Featured Objections answered

Your whole post is based on confusing election to apostolic office with election to eternal life ("as many as thou hast given"). Judas is where your interpretation and position breaks down. He was chosen to the apostolic office but he was not part of those given by father for "eternal life" (Jn. 17:2-3).

Your rationale is completely based upon confusing election to national priviledge, to office, to salvation where it suits you. You admit they are not synonomous and that is proven in the case of Judas, but you don't apply what you acknowledge in John 17 or John 6 where restrict "given" by the Father to "eternal life" (Jn. 17;2-3; 6:36-40) not to the apostolic office or national priviledge. Practice what you preach and you will have to drop your whole view on election.

 

External means in and of themsleves have no INTERNAL IMPACT AT ALL. Your position is the same as Roman Catholic Sacramentalism. The Biblical position is that external means AT BEST when used by God have only an INDIRECT impact upon the internal condition and ONLY when God infuses them with His power but it is He ALONE that operates and applies such INTERNALLY within the heart of man.

This is plainly and necessarily inferred by the words "no man can" and the words of the prophets "no man shall teach his neighbor" when describing what it means to be taught of God. You are turning the texts (John 6:37; 44-45; Isa. 54:13; Jer. 31;33-34) upon their heads and teaching the very exact opposite. These texts plainly and clearly making coming CONDITIONAL upon God first giving and drawing neither of which man can do or are accomplished by any man. That is the plain necessary inference illustrated personally by Christ in regard to Peter:

"flesh and blood HATH NOT REVEALED THIS UNTO THEE but my father which is in heaven"

You are taking this text and explicitly denying the very point Christ is making which is the very same point in John 6:37,44-45; Isa. 54:13; Jer. 31:33-34).

It presumes no such thing. It properly distinguishes the role of external works of men verus the internal work of God and denies that external means or men have any POWER in and of themselves or any DIRECT action within the internal condition of the lost. It properly restricts INTERNAL revelation/teaching to the power of God alone as Jesus plainly makes the same CONTRASTING distinction in his words to Peter "Blessed art thou, Simon barjona for FLESH AND BLOOD HATH NOT REVEALED THIS unto thee, but my Father which is in haven." Read this till you see the CONTRAST rather than your attempt to DENY this contrast. Read this till you understand external means where not denied by Christ EXCEPT in providing the INTERNAL revelation. Read 2 Cor 4:6-7 until you see the CONTRAST between the final four words of verse 7 "and not of us" and the interior revelation described in verse 6.

NEITHER IS IT ONE OR THE OTHER BUT BOTH, but not without the DISTINCTIVE CONTRAST that is cleary being made in all these scriptures between external means and the internal source from which all saving revelation has for its direct and immediate source - God, not the external means.

You do not have a clue what you are talking about. Hyperism denies all use of external means. I believe God has chosen both the persons and the means but what you don't understand is that if the means INHERENTLY contained the power (as your argument demands) to change the internal condition of man then both the power and the glory would be attributed to the means instead of to God. Go back up to the oversized red bold statement above and read it until you grasp what I am saying.

If you are going to try to intepret God's word at least be honest with it. The text does not say anything about them "writing" these things "upon your hearts." That is pure eisegesis. What the text says is that they "are" to be upon their hearts but says nothing about how it gets upon their hearts. To the very same people when God gave the law to them he denied they had such hearts:

Deut. 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

He further told them that such a heart must be GIVEN to them and they do not give themselves such a heart:

Deut. 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

That is why it must be "given unto him" by the Father (Jn. 6:65). That is why no man can come except they are drawn by the Father because only God can write His law (give the desire) upon his heart and NO INSTRUMENTAL MEANS CAN DO THIS (Mt. 16:16-17; "flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto thee"; 2 Cor. 4:6-7 "not of us" Jn. 6:44 "no man can".

It is not a choice between instrumental means and God's direct work upon the heart as both are involved but it is a DISTINCTION between which one DIRECTLY changes the heart.

 

First, it is not a "cross reference" but the inspired interpretation and application of it.

Second, that interpretation contradicts your interpretation. His point is that the law demands constant DOING on YOUR PART if you obtain eternal life by the way of Law. However, Paul interprets this Old Testament passage to show THERE IS NO DOING ON YOUR PART but Christ has COMPLETED ALL DOING or KEEPING OF THE LAW FOR YOU.

Thus, faith does not request you to PARTICIPATE by YOU going up and helping Jesus come down from heaven, or helping him live His life of obedience, or help him resurrect from the grave and ascend back into heaven - NO! He ALREADY ACCOMPLISHED THIS BY HIMSELF. Faith merely RECEIVES what is already placed IN YOUR HEART by God for it is "WITH THE HEART MAN BELIEVES."

Yes, God uses instrumental means to bring the gospel TO men but it is God ALONE who works IN man to give such a heart as Deuteronomy 29:4 plainly and explicitly states. As 2 Cor. 4:6-7 plainly and explicitly states. As Jeremian 31:33-34 plainly and explicitly states. As Romans 10:17 in the Greek text plainly explicilty states ("rhema" Word of COMMAND as in 2 Cor. 4:6). As John 6:37-39 explicitly states "given" BEFORE "come"; As John 6:44-45 explicitly states "no man can come". It is not that any of these passages denies EXTERNAL means to bring the gospel TO the elect but they only deny that it is such EXTERNAL MEANS are what performs the work IN the elect and to confuse them is to teach sacramentalism. That is precisely what you are teaching.

 

What you have just said is not only false but a complete perversion of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Every apostle was called to that office LONG AFTER being recognized as "disicples" through reception of the gopsel and baptism (Lk. 6:12-15). Note the language, "out of his disciples" he chose twelve. No only so but OUT OF THESE SAME DISCIPLES were those who would three years later be called to fill the vacated office of Judas. Judas destroy your salvation/apostle call theory.

You better get a new set of glasses or you need glasses because they were called to follow him as "disicples" LONG BEFORE (Jn. 1:51-74) they were called to be apostles (Mk. 3:12-15; Lk. 6:12-15). Judas destroys your theory as here is a man chosen to be an apostle, called to be an apostle but NEVER drawn by the Father (Jn. 6:64-65) but a "devil" (Jn. 6:70 "IS" present tense) and "son of perdition" - Jn. 17.

We know that at least 500 more "brethren" beyond the 12 were believers in Christ and so "the rest walked away because they were blinded" is false.

Stop playing games! You know very well that Judas destroys your idea that addressing the apostles as chosen does not mean election to office is election to salvation. Judas as chosen to apostleship but is not part of those in John 17:2-3 and so "given" in John 17:2-3 is not the same as being given to be an apostle but that is the very basis of your confused position against my interpretation.

Are you really charging me with the confusion that election to apostleship, election to national priviledge and election to salvation are all one and the same in my mind?????????? I have NEVER believed they were the same and have ALWAYS distinguished them.

However, your intepretation of John 6 and John 17 is based upon confusing passages that deal with DIFFERENT types of election. You are taking passages that deal with "eternal life" and coming to Christ for "eternal life (Jn. 6:35-65; 17:2-3,20) and attempting to pervert them by confusing them iwth national and/or apostolic election. There are others reading our posts and they are not so stupid to realize what you are clearly doing. Your last post argued that very thing that one cannot distinguish election to salvation from election to calling (Office) but here you claim you distinguish them! It can't be both!!

Very clever. You are first assuming your interpretation is the correct understanding of Scripture and then charging me for violating BIBLICAL INTERPETATION based upon YOUR interpretation. How clever, but how utterly deceitful! These passages deal with PERSONAL INDIVDUAL ELECTION TO ETERNAL LIFE and anyone with two eyes in their head can easily, very easily see this as John 6:29-70 deals with coming to Christ in faith for eternal life not for apostolic office or national priviledge as you claim.

Judas completely destroys your interpretation. Judas was chosen to apostleship but was not part of John 17:2-3 or "as many as were given" to him by the Father and thus was not part of those given in John 6:37-39 or those drawn in John 6:44-45 as Judus is directly included in that group of unbelievers whom Jesus knew FROM THE BEGINNING (Jn. 6:64) that ability to come to Christ had not be "given)" by the Father (Jn. 6:65), because at the time Jesus spoke in John 6 Judas "IS" as devil (Jn. 6:70) and contined to be such in John 17 as the "son of perdition) - chosen to be a disicple but not chosen by God to be given to the Son for eternal life (Jn. 17:2-3).

Why don't you try READING IT! John 1:35-51 is their call to follow him as "disciples" but not until Luke 6:12 are they chosen to be apostles and in luke 6 they are chosen OUT OF MORE DISCIPLES who continued to follow Christ with the twelve ALL THE TIME as Luke says in Acts 1:21-22. Anyone, with any amount of common sense can easily see the two are different rather than inseparable as you claim. Two different callings with two different objectives at two different times.

 

You are attempting to restrict to Israel what is GENERALLY true to all who reject the truth at any time, anywhere in any place. Israel does not have one kind of heart and gentiles another kind of heart. There are not one class of unbelievers and another class of unbelievers. What is applicable to Israel in the day of Moses is applicable to Israel in the day of Elijah (Rom. 11:1-7) or ANY OTHER TIME! What is applicable where the sphere of redemptive work is primarily restricted (to Israel between Moses and Christ) is also applicable to where the sphere of redemptive work is primarily resitricted now (Christ and Second coming - among gentile nations). There are not two differen type of sinners, two different type of unbelievers in regard to the condition of their hearts.

However, this is exactly how you are interpreting these passages, whether at the time of Moses, Elijah or Christ to be JEWISH ONLY to a JEWISH KIND OF UNBELIEVING HEART only when the Gentile who is exposed to truth and rejects it IS THE VERY SAME KIND OF HEART.


'

I have NEVER confused election to salvation with election to office or national priviledge except in the imagination of your confused mind. I have ALWAYS intepreted the passage of blinding to the condition of ALL HUMAN BEINGS in ALL AGES who have been exposed to truth but rebell against it. The only difference is that at the time of Christ the one nation one earth guilty of rejecting Scriptures was the only nation given the Scriptures. However, the same is true NOW to Gentiles who have been given the scriptures and reject them.

 

Just think it through! Where had truth been primiarly restricted for the past twelve centuries? Israel! Paul is now speaking to a GENTILE congregation, a public house of God, a temple of God located outside the boundaries of Judah and he is explaining why God has turned from Israel which has been the depository of truth for centuries, and now turning to the Gentiles.

The gentiles also will react the very same way centuries later and God will turn back to Israel. Paul warns the Gentiles of this very thing, rebellion against the truth given them and that when the "fullness of the Gentiles be come in" He will return to Israel and do a final work of redemption toward Israel as a nation, the vast majority as a whole who as INDIVIDUALS will be saved at the coming of Christ.

This "distinction" exists IN EVERY GENERATION from Genesis to Revelation whereever truth is concentrated. There are not TWO DIFFERENT TYPES OF UNBELIEVING HEARTS but only one kind and it is the kind described by the passage you are trying to restrict to a Jewish unbelieving heart.

 

A direct appeal to our Readers

Nobody who can read and understand basic English can deny that John 6:29-70 is about coming to Christ by faith for eternal life. To set forth evidence for this is like trying to deny that white is black, it is so obvious that only a person completely and utterly deceived will deny it.

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60 ¶ Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.


John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


Anyone can read this and clearly see the subject is INDIVIDUAL PERSONAL eternal life due to being given by the Father to come in faith to Jesus Christ. Don't have to be a rocket scientist to clearly see this.

Thus being "given" by the Father to come to Christ for eternal life is not restricted to a select Jewish Audiance as Jesus uses UNIVERSAL terms "of ALL FLESH....as many as" and "no man can" and "ALL that the father giveth shall come."

There is no possible way except by shear deception and force can these words be restricted to a handful of Jews. However, that is the interpretation of Skandelon and others on this forum.

 

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

1. Note why they were cut off - "because of unbelief"
2. Note the same destiny is possible for Gentiles - "take heed lest he ALSO spare not thee" -
3. Hence, the EXACT SAME REASON for cutting them off in described in verses 7-11 is summarized by the phrase "because of unbelief" which is the condition of hardening against the truth.

Finally, there is a point in time "when the fullness of the gentiles be come in" when God returns and GRAFTS Israel in "AGAIN" as before it was cut off and at that precise time "all Israel shall be saved":

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


The "Israel" in view is the same Israel that right now "concerning the gospel, they are enemies FOR YOUR SAKES; but as TOUCHING ELECTION , they are beloved for the fathers (plural -Abraham, Isaac, Jacob's) sake proving it is NATIONAL ISRAEL that is saved in verse 25.

Throoughout this discussion you have demonstrated you have SELECTIVE SIGHT and simply pick and choose what you want to say IN SPITE of the clear context that repudiates your selective sight.

Again, the hardening description in Romans 11:7-11 is summarized as "unbelief" and the Gentiles are warned they would be cut off just as Israel was cut off for the same hardening processes.

1. Now, no saved Israel was cut off as the elect remnant is not the subject of being cut off.

2. Israel as A WHOLE rejected Christ and the individual hearts of the majority of Israelites were hardened against the gospel as LOST PEOPLE. Likewise, no gentile elect remnant will be cut off but only GENTILES AS A WHOLE composed of the majority as lost individuals will harden against the gospel so that the NATIONS of the world come up to fight Christ at Armageddon except for a "remnant" of Gentiles.

Your interpretation is 100% completley false as that text equally applies to ALL LOST MANKIND AT ANY TIME AS MUCH AS IT DID TO LOST ISRAEL as that is the characteristic of ANY LOST REBELLIOUS HEART that continues in resistance to exposure to truth. It is applied to Israel at that precise moment in time because ONLY LOST ISRAEL had been exposed to the truth of the gospel in the person of Christ IN THEIR MIDST.

Moreover, absolute proof that your restrictive interpretation is false is that John 6:37-45 and John 17:2-3 concern coming to Christ in faith for eternal life and is placed in UNIVERSAL language.

1. "ALL FLESH" - Jn. 17:2a in contast to "as many as thou hast given me" for eternal life.

2. "ALL that the father gives" NONE shall be lost in regard to ETERNAL LIFE Jn. 6:37-40

3. "NO MAN can" - Jn. 6:44

This is not language that restricts the "all" given to simply the twelve apostles as the sole recipitents of "eternal life". That is simply ridiculous.

I just don't believe, as you do that all mankind are born in a condition of complete hardness and blindness to God's revelation. [/QUOTE]


Why build a straw man???? I don't believe that either and so why say I do? Every man is born with a depraved condition that by nature is at war with God and is not subject to the law of God. However, only when fallen man is able to intellectual discern between good and evil is the PROCESSS and PROGRESS of hardening/resistance is manifest (Jn. 3:19-20). Prior to that intelligent confrontation with light there is no self-evident manifestation of that condition. Only when light confronts that condition is there the BEGINNING of manifest rebellion and the more exposure of light the greater the progress in rebellion. Such progression in rebellion is hardening of the depraved heart toward light.

Light only MANIFESTS that condition and begins the progress of hardening. The same sun that melts butter hardens clay and the CONDITION of the fallen man is "clay" or fallen and at enmity toward God and not subject to the Law of God and INTELLECTUAL DISCERNMENT just provides the proof to make that condition manifest.

 

1. John 6 does not even contain your text - period!

2. John 6 is about COMING TO CHRIST IN FAITH FOR ETERNAL LIFE and NOTHING about chosen nationally or chosen to apostleship - period!

3. Your proof text does not describe some limited ALIENS who have some rare condition existing among humans as your restrictive interpretation demands. But simply applies a UNIVERSAL TRUTH to the present audiance of unbelievers which Romans 11 defines as "unbelief" and clearly and explicity claims the same description can be applied to GENTILES who respond in the same kind of unbelief.

Here is their condition that God cut them off for:

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

These verses are then summarized as "unbelief" and applied also to Gentiles as possible for the same reaction by God:

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

1. Note only one kind of description is given in context that describes this "unbelief" - vv. 7-10.

2. This description is then summarized thus "because of their unbelief they were cut off" - . 20

3. This same description and same consequence Paul claims can be EQUALLY APPLIED TO GENTILES - v. 21,22

You are guilty of restricting a descriptive condition to only one class of unbelievers when the scriptures define that as the STANDARD description for all unbelief apart from election (Rom. 11:5-7).

Desperation gives way to ridicule? Your interpetation is wrong and ANYONE who adopts is equally wrong. You have not yet been capable of responding clearly and intelligently to the case of Judas or to the contextual application to the Gentiles or the contextual evidence that "ALL" given by the Father cannot possibly limited to twelve Jews or a small number of Jews period but refers to "ALL" the Father gives to the Son both Jews and Gentiles as the giving is for "eternal life" and has the word "whosover" attached (Jn. 6:40).

My oh my what double talk! Any way you define it, you still apply both GENERAL truths to a tiny restricted racial number whether applied negative or positive. Any school boy can read John 6:39-45 and easily see these words cannot possibly be restricted to a tiny number of Jews just because it can be applied to some in in a given context.

it is the height of absurdity to claim that "ALL" that are given by the Father in this context or any other context, which are taken from among "ALL FLESH" for the purpose to obtain eternal life can be restricted to a tiny select number of Jews living in the life of Christ. Jesus says "ALL" that the Father gives me shall come to me" and you want any intelligent reader to believe that "ALL" does not transcend people in the immediate context??!!!????

Extremely FEW commentators RESTRICT the term "all" in John 6:37-40 to merely the Jewish audiance standing before him? That is so absurd that it takes sheer blindness and a lot of gall to even claim such a thing. In John 17;2 we have a contrast not between Israel and Gentiles but between those given and "ALL FLESH" with the object of being given eternal life. Pleeeeease take a breath and and get a good working pair of glasses and read what is in front of you and make a common sense interpretation.

 

I don't know how you questions and my quotations got mixed. Anyway my last two posts to answer skandelon demonstrate contextually these are simply descriptions of the depraved condition whether applied to LOST Isreal or LOST Gentiles and is the COMMON response of the depraved condition to exposure to light (Jn. 3:19-20).

 

Look, it is not me that is on a merri go round. Your points have been solidly refuted and it is you that have not responded to my arguments.

1. judas was chosen to be an apostle but never given by the Father to the son for eternal life - Jn. 6:64-65,70; 17:2-3

This proves your interpretation that chosen for office is inseparable from chosen to salvation IS WRONG!

2. The proof text you base your whole argument upon repeated in Romans 11:8-10 is summed up in the words "because they did not believe" referrring to the lost Jews who hardened their hearts toward the truth is the same condition potentially applied to Gentile lost who harden their hearts against the truth in Romans 11:20-22.

This proves that this condition is UNIVERSAL among the lost regardless of race.

3. The hardening process does not deny total depravity to be the condition prior to hardening. Total depravity does not mean one is as corrupt or as hardened as they can be. When the fallen nature is exposed to intellectually discernable light the hardening process begins and is the normal response to light by all who are "in the flesh" or lost condition - Jn. 3:19-20; Rom. 3:10-18; 8:7-8.

4. John 6 uses language that prohibits your narrow interpretation because it is not PART but "ALL" that are given to the Son come to the Son in faith for eternal life and this act of given is in regard to God's purpose of will before the incarnation as explicity says in regard to this specific will of the Father that his incarnation was for this purpose to secure "ALL" whom the Father gave him for eternal life - Jn. 6:37-40; 17:2-3 OUT OF ALL FLESH not merely out of Israel.

5. Jesus said "NO MAN" not "no Jew" and thus his language forbids your restrictive interpretation.

6. Being given is the necessary antecedent and condition for anyone coming to Christ in faith to obtain eternal life and thus the "ALL" in Jn. 6:37-40 cannot possibly be restricted to twelve apostles or some few dozen Jews as you claim during the ministry of Jesus Christ.

7. Your position depends upon confusing chosen to salvation with chosen to be an apostle which is repudiate by the example in Judas and repudiated by the distinct different time between their salvation profession and their call to apostolic office.

8. Your interpretation cannot honestly fit John 6:29-65 or John 17:2-3 without teaching sacramentalism.

 

Jn. 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 6:30-65 is designed to prove that faith in Christ is not the work of men but the work of God:

1. Believing on him is defined by context to be equal to the words "come to me" -Jn. 6:30-36.

The audiance asks him to give them a sign IN ORDER that they may see and believe (v. 30). However, he had just proven by feeding the thousands by a miraculous sign that seeing such a sign does not produce faith:

26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. Also, he said that ONLY an evil and adulterious generation seeketh after a sign to believe when they won't believe the Word of God plainly preached.

In John 6:35 "never thirst' and "never hunger" are parallel characteristics of those who PARTAKE of Christ as the "bread of life" BY FAITH and thus "cometh to me" and "believe on me" are equally parallel of what it means to PARTAKE of the bread of life that provides eternal life.



2. Coming to Christ is the work of the Father as NONE can come to Him but those GIVEN TO HIM BY THE FATHER, thus "ALL" who are given by the Father do come to him in faith - Jn. 6:37-40.

The English and Greek grammar demands by use of the future tense that "shall come" is the consequence of being given rather than the cause for being given. Furthermore, being given is the consequence of God's will of purpose (vv. 38-39) which the Son EFFECTUALLY fulfills. The effectuall coming of "ALL" given so that NOTHING is lost demands effectual election/choice of that "All" in regard to God's will of purpose. Finally, this election and purposed will Jesus vowed to EFFECTUALLY fulfil so that "NOTHING" is lost occurred before the incarnation of Christ - "I came down...to do the Father's will" in regard to this specific "ALL" so that "NOTHING" shall be lost. Hence, verses 37-40 refers to the SOVERIGN ELECTIVE PURPOSE OF GOD concerning an effectual coming by "ALL" that NONE are lost. However, it is verses 44-65 that define the EFFECTUAL POWER that actually obtains effectual coming of that all so that NOTHING is lost.

3. Coming to Christ is the work of the Father as NONE can come to Christ but those the Father draws and drawing is the work of the Father - Jn. 6:41-63

The same "ALL" in verse 45a is the same "all" in verses 37-39 and that is proven by the precise prophetic quotation that deals with the "ALL" of the New Covenant people of God wherein God effectually writes His laws upon their hearts in contrast to men teaching them - Jer. 31:3-34; Isa. 54:13; Ezek. 36:26-27; Heb. 8,10

4. All who do not believe in Christ were never given to the Son by the Father - John 6:64-65 - thus coming to Christ is the work of God.

Judas is the absolute proof that Skandelon's interpetation of John 6 and John 17 is limited to only a selective few in regard to the choice of apostolic office! The "all" in both John 6 and "as many as" in John 17:2-3 is about election to eternal life not the apostolic office or national election to privilege. Judas was chosen to apostolic office but not given by the Father to the Son for eternal life as in John 6 Jesus uses the PRESENT TENSE "believe not" and "IS" a devil and in John 17 calling him the "son of perdition" PROVING THAT JUDAS WAS NEVER GIVEN TO THE SON BY THE FATHER IN THE SENSE OF SALVATION. Thus election to salvation and election to office are not parallel or inseparable as Judas was chosen for one but not the other. Moreover, the other eleven made professions of faith LONG BEFORE they were called to apostolic office. Furthermore they were CHOSEN OUT OF OTHER DISCIPLES who continued to follow Christ with the eleven "all the time" from the baptism of John to Christ's resurrection (Acts 1:21-22) proving again that call to office is not parallel to call to salvation. So John 6 and John 17 primarily deal with being chosen and given to the Son FOR ETERNAL LIFE not with the office of apostleship. The apostolic office in only included in John 17 because they were to be messengers of the gospel TO ALL THE WORLD and others would come to believe through their words (Jn. 17:20) proving once again the primary topic is SALVATION not service.