouldn't have said in the same context, "The pillars of the heavens tremble (see the graphics) and are stunned at his thunderous rebuke," (26:11). He thought the thunder was God's voice!

Fundamentalists use Isaiah 40:22 to argue that Earth's rotundity was known to the writer: "It is he (God) that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in." They misunderstand the first half of the verse, which is clarified by the placement of "God's throne" in the NAB graphic, and they avoid the second half. The NAB gives us a proper translation of the verse: "He sits enthroned above the vault (dome) of the earth.... He stretches out the heavens like a veil, spreads them out like a tent to dwell in." See the graphic illustrations again and check the Hebrew concept of firmament as explained in Eerdmans and other reliable Bible dictionaries.

The Hebrews were inspired by nothing more than their political and religious motivations. Thus, being ignorant of scientific facts, they thought the earth was flat, that sick people were possessed by demons, and that essentially everything was caused by either gods or demons. Unfortunately, many people are still just as ignorant.

(Adrian Swindler's address is P. O. Box 695, Elmwood, IL 61529.)

Man, this is one long post! But it proves once and for all, by virtue of its length, that I am right and Helen is wrong on the issue of the shape of the earth from the Hebrews' perspective.

 

Helen,

I'm not sure what point your trying to make with that post. Many of the references are making the exact same points that the source I cited makes - which is to say that the word denotes the solid mass above us which holds back the waters beyond. The ones that do not hold to that position are choosing to define the word by our modern understanding of the region to which it refers.

We can throw sources at each other all day long, and yours will have credibility with your crowd and my sources will have credibility with mine. If this were any field besides theology my sources (university faculty from Ivy League schools) would carry more credibility.

Joshua

 

To my point where I said:
Genesis describes the creation of a flat earth.

Optional says:
Really? Then show me. How would a flat earth contain in totality water without it running off... Also, while Egypt at the time of Moses was the most (supposed) advanced civilization on earth, they were light years behind medically... Whereas Moses was laying down medical laws for the Hebrews that weren't put into practice in this country until the early 1900's... So you really believe these dumb sheepherders looked up in the sky at a full moon and believed the earth was flat? What a stretch!

The Hebrews believed that at the edge of the disc-shaped earth, the firmament was held up by the mountains. The entirety of the earth ended where the base of the firmament touched the earth's surface.

I'm not sure where you get your info from. The Egyptions were quite medically advanced, and it is beleived by some that much of the laws governing cleanliness and kosher practice were seeds planted by Moses being brought up in an Egyptian home. Also note that Moses, being of Egyptian education, would have believed in a flat earth, because that's what the egyptians believed, until Ptolomy, who came a few hundred years after Moses (he's the guy who noticed the shadow length of obelisks being different at different places). But Ptolomy surmised the earth's surface was curved, not necesserily spherical.

If you don't believe me about the Hebrews and their flat earth belief, all you have to do is ask a Rabbi. That's what I did.

Again, one fact remains: Christians and Jews alike interpreted the notion that the earth was flat until about 600 years ago. Am I the only one who remembers Columbus?

[ August 08, 2002, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]

 

I know, but it is important for people to see what they are doing, and I think this thread makes that pretty clear now.

Their arguments can cause a lot of confusion, and I spend time trying to stop that from happening. I was accused of being arrogant or something by Joshua, I think, but I don't know how to meet his 'positive' statements except with positive statements in opposition. I don't like being that way, but strength has to be met by strength.

Like the evolutionists, I am not really talking to them, though. They simply provide the stage on which to present the biblical case and the truth, and as long as I remember to see it that way I can keep going.

God bless.

 

Again, the flat earth thing was a hoax. It was started in the early 1800's in an effort to make the Bible look silly and Christians worse. The Egyptians knew the earth was round -- there are Egyptian hieroglyphs in Australia, for Pete's sake! They were all over the place!

Hapgood's Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings of which I have a very nice copy, documents with copies of maps and other sources that the earth was not only known to be spherical, but that some excellent maps showed that people knew even where Antarctica was back to the last ice age -- which was in the time of Job. The evidence is inescapable if you take the time to check for it instead of just believing that old pre-urban legend.

Oh yeah, about that business of a flat earth, here:
http://www.id.ucsb.edu/fscf/library/RUSSELL/FlatEarth.html

[ August 08, 2002, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: Helen ]

 

there are Egyptian hieroglyphs in Australia

Sorry, that ain't so. The heiroglyphs in Australia that you mentioned differ from the heiroglyphic written language in Egypt. They're generally accepted to be Aboriginal in origin.

But as I said earlier, Egyptians did begin to accept the possibility that the earth's surface was curved, but that was some time after the death of Moses and the writings of the Torah.

I'm not sure why you think the flat earth concept was a hoax of the 1800's. It was a reality of the 1400's. Remember Christipher Columbus? His belief that the earth was round nearly got him kicked out of the Church. Rome would have nothing to do with it! He had to go to Spain just to get his expedition financed.

[ August 08, 2002, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]

 

Helen,

Actually, I accused you of being patronizing. Your posts on biblical literalism (unlike all of your other posts) do seem to me to have an arrogant - "If you don't believe my way you don't really believe the Bible" - tone to them. Since you generally take a much more pastoral approach to other issues, it seems a little surprising.

Interestingly, I think we're posting for the same reasons. You're posting to give people who already have your worldview a (superficially at least) credible argument to cling to. I'm posting so that people who come from my perspective won't think that being baptist means abandoning responsible biblical scholarship.

Joshua
(who's aware that the tone of the above post reflects his biases, but realizes that his intended audience shares those biases)

 

If you want to be informed on the myth that Christians (other then a very few isolated people outside of mainstream Christianity with no following) believed in a flat earth, you should read "Inventing the Flat Earth: Columbus & Modern Historians" by Jeffrey Burton Russell. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/027595904X/qid=1029282489/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-5843755-7710216

He clearly shows with primary source material how this myth, which is uncritically passed on by modern historians like Boorstein, was invented.

The main culprit in the U.S. was Washington Irving, who loved to write fictional histories sometimes using fictional names. He shows how the European inventors were Enlightment writers who wanted to show that there has always been tension between the Bible and science. To do so they invented a myth.

Jeffrey Russell is a professor at the University of California at Santa Barbara. If you read his writings you will see that he is certainly no conservative or fundamentalist.

[ August 13, 2002, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: Will ]

 

I really don't think anyone from Genisis time thought one way or another about the world being flat. I don't think that in any of the old scripture did they ever think that.

Genisis 6:1
Now it came to pass when men began to mutiply on the face of earth.......

Job 2:2

And the Lord said to Satan, "From where do you come from?" So Satan answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it."

I saw no implication that they thought it was flat.

In Exodus through Joshua

The reason for giving the Israelites that paticular land was because it was a center "focal point" that all roads lead to. The Israelites would prosper in riches and in trade and farming. They fled to the mountains making their homes and cities there. At which time God told them He never told them to move to the mountains.

Jonah 1:1

Jonah in his escape from Gods presence, traveled as far as he thought was where God could never find Him. And yet God was with him every inch of the way to Tarshish. Nineveh to Joppa would be traveling down, and then going across the sea to Tarshish.

Still no implication they thought it was flat.

I think what happened in all of this is the Israelites only inhabited the land that God had lead them through. Anything else would have been a dis-respect to God and the congregation of Israel. To be anywhere else would be out of Gods sight. Using the example of Abrahams travels through the Canaan lands, and Moses wandering through the wilderness. All the land that you see and walk on shall belong to your generations. Also Literacy was not the same as now. Most were farmers, and hunters and fishermen, and builders, and the army. Only schooling would have been passing down trades, or feminine chores, or what you learned for sabbath. Unless you were Paegan royality, or of great wealth, then perhaps there was some sort of schooling.

I don't think that the earth being flat would have been any concern for them. I don't think they would have even understood to question it being flat or round. However I do not know where it got started. Perhaps by Spanish kings or Queens to keep countrymen in check and gain power.

 

Oh yeah and I meant to add:

I think this whole thing is wrong. Gods word said Genisis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

In chapter 1 God said all was created in 6 days and He rested on the seventh. The focal point was that God is the Creator! Never did it say ......the heavens and earth were created flat. Matter of fact before God created it, it had no form.

Adding to what God says is wrong. Again I stress weither the world was flat or round and who thought it was or wasn't; is not what should ever be what is concentrated on, or God would have said!

If you accept Jesus as your Saviour...are baptized...the Holy Spirit dwells in you and you in Jesus Christ then you are a child of God. God is your first focal point. You are washed in His blood...(PRAISE GOD FROM WHOM ALL BLESSINGS FLOW!) His body is the Church! Your body is a member of it! Then if you worship God at an Affiliation called baptist church in fellowship with other christians is fine. But being any kind of baptist isn't what saves you. And to anyone who isn't saved and they continue to keep reading this in all the post, will be a major turn off for them. I being saved find it disgusting and saddening. I really thought this web site was more than continuosly stating I'm this kind of baptist or that kind.