Obey Father and Mother even when they are wrong

From the Baltimore Catechism

305. Q. Is prayer necessary to salvation?
A. Prayer is necessary to salvation, and without it no one having the use of reason can be saved.

Is breathing necessary for salvation?

Q. 561. Must we ourselves seek in the Scriptures and traditions for what we are to believe?
A. We ourselves need not seek in the Scriptures and traditions for what we are to believe. God has appointed the Church to be our guide to salvation and we must accept its teaching us our infallible rule of faith.

Q. 562. How do we show that the Holy Scriptures alone could not be our guide to salvation and infallible
rule of faith?
A. We show that the Holy Scripture alone could not be our guide to salvation and infallible rule of faith:

1.(1) Because all men cannot examine or understand the Holy Scripture; but all can listen to the teaching of the Church;
2.(2) Because the New Testament or Christian part of the Scripture was not written at the beginning of the Church's existence, and, therefore, could not have been used as the rule of faith by the first Christians;
3.(3) Because there are many things in the Holy Scripture that cannot be understood without the explanation given by tradition, and hence those who take the Scripture alone for their rule of faith are constantly disputing about its meaning and what they are to believe.

Q. 815. Who are meant by the "ignorant" we are to instruct, and the "doubtful" we are to counsel?
A. By the ignorant we are to instruct and the doubtful we are to counsel, are meant those particularly who are ignorant of the truths of religion and those who are in doubt about matters of faith. We must aid such persons as far as we can to know and believe the truths necessary for salvation.

Q. 997. How do we know that the priests of the Church are the messengers of God?
A. We know that the priests of the Church are the messengers of God, because Christ said to His apostles, and through them to their successors: "As the Father hath sent Me, I also send you"; that is to say, to preach the true
religion, to administer the Sacraments, to offer Sacrifice, and to do all manner of good for the salvation of souls.

It is clear to me that without the Catholic Church no one would be saved.

 

try2understand, if you want to debate about who gaves us the Scriptures and when, or who decided what is Scripture. Go ahead start another thread, I have been down this road so many times, and I will go through with it with you.

Don't make that claim if you can't back it up or you wont debate it!

I'll start with the first question.
When did the Catholic Church give us the Scripture, and when did they decide what was Scripture? (Hint: Council of Trent)

1 Timothy 5:18 "For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward."

Here Paul quotes Luke as Scripture.

2 Peter 3:15 -16 "Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

Here Peter quotes Paul epistles as Scriptures.

So at this point the Church had over half of the NT. There was no "infallible" council to declare what was Scripture.

Please try2understand, start another thread on this. I'll be waiting.

 

Catholic Convert please start another thread on this. The Council of Carthage was not infallible, it was only provinical not ecumenical.

We can continue to discuss this further on another thread.

 

Again to Carson and any other stupid/moron Catholic who is afraid of starting another thread to discuss this topic.
Ecumenism, infallible are words Catholic recognize, not Scipture alone believers in Jesus alone by faith alone people.

Go ahead Carson, start a thread and tells us why we should accept the Apocrapha books.

 

Sacrament of Salvation by John A. Hardon, S.J.

The Catholic Church makes claims about herself that are easily misunderstood, especially in the modern atmosphere of pluralism and ecumenism. Among these claims, the most fundamental is the doctrine of the Church’s necessity for salvation. Not unlike other dogmas of the faith, this one has seen some remarkable development, and the dogmatic progress has been especially marked since the definition of papal infallibility. It seems that as the Church further clarified her own identity as regards the papacy and collegiality, she also deepened (without changing) her self-understanding as the mediator of salvation to mankind.
The NT makes it plain that Christ founded the Church to be a society for the salvation of all men. The ancient Fathers held the unanimous conviction that salvation cannot be achieved outside the Church. St. Ireneus taught that “where the Church is, there is the spirit of God, and where the spirit of God is, there is the Church and all grace”. Origen simply declared, “Outside the Church nobody will be saved.” And the favorite simile in patristic literature for the Church’s absolute need to be saved is the Ark of Noah, outside of which there is no prospect of deliverance from the deluge of sin.
Alongside this strong insistence on the need for belonging to the Church was another Tradition from the earliest times that is less well known. It was understandable that the early Christian writers would emphasize what is part of revelation, that Christ founded “the Catholic Church which alone retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth; this, the home of faith; this, the temple of God.” They were combating defections from Catholic unity and refuting the heresies that divided Christianity in the Mediterranean world and paved the way for the rise of Islam in the seventh century.
But they also had the biblical narrative of the “pagan” Cornelius who, the Acts tells us, was “an upright and God-fearing man” even before baptism. Gradually, therefore, as it became clear that there were “God-fearing” people outside the Christian fold, and that some were deprived of their Catholic heritage without fault on their part, the parallel Tradition arose of considering such people open to salvation, although they were not professed Catholics or even necessarily baptized. Ambrose and Augustine paved the way for making these distinctions. By the twelfth century, it was widely assumed that a person can be saved if some “invincible obstacle stands in the way” of his baptism and entrance into the Church.
Thomas Aquinas restated the constant teaching about the general necessity of the Church. But he also conceded that a person may be saved extra sacramentally by a baptism of desire and therefore without actual membership by reason of his at least implicit desire to the Church.
It would be inaccurate, however, to look upon these two traditions as in opposition. They represent the single mystery of the Church as universal sacrament of salvation, which the Church’s magisterium has explained in such a way that what seems to be a contradiction is really a paradox.
Since the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 defined that “The universal Church of the faithful is one, outside of which no one is saved,” there have been two solemn definitions of the same doctrine, by Pope Boniface VIII in 1302 and at the Council of Florence in 1442. At the Council of Trent, which is commonly looked upon as a symbol of Catholic unwillingness to compromise, the now familiar dogma of baptism by desire was solemnly defined; and it was this Tridentine teaching that supported all subsequent recognition that actual membership in the Church is not required to reach one’s eternal destiny.
At the Second Council of the Vatican, both streams of doctrine were delicately welded into a composite whole:
[The Council] relies on sacred Scripture and Tradition in teaching that this pilgrim Church is necessary for salvation. Christ alone is the mediator of salvation and the way of salvation. He presents himself to us in his Body, which is the Church. When he insisted expressly on the necessity for faith and baptism, he asserted at the same time the necessity for the Church which men would enter by the gateway of baptism. This means that it would be impossible for men to be saved if they refused to enter or to remain in the Catholic Church, unless they were unaware that her foundation by God through Jesus Christ made it a necessity.
Full incorporation in the society of the Church belongs to those who are in possession of the Holy Spirit, accept its order in its entirety with all its established means of salvation, and are united to Christ, who rules it by the agency of the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops, within its visible framework. The bonds of their union are the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government and fellowship. Despite incorporation in the Church, that man is not saved who fails to persevere in charity, and remains in the bosom of the Church “with his body” but not “with his heart.” All the Church’s children must be sure to ascribe their distinguished rank to Christ’s special grace in thought, word and deed, so far from being saved, their judgment will be more severe.”

Using this conciliar doctrine as guide, we see that the Church is (in its way) as indispensable as Christ for man’s salvation. The reason is that, since his ascension and descent of the Spirit, the Church is Christ active on earth performing the salvific work for which he was sent into the world by the Father. Accordingly, the Church is necessary not only as a matter of precept but as a divinely instituted means, provided a person knows that he must use this means to be saved.
Actual incorporation into the Church takes place by baptism of water. Those who are not actually baptized may, nevertheless, be saved through the Church according to their faith in whatever historical revelation they come to know and in their adequate cooperation with the internal graces of the Spirit they receive.
On both counts, however, whoever is saved owes his salvation to the one Catholic Church founded by Christ. It is to this Church alone that Christ entrusted the truths of revelation which have by now, though often dimly, penetrated all the cultures of mankind. It is this Church alone that communicates the merits won for the whole world on the cross.
Those who are privileged to share in the fullness of the Church’s riches of revealed wisdom, sacramental power, divinely assured guidance, and blessings of community life cannot pride themselves on having deserved what they possess. Rather they should humbly recognize their chosen position and gratefully live up to the covenant to which they have been called. Otherwise what began as a sign of God’s special favor on earth may end as a witness to his justice in the life to come.
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From what I believe and what John Hardon says, I will not be saved. Yes it is double talk, but the way John Hardon defines a person who is saved outside the Church is one who doesn't know about the Catholic Church.

Any thoughts.

 

How else can I get through to Catholics?
I tried being nice, and that didn;t work.