Observations Upon Sister White & SDA Doctrines

[Protestant]

Just wanted to point out the difference between early Luther and mature later Luther, as well as, "Gergely M. Juhász, Ph.D. (2008) in Theology, Catholic University of Leuven, is Lecturer in Theology and Biblical Studies at Liverpool Hope University"

[Liverpool Hope University aka "Former names: Notre Dame College, Saint Katharine's College, Christ's College, Liverpool Institute of Higher Education, Liverpool Hope University College"]

I personally think you are deceptive, but that is neither here nor there:

"... Joye, however, changed the last clause to “But thou shalt be recompensed at the lyfe of the iuste men.” Although Joye did not explain his motivation to change Tyndale’s translation of this text, there can be no doubt that in Joye’s read-ing, this sentence also refers to the judgement of the individual at the moment of death: the ‘reward’ for the good deeds on earth shall be given to the individual upon his or her death. This interpretation of the text is consistent with his anthropological view and with his belief that the souls of the dead receive their reward or punishment immediately upon their death. Interpreting resurrectio in this sentence as referring to the bodily resurrection would have contradicted his dualistic anthropology or, at least in Joye’s understanding, would have promoted the Anabaptists’ (and Luther’s and Tyndale’s) position on soul sleep. ..." [PDF 385]​

Have you read the conclusion? It doesn't match your conclusion (at all).

"... For him [William Tyndale], body and soul are in all probability not two differ-ent components but two different aspects of the same human person—a position that most modern exegetes believe to be the most ancient and authentic biblical view on the human being. ..." [PDF 431]​

Furthermore, after the "conclusion" there is further material given by George Joye to Hugh Latimer (29 April 1533), saying:

"... that the sowles departyd slepe not nor 8 lye ydle tyll domes daye as Martyn luther and the Anabaptystes saye and as me 9 thinkythe ffrythe and William tyndall wolde..." - [PDF 433; lines 7-9]​

George Joye's position was in opposition to those so named.

The author of Translating Resurrection describes Martin Luther’s early views on Purgatory: In 1518 “Luther at that time believed that the souls experienced infernal torments and despair in Purgatory. According to him, the souls are purified by these ineffable, indescribable, and incredible sufferings and by immeasurable fear” (p. 166).

Conclusion: Early Luther believed the souls of the dead were alive -not sleeping - experiencing suffering, despair, torment and fear.

The same author states the final, mature view of Luther:

“In later years, however, Luther reverted occasionally to his inherited Catholic view on the fate of the soul after death. [I.e., Purgatory.] As a consequence, the doctrine on psychosomnolence was in most Protestant denominations replaced by that on the natural immortality of the soul. See: Althaus, Die letzten Dinge, pp. 146–47” (p. 179).

Conclusion: The doctrine of Purgatory negates the doctrine of soul sleep. Sleep is an unconscious state. According to Catholic doctrine, Purgatory is a conscious tortuous state experienced by the soul undergoing purgation. To say Martin Luther was an ardent advocate of soul sleep is equivalent to saying Joe Biden is an outstanding orator whose elocution is faultless.

 

[Protestant]

Actually, no. They have been overrun by the Jesuits, a loooong time ago.

Your ad hominem rebuttal echoes the debating style of the late Jack Chick, offering not a whit of proof because you have none. No wonder you adore Sister White, the dishonest prideful plagiarist. You reflect the same spirit.

​

 

[Alofa Atu]

The author of Translating Resurrection describes Martin Luther’s early views on Purgatory: In 1518 “Luther at that time believed that the souls experienced infernal torments and despair in Purgatory. According to him, the souls are purified by these ineffable, indescribable, and incredible sufferings and by immeasurable fear” (p. 166).

Conclusion: Early Luther believed the souls of the dead were alive -not sleeping - experiencing suffering, despair, torment and fear.

The same author states the final, mature view of Luther:

“In later years, however, Luther reverted occasionally to his inherited Catholic view on the fate of the soul after death. [I.e., Purgatory.] As a consequence, the doctrine on psychosomnolence was in most Protestant denominations replaced by that on the natural immortality of the soul. See: Althaus, Die letzten Dinge, pp. 146–47” (p. 179).

Conclusion: The doctrine of Purgatory negates the doctrine of soul sleep. Sleep is an unconscious state. According to Catholic doctrine, Purgatory is a conscious tortuous state experienced by the soul undergoing purgation. To say Martin Luther was an ardent advocate of soul sleep is equivalent to saying Joe Biden is an outstanding orator whose elocution is faultless.

As I showed earlier, your 'friend' is a Catholic, at a Catholic University, promoting Catholic revisionist history to justify their own scholars. I have stated that I think you are deceptive, and this current reply, does not diminish my estimation of you, but only further solidifies the conclusion drawn.

Martin Luther stated himself, in Table Talk (his actual mature years, not the early, nor imaginary catholic ones)

"... Of Purgatory [page 153-154]

DXV.

Augustine, Ambrose, and Jerome held nothing at all of purgatory. Gregory, being in the nighttime deceived by a vision, taught something of purgatory, whereas God openly commanded that we should search out and inquire nothing of spirits, but of Moses and the prophets.

Therefore we must not admit Gregory’s opinion on this point; the day of the Lord will show and declare the same, when it will be revealed by fire.

This sentence, “And their works do follow them,” must not be understood of purgatory, but of the doctrine of good works, or of godly and true Christians, and of heretics. Arius, the heretic, has had his judgment; the fire of faith has declared it. For the last day will discover and declare all things.

God has, in his Word, laid before us two ways; one which by faith leads to salvation,—the other, by unbelief, to damnation.

As for purgatory, no place in Scripture makes mention thereof, neither must we any way allow it; for it darkens and undervalues the grace, benefits, and merits of our blessed, sweet Saviour Christ Jesus.

The bounds of purgatory extend not beyond this world; for here in this life the upright, good, and godly Christians are well and soundly scoured and purged. ..." - Table Talk, Martin Luther, Pages 153-154 - http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF Books/Luther Table Talk.pdf​

Imagine that, the position of Luther, as stated by Luther, a 'Lutheran' (known in later years), and not a Papist Catholic historical revisionist. Your name is not as your character.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Your ad hominem rebuttal echoes the debating style of the late Jack Chick, offering not a whit of proof because you have none. No wonder you adore Sister White, the dishonest prideful plagiarist. You reflect the same spirit.

​

I think Jack Chick, and David W Daniels, wiser than thou art.

 

[Protestant]

As I showed earlier, your 'friend' is a Catholic, at a Catholic University, promoting Catholic revisionist history to justify their own scholars. I have stated that I think you are deceptive, and this current reply, does not diminish my estimation of you, but only further solidifies the conclusion drawn.

Martin Luther stated himself, in Table Talk (his actual mature years, not the early, nor imaginary catholic ones)

"... Of Purgatory [page 153-154]

DXV.

Augustine, Ambrose, and Jerome held nothing at all of purgatory. Gregory, being in the nighttime deceived by a vision, taught something of purgatory, whereas God openly commanded that we should search out and inquire nothing of spirits, but of Moses and the prophets.

Therefore we must not admit Gregory’s opinion on this point; the day of the Lord will show and declare the same, when it will be revealed by fire.

This sentence, “And their works do follow them,” must not be understood of purgatory, but of the doctrine of good works, or of godly and true Christians, and of heretics. Arius, the heretic, has had his judgment; the fire of faith has declared it. For the last day will discover and declare all things.

God has, in his Word, laid before us two ways; one which by faith leads to salvation,—the other, by unbelief, to damnation.

As for purgatory, no place in Scripture makes mention thereof, neither must we any way allow it; for it darkens and undervalues the grace, benefits, and merits of our blessed, sweet Saviour Christ Jesus.

The bounds of purgatory extend not beyond this world; for here in this life the upright, good, and godly Christians are well and soundly scoured and purged. ..." - Table Talk, Martin Luther, Pages 153-154 - http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF Books/Luther Table Talk.pdf​

Imagine that, the position of Luther, as stated by Luther, a 'Lutheran' (known in later years), and not a Papist Catholic historical revisionist. Your name is not as your character.

Another ad hominin. The author's work is monumental in scope and depth. It matters not his gender, race, politics or personal religious views. He is simply laying out the historical facts, using only primary sources in German, Latin and 16th century English. To dismiss his extraordinary scholarship as the work of a 'Papist Catholic historical revisionist' reveals your naiveté, ignorance and brainwashed bias toward those who dare oppose, with credible proofs, the anti-biblical teachings of the SDA church.

 

[Protestant]

I think Jack Chick, and David W Daniels, wiser than thou art.

Jack Chick & Company have my book in their library. David W. Daniels, according to a quick Google search, believes the KJ Bible is 'God's preserved words in English.' That is but one striking error he and Chick have made over the years.

Next you are going to claim they believe EGW a prophet of God. LOL

 

[Alofa Atu]

Jack Chick & Company have my book in their library

They also have Vaticanus, Sinaiticus and books by Catholics, Jehovah's Witesses, Mormons, Muslims, etc in their library. I likewise carry some of the same materials in mine.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Is it really vague or was it not rather really plain before your eyes? The real error here, is fault finding to simply find fault.

Time Index 16:37 - 17:31 -- "... "... WE ACCEPT GOD'S GR~ ..." [citing from adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental-beliefs/salvation/the-experience-of-salvation/ ], Now what, what do they [Seventh-day Adventists] believe about salvation? That's the most important thing, of course. "... WE ACCEPT GOD's GRACE AND SALVATION, THE HOLY SPIRIT REVEALS OUR NEED FOR JESUS AND RECREATES US. THE SPIRIT BUILDS OUR FAITH AND HELPS US LEAVE OUR BROKEN LIVES BEHIND. ..." It's written in such generic language that you can't really 'nail' them on anything, and al ~, that's always done in~, uh, inteniously [self-corrected to], intentionally of course. They say that, "... Christ ... (was) made ... righteousness of God. ..." That's true. "... Led by the Holy Spirit we sense our need, acknowledge our sinfulness, repent of our transgressions, and exercise faith in Jesus as Saviour and Lord, Substitute and Example. ..." Ok, that's again, vague terms. "... This saving faith comes through the divine power of the Word and is the gift of God's grace. Through Chri~ ..." There's a bit of Calvinism there. "... Through Christ we are justified, adopted as God's sons and daughters, and delivered from the lordship of sin. Through the Spirit we are born again and sanctified, the Spirit renews our minds ... [tsck tongue click]" Sounds, again, great. ..."​

Brother Antonios, to simply continue to call the statement of faith "vague" or "generic" without actually pointing out any errors therein, is simply attempting to find fault for the sake of finding fault (as you desire to find, by saying, "nail them"). It is a characteristic of satan (Daniel 6:4; Luke 6:7). Lucifer could not find fault with the Law of God, and yet called it vague and tried to show fault therein, and that his way was better. You are on the same path here brother. As the pharisees continued their practice of fault finding to find fault, they eventually found where to "nail" Jesus Christ. It was to a cross. Another path, another way [Jesus Christ] is open to you. Please take it.

The website you quoted from, gives all of the scriptures, to specifically define the words used, so that there is no actual vagueness about it.

If there is any question on any word, such as "grace", "Spirit", "justified", etc, just turn to the verses cited, and they are therein defined in the King James Bible. We do not disagree with what is therein written, for if we had so disagreed, we would never have cited them.

Also, to call the 'header' vague is childish. It's a header. It is a brief summation of the points below it. I do not call headlines vague, when the content is immediately below them. Notice the verses cited please:

"... When we accept God’s grace and salvation, the Holy Spirit reveals our need for Jesus and recreates us. The Spirit builds our faith and helps us leave our broken lives behind.

In infinite love and mercy God made Christ, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, so that in Him we might be made the righteousness of God. Led by the Holy Spirit we sense our need, acknowledge our sinfulness, repent of our transgressions, and exercise faith in Jesus as Saviour and Lord, Substitute and Example. This saving faith comes through the divine power of the Word and is the gift of God’s grace. Through Christ we are justified, adopted as God’s sons and daughters, and delivered from the lordship of sin. Through the Spirit we are born again and sanctified; the Spirit renews our minds, writes God’s law of love in our hearts, and we are given the power to live a holy life. Abiding in Him we become partakers of the divine nature and have the assurance of salvation now and in the judgment. (Gen. 3:15; Isa. 45:22; 53; Jer. 31:31-34; Ezek. 33:11; 36:25-27; Hab. 2:4; Mark 9:23, 24; John 3:3-8, 16; 16:8; Rom. 3:21-26; 8:1-4, 14-17; 5:6-10; 10:17; 12:2; 2 Cor. 5:17-21; Gal. 1:4; 3:13, 14, 26; 4:4-7; Eph. 2:4-10; Col. 1:13, 14; Titus 3:3-7; Heb. 8:7-12; 1 Peter 1:23; 2:21, 22; 2 Peter 1:3, 4; Rev. 13:8.) ..."​

Much of the content is a paraphrase or a direct quote from scripture (as cited in the article), for instance, "... God made Christ, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, so that in Him we might be made the righteousness of God ..." is directly citing, 2 Corinthians 5:21 in such manner. Vague? Hardly. To call that vague, or any part of it vague, is to call Paul vague, and the others referenced vague, and thus the Holy Ghost vague. Yet, you say it is a "true" statement. Well then, it is not all "vague" and "generic" is it?

We reject the errors of Calvin (OSAS, etc). He had some things right, and some things wrong. That is why we do not follow sinful persons, but instead follow the sinless person Jesus Christ.

In responding to your video, I have found fault with actual documentable errors. I did not go looking into your video to simply find fault for the sake of finding fault.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Michael is Jesus, as shown on this forum on numerous occasion, but what does it have to do with Salvation statements?:

Time Index 17:31 - 18:20 -- "... Now did you know that they [Seventh-day Adventists] believe that Jesus is the Angel Mi~ the Archangel Michael? Now to be just, that, they believe it differently than the Jehovah's Witnesses. The Jehovah's Witnesses Je ~, believe that Michael is a created being, and that, uh, Jesus therefore is not God. He is not Divine. Now the Seventh-day Adventists, it's a mixture of those things. They [Seventh-day Adventists] do believe that it's [Jesus] Michael, but that believe that Michael is eternal. That Michael is the Word of God. But Michael is an Archangel, friends. Michael is an Archangel. He is not the Word of God. An Archangel is not the Word of God. An angel has a beginning because he is created. The Word of God has no beginning because it's uncreated. Very different things. So, they say that [Time Index 16:37 - 17:31 -- [citing from adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental-beliefs/salvation/the-experience-of-salvation/ ]] about salvation. Sounds like they are teaching salvation by grace through faith, which is the correct New Testament church age teaching. However if you read on ..."​

Brother George Antonios, what has the statement of Salvation (as provided by the website), and understanding of it by the Seventh-day Adventist movement, have to do with the doctrine of Jesus being Michael Archangel (fully Deity and eternal, uncreated, the Word, the Alpha and Omega, etc, the Son of the Father)? It is apples to oranges. A faulty comparison. Why bring the subject into the discussion about salvation? I was saved (having called upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ upon my knees to save me from my sins in hot tears one providential night) before I ever knew that Jesus was Michael, and I still have the relationship in salvation, after knowing it.

Yes, Jesus is Michael. Practically all of the Reformation taught it as such, and I have the citations to demonstrate it, and of citations, outside of scripture, going back to Melito of Sardis just after the death of John. I also have the statements of scripture itself before them all, which is where I learned about the doctrine to begin with. The rest is just icing as it were.

The Jehovah's Witnesses actually have the mixture and not us. They have a mixture of Roman Catholic and Protestant theology, and they have turned half-way back. Roman Catholicism, due to their angel 'veneration' (worship), downgraded Michael to a created being. While the Jehovah's Witnesses kept part of the Reformation and Advent doctrines, they also did as Romanism and made him created (for Romanism, the religion of satan, always finds a way to demote Jesus).

Brother, to simply say that angels are created beings, shows a lack of Bible study upon your part. Not all "Angels" are created -see Hebrews 1 for instance, or Malachi 3:1, etc. The word 'angel', itself in Hebrew, Syriac, Greek or even in English does not carry an inherent definition of created. The word simply and only means, "messenger', "ambassador", or "one who is sent for another", and Arch simply means ruling over, in charge of others, etc. The word Michael, simply means "Who is like unto God" (meaning the Father) and the only person that all of that fits, is the Son.

From Wikipedia:

Consider also my own book on the subject, and especially see chapters, 03, 04, 11 and Appendix 2.

Study Notes – Michael the archangel [00A] – The Table Of Contents (PDF)

Study Notes – Michael the archangel [00B] – The Introduction (PDF)

Study Notes – Michael the archangel [01] – Locating the main texts (PDF)

Study Notes – Michael the archangel [02] – The Basic Definitions (PDF)

Study Notes – Michael the archangel [03] – The word “angel” as defined and used (PDF)

Study Notes – Michael the archangel [04] – Archangels in the KJB and in the SoP-ToJ (PDF)

Study Notes – Michael the archangel [05] – Michael the great prince of Daniel (PDF)

Study Notes – Michael the archangel [06] – The Two Princes (PDF)

Study Notes – Michael the archangel [07] – Revelation 12, An Unbreakable Chiastic Structure (PDF)

Study Notes – Michael the archangel [08] – The Great Controversy – Michael vs Dragon (PDF)

Study Notes – Michael the archangel [09] – The Comparisons of the “Angel of the LORD” throughout the KJB (PDF)

Study Notes – Michael the archangel [10] – Questions and Answers about Michael Archangel – Jesus Texts (PDF)

Study Notes – Michael the archangel [11] – Messengers of the LORD & the Reformation & etc (PDF)

Study Notes – Michael the archangel [12] – The Plan of Redemption – Who is like unto God – Daniel 11.40-45, 12.1-3 (PDF)

Study Notes – Michael the archangel [X1] – Appendix 1 – The Epistles of Peter & Jude compared (PDF)

Study Notes – Michael the archangel [X2] – Appendix 2 – The Short Historical List of those who taught Jesus is Michael (PDF)

Study Notes – Michael the archangel [X3] – Appendix 3 – The Many Names And Titles Of The Son Of The Father – Jesus (PDF)

Study Notes – Michael the archangel [X4] – Appendix 4 – The Son of the Father, Jesus, who is JEHOVAH Emmanuel, the Eternal and great I AM, God manifest in the flesh (PDF)

Study Notes – Michael the archangel [X5] – Appendix 5 – The Cross throughout the Bible and in the Sanctuary (PDF)

Study Notes – Michael the archangel [X6] – Appendix 6 – Daniel & the Revelation compared, 7 Branch Candlestick (PDF)

Study Notes – Michael the archangel [X7] – Appendix 7 – Daniel 11.1-20 KJB, 3 Angels Messages, a work in progress (PDF)

If you have any questions, PM me. I can discuss this with you as needful, or create another Thread on it.

You will also find the same articles here - User Account

 

[robycop3]

You have been shown Scripture repeatedly that proves Michael is not Jesus. You have been shown Scripture repeatedly that proves the wicked will be in the LOF for ever. But yet you keep repeating the same goofy lies over & over. No Christian with a Bible is gonna believe that garbage.

And EGW is a repeater of those lies. She is not my "sister". She was a mountebank & charlatan who deceived many, such as yourself.

I hope you turn your focus on JESUS & what He REALLY said, & drop all that SDA nonsense & pack of lies.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Error, the Bible doesn't teach Calvinistic OSAS. This is really the contention, as the Biblical doctrine of the Investigative Judgment is contrary to OSAS. Those two cannot and will never go together, as one is of God, and the other of the devil. Let's go to the scriptures:

Time Index 18:20 - 19:58 -- "... [citing: adventist/beliefs/fundamental-beliefs/restoration/christs-ministry-in-the-heavenly-sanctuary/ ] What Mary White [Ellen G White] developed was something called the doctrine of the Investigative Justic~ Judgment, and it was based on Hiram Edson's teaching that Christ goes into the Holy ~ Holiest place. And so the teaching is that when you sin, your sin is marked against you. And then when you confess your sin and you repent that sin is barred [covered by the blood of Jesus, marked as confessed and forgiven], but it still appears. And, so when Christ comes back [Second Advent] if you have any sin that's on your record which hasn't been barred, then you're lost and you cease to exist. And all, if all your sins are barred, then you go on to live with God. Now that's actually salvation based on works. This is again from their [Seventh-day Adventist] website. It says that, this Investigative Judgment, "... It makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, ...", see you gotta be, you gotta keep living a certain way. "... keeping the commandments of God ...", which, as we'll see, soon, keeping the Sabbath is the main one., "... and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. ..." So really, salvation is not by grace, you're supposed to live a certain way., "... those who have remained loyal to God ...", at the end of the "... probation ...", those are the guys that make it. And another characteristic of cults is talking out of both sides of their mouth. So in the one place, on one si~, one page you [Seventh-day Adventist] say it's grace, and it's, and, and it's, it's by faith. And then on the other page though, you [Seventh-day Adventist] say, 'Yeah, but you got to abide with Christ. You have to be loyal. You have to do the commandments, and you're on probation.' And like Paul says in Romans Chapter 11 verse 6, 'If it's grace then it's no more of works. It is, for it is, if salvation is of works, then it is no more of grace. You can't mix the two ..."​

Ok, several errors and misrepresentations here.

[1] The Investigative Judgment (God's doctrine) is in scripture, with or without Hiram Edson and/or Ellen G White. Here is the evidence:

Powerpoint here - https://archive.org/download/hide-seek/Hide & Seek.pptx

If you need further details just ask for clarification. It works better than simply trying to assault something which you presently, and clearly (without being derogatory), do not understand, or are unknowledgable of.​

[2] I have already demonstrated by previous material that the wicked do not 'cease to be' when Christ Jesus returns at the Second Advent. They are killed and laid to rest until after the 1,000 years (Rev. 20; Isa. 24, Zec. 14, etc), at which tim they are resurrected to face the final execution of Judgment (Great White Throne; Revelation 20), at which time, they will be completely destroyed by fire and never be any more (texts already cited here - Observations Upon Sister White & SDA Doctrines and here - Observations Upon Sister White & SDA Doctrines and here - Observations Upon Sister White & SDA Doctrines and here - Observations Upon Sister White & SDA Doctrines and here - Observations Upon Sister White & SDA Doctrines ) Brother Antonios, you have misrepresented us again here. I am asking for you to correct your mistake publically, as you have stated on Christ's honour and name (Exodus 20:7) as a Christian, you would do. We are not like the Jehovah's Witnesses who err in this point. As stated previously to you, they do not have everything correct on the state of the dead and judgment.

[3] Yes, forgiven sin is covered, not blotted out until the time of blotting out. The Bible does not teach Calvinistic OSAS. It teaches, plainly, from Genesis to Revelation, 'probation' (see Matthew 18, for a single instance, among many others). A sin which is blotted out has no need to be covered by the blood. Forgiveness and blotting out are not the same thing, as stated numerous times on this very forum, with plethora of scripture, that still stands unrefuted. Watch the video, read the powerpoint.

Forgiven sins are "covered", until they are "blotted out" (just before He comes again; Acts 3:19-20, etc). This too was shown you on several occasions. What do you do with the information shared with you?

Sins are not blotted out at Calvary (Passover).

Sins (forgiven) are "covered" by the blood at Calvary (Passover, see the type in Exodus), and yet still remain on record in Heaven. (Psalms 109:14; Nehemiah 4:5; Jeremiah 18:23, etc)

Sins are "blotted out" at the end, just before He comes (Day of Atonement), see Leviticus 16 and 23. See Daniel, Hebrews and Revelation.

See also a more indepth look:

here - "Private Interpretation"

here - "Private Interpretation"

here - "Private Interpretation"

here - "Private Interpretation"

here - "Private Interpretation"

here - "Private Interpretation"​

 

[Alofa Atu]

Error, the Bible doesn't teach Calvinistic OSAS. This is really the contention, as the Biblical doctrine of the Investigative Judgment is contrary to OSAS. Those two cannot and will never go together, as one is of God, and the other of the devil. Let's go to the scriptures:

Time Index 18:20 - 19:58 -- cited previously​

[4] No. It is not salvation by works, and simply calling it that doesn't make it so. Jesus in saying to the man and woman, "... Behold, thou art made whole [Grace]: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee. [abiding, commandments, probation, etc]" and "Neither do I condemn thee [grace], go and sin no more [abiding, commandments, etc.]" is not teaching salvation by works. The Ten Commandments are in the same order, Grace (Exodus 20:2) and obedience by Grace through Faith (Exodus 20:6; john 14:15). It is always salvation by grace, for grace teaches us to live godly (and to work the works of God, in salvation, never for salvation), see Titus 2:11-13. Grace is the power of God to live (presently now) righteously (as Jesus Christ did), see Romans 1:16; 1 Peter 1:5; Revelation 12:10; Ephesians 2:8-10; Titus 3:4-8, etc. It is God working in (Philippians 2:13) and we working out (Philippians 2:12) that salvation He grants by Grace through faith, which is called exercising faith, or the just shall "live" by faith. You have a misunderstanding of the various kinds of "works".

Thus see:

here - Questions for Adventist

here - Questions for Adventist

[5] The Sabbath commandment is not "the main one". The "main" commandment is, and always has been, and ever will be:

Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.​

The second is like unto to it:

Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.​

The sabbath of the LORD (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8; Mark 2:27-28; Hebrews 4:9; Revelation 14:6-7,12, etc) is important, as it is the seal of God in the Ten Commandments. It shows (James 2) whether one actually has living faith in Christ Jesus' salvation from sin, not in sin ( Matthew 1:21; Hebrews 3-4; Revelation 14:6-12).

As all Calvinistic OSAS'ers, they misunderstand the place of works as taught by those who teach obedience in salvation, not for salvation. The OSAS teaching my friend believed (he got from a Baptist) nearly cost my friend his marriage, and life, until God led him to me to show him the way out. Now he lives a sober life on truth, rather than on the false Babylonian wine of OSAS.

Again (and for the umpteenth time, lost count a loooooong time ago on this board), faithful Seventh-day Adventists do not and have never taught salvation by works, and that includes sister Ellen White (and numerous citations were also cited on that also). Yet, no matter what we say, no matter what scripture we quote, persons just keep on saying the propaganda hoping to get it to stick somehow, someway, but sin doesn't stick to Jesus Christ.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Error after error, misrepresentation after misrepresentation. Brother, oh brother, where art thou?

Time Index 19:58 - 20:49 -- "... And of course the Sabbath. They are called Sabbanth-day ~ the Seventh-day Adventist church. [citing adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental-beliefs/living/the-sabbath/ ] "... the fourth commandment of God's unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest. ...", "(This) [actually says "The"] Sabbath is God's perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. ..." The L~, Paul and James both say, that if you are guilty of one point of the law then you are guilty of all. And Paul says that, "If~, Cursed is he that continueth not in all things of the law." So, if you're gonna to take one point of the law, you're under the law. So, if you take the Sabbath, that means you're under the Ten Commandments. That means you're under the '613' commandments. So, you are a debtor to the law according to Galatians to do the whole Law. And whosoever is guilty in one point is guilty of all. So what they [Seventh-day Adventist] believe is that keeping the sabbath is actually the mark of the Beast. [scene change] ..."
​

[1] The "keeping the sabbath" is not ever the "mark of the beast" in the writings, teachings, preachings of Seventh-day Adventists (including sister Ellen White). That is a serious error in statement and ignorant misrepresentation. Please, take a moment and just read the Great Controversy, Chapter 35 - Liberty of Conscience Threatened. Here - The Great Controversy, Page 563 -- Ellen G. White Writings

Please correct your statement.

[2] There is no such thing as the '613' commandments. It is a Talmudic Rabbinc calculation, of which there are many, with differing orders, listing and reasons for, etc., and not scriptural See:

here - Does the day of Christ resurrection tell us to worship on Sunday?

here - Does the day of Christ resurrection tell us to worship on Sunday?

[3] Brother Antonios, to honour (Isaiah 42:21) God in the Ten Commandments (by love, Exodus 20:6; John 14:15) in the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34, Hebrews 8:8-13, 10:16, etc), is not being "under the law". It is being faithful (Ephesians 2:8-10; Titus 3:4-8) to our Redeemer from sin, Jesus Christ. Think about what you are saying, which is a reversal of the text. Jesus said, "If ye love me keep my commandments" (John 14:15; Exodus 20:6), and so to keep the Sabbath Holy (Isaiah 56:1-8; John 10:16; Acts 4:24, 14:15-16, 17:30) is not to sin, not to break the commandments, not to be guilty of all. It is amazing the reversal that 'Christians' these days teach about rejection of one of God's own voiced and written commandments.

[4] Pauls' statement about the 'curse' is in matters of keeping the law for 'justification' (ie 'works of the law') ie, in regards the Old Covenant promise made in Exodus 19 & 24, not matters in 'sanctification' in salvation in the New Covenant.

Gal_3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.​

Seventh-day Adventists do not teach justification comes by law keeping, any law. We teach:

Isa 45:25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.​

To keep God's commandment (distinct from the 'book of the law') by love, grace through faith, is not a "work of the law", it is a work of God's grace upon the heart, unto living faith, living obedience.

See:

https://ia801505.us.archive.org/15/items/bible-prophecy-gods-law-ceremonial-law/Bible - Prophecy - God's Law & Ceremonial Law.jpeg

Each of the Ten Commandments, are a promise in the New Covenant:

There are two glories spoken of in 2 Corinthians 3.

[1] the glory of the law of God

[2] the glory of Moses face.​

The context and the koine Greek endings demonstrate that the 2n glory was "done away" with.

Look:

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.​

There are several things in 2 Corinthians 3.

[1] Law (God's Ten Commandments, His Character, doesn't change, stays, "remaineth")

[2] ministration (changes), how the Law is administered

[3] glories (differing glories)

The glory of the Law as seen in Moses face goes away

the glory of the Law in the life and face of Jesus Christ remaineth and is more glorious.

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
2Co 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.​

[4] Mediator (differing mediators)

Moses ('old covenant'; Exodus 19:8)

Jesus (eternal covenant; Malachi 2:5; Jeremiah 31; Hebrews 8, etc)​

[5] location (differing locations)

tables of stone

tables of the fleshy heart (the brain is two hemispheres, two tables)​

[6] Holy Ghost (doesn't change)

The Law of God brings death, why?

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jas_1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Rom_7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.​

But it was ordained to Life, not death.

Through the Holy Ghost, who writes the "my (God's) law" upon the heart, the Law is able to be fulfilled in the life:

Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​

 

[Yeshua1]

Error after error, misrepresentation after misrepresentation. Brother, oh brother, where art thou?

Time Index 19:58 - 20:49 -- "... And of course the Sabbath. They are called Sabbanth-day ~ the Seventh-day Adventist church. [citing adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental-beliefs/living/the-sabbath/ ] "... the fourth commandment of God's unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest. ...", "(This) [actually says "The"] Sabbath is God's perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. ..." The L~, Paul and James both say, that if you are guilty of one point of the law then you are guilty of all. And Paul says that, "If~, Cursed is he that continueth not in all things of the law." So, if you're gonna to take one point of the law, you're under the law. So, if you take the Sabbath, that means you're under the Ten Commandments. That means you're under the '613' commandments. So, you are a debtor to the law according to Galatians to do the whole Law. And whosoever is guilty in one point is guilty of all. So what they [Seventh-day Adventist] believe is that keeping the sabbath is actually the mark of the Beast. [scene change] ..."
​

[1] The "keeping the sabbath" is not ever the "mark of the beast" in the writings, teachings, preachings of Seventh-day Adventists (including sister Ellen White). That is a serious error in statement and ignorant misrepresentation. Please, take a moment and just read the Great Controversy, Chapter 35 - Liberty of Conscience Threatened. Here - The Great Controversy, Page 563 -- Ellen G. White Writings

Please correct your statement.

[2] There is no such thing as the '613' commandments. It is a Talmudic Rabbinc calculation, of which there are many, with differing orders, listing and reasons for, etc., and not scriptural See:

here - Does the day of Christ resurrection tell us to worship on Sunday?

here - Does the day of Christ resurrection tell us to worship on Sunday?

[3] Brother Antonios, to honour (Isaiah 42:21) God in the Ten Commandments (by love, Exodus 20:6; John 14:15) in the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34, Hebrews 8:8-13, 10:16, etc), is not being "under the law". It is being faithful (Ephesians 2:8-10; Titus 3:4-8) to our Redeemer from sin, Jesus Christ. Think about what you are saying, which is a reversal of the text. Jesus said, "If ye love me keep my commandments" (John 14:15; Exodus 20:6), and so to keep the Sabbath Holy (Isaiah 56:1-8; John 10:16; Acts 4:24, 14:15-16, 17:30) is not to sin, not to break the commandments, not to be guilty of all. It is amazing the reversal that 'Christians' these days teach about rejection of one of God's own voiced and written commandments.

[4] Pauls' statement about the 'curse' is in matters of keeping the law for 'justification' (ie 'works of the law') ie, in regards the Old Covenant promise made in Exodus 19 & 24, not matters in 'sanctification' in salvation in the New Covenant.

Gal_3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.​

Seventh-day Adventists do not teach justification comes by law keeping, any law. We teach:

Isa 45:25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.​

To keep God's commandment (distinct from the 'book of the law') by love, grace through faith, is not a "work of the law", it is a work of God's grace upon the heart, unto living faith, living obedience.

See:

https://ia801505.us.archive.org/15/items/bible-prophecy-gods-law-ceremonial-law/Bible - Prophecy - God's Law & Ceremonial Law.jpeg

Each of the Ten Commandments, are a promise in the New Covenant:

There are two glories spoken of in 2 Corinthians 3.

[1] the glory of the law of God

[2] the glory of Moses face.​

The context and the koine Greek endings demonstrate that the 2n glory was "done away" with.

Look:

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.​

There are several things in 2 Corinthians 3.

[1] Law (God's Ten Commandments, His Character, doesn't change, stays, "remaineth")

[2] ministration (changes), how the Law is administered

[3] glories (differing glories)

The glory of the Law as seen in Moses face goes away

the glory of the Law in the life and face of Jesus Christ remaineth and is more glorious.

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
2Co 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.​

[4] Mediator (differing mediators)

Moses ('old covenant'; Exodus 19:8)

Jesus (eternal covenant; Malachi 2:5; Jeremiah 31; Hebrews 8, etc)​

[5] location (differing locations)

tables of stone

tables of the fleshy heart (the brain is two hemispheres, two tables)​

[6] Holy Ghost (doesn't change)

The Law of God brings death, why?

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jas_1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Rom_7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.​

But it was ordained to Life, not death.

Through the Holy Ghost, who writes the "my (God's) law" upon the heart, the Law is able to be fulfilled in the life:

Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​

Lord Jesus knows those who are His own, and he will raise up ALL saved in Him, NONE would be lost!
Jesus disagrees here with EW, and I trust His view on this!

 

[Salty]

ATTN; Six hour warning

This thread shall be closed no earlier than 6 pm EDT / 3 PM PST

 

[Protestant]

They also have Vaticanus, Sinaiticus and books by Catholics, Jehovah's Witesses, Mormons, Muslims, etc in their library. I likewise carry some of the same materials in mine.

As promised......….

Tyndale did not teach soul sleep

The following quotation is from Tyndale’s Exposition of the First Epistle of Saint John:

“Another thing is this: all the scripture maketh of the resurrection and coming again of Christ, and that all men, both they that go before, and they that come after, shall then receive their rewards together; and we are commanded to look every hour for that day. And what is done with the souls, from the departing of their bodies unto that day, doth the scripture make no mention; save only that they rest in the Lord, and in their faith. Wherefore he that determineth aught of the state of them that be departed, doth but teach the presumptuous of his own brain; neither can his doctrine be any article of our faith. What God doth with them is a secret laid up in the treasury of God: and we ought to be patient, being certified of the scripture, that they which die in the faith are at rest, and ought no more to search that secret, than to search the hour of the resurrection, which God hath only put in his own power” (Source: 1 John 2:28 Google Books)

Conclusion: Yet another SDA lie refuted. Will their lies ever cease? When will they wake up from their current 'spiritual sleep?'

 

[Yeshua1]

As promised......….

Tyndale did not teach soul sleep

The following quotation is from Tyndale’s Exposition of the First Epistle of Saint John:

“Another thing is this: all the scripture maketh of the resurrection and coming again of Christ, and that all men, both they that go before, and they that come after, shall then receive their rewards together; and we are commanded to look every hour for that day. And what is done with the souls, from the departing of their bodies unto that day, doth the scripture make no mention; save only that they rest in the Lord, and in their faith. Wherefore he that determineth aught of the state of them that be departed, doth but teach the presumptuous of his own brain; neither can his doctrine be any article of our faith. What God doth with them is a secret laid up in the treasury of God: and we ought to be patient, being certified of the scripture, that they which die in the faith are at rest, and ought no more to search that secret, than to search the hour of the resurrection, which God hath only put in his own power” (Source: 1 John 2:28 Google Books)
In order to be accepted as a legit Christian group MUST get rid of EW influence and authority first!
Conclusion: Yet another SDA lie refuted. Will their lies ever cease? When will they wake up from their current 'spiritual sleep?'

 

[Protestant]

Yes, Jesus is Michael.

Jude refutes your assertion. I believe Jude.

"Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."

Jesus IS the Lord. Jesus is also called the Angel of the Lord (Exodus 3:2). Jesus is the I AM, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Exodus 3:6 & 3:14).

Michael is differentiated from the Lord. Thus, he cannot be the Lord Jesus.

However, in Zechariah there is no differentiation made:

"And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?"

Here we have one 'Lord' as two distinct persons: i.e. the Father and Son. 'The Lord our God is one Lord.'

 

[Alofa Atu]

ATTN; Six hour warning

This thread shall be closed no earlier than 6 pm EDT / 3 PM PST

Well I was hoping to finish out the video here, but looks like I ran outta time.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Lord Jesus knows those who are His own, and he will raise up ALL saved in Him, NONE would be lost! ...

True. Jesus does know who are His own. Seventh-day Adventists do not disagree with the scripture. He will raise up ALL saved in Him, and NONE of them will be lost. I do not know why you think Seventh-day Adventists teach otherwise, as we do not and never have. Only those associated with the son of perdition will be lost.