OEC vs. YEC Debate

The last day of John 6 is the last day of a period of time CLEARLY spoken about within the OT. (See Dan.12, noting the fact that the Lord "certainly" KNEW Daniel's prophecy! See Matt.24 as verification)

The Lord's teaching was not only a repetition of Solomon's, who speaks that there will be a judgment for ALL (Ecc.12), but also of David's. (Psalm 1) Note the UNGODLY do "not" stand with the righteous in that text. The RESURRECTION is when people STAND. (Dan.12)

The separation of the RIGHTEOUS from the WICKED and UNGODLY is clearly noted by John as being 1000 years APART. (Rev.20)

Some people CAN'T search the scriptures and find the truth.

Did the Lord Jesus mention a 1000 years in his earthly teaching. No, he didn't. He allowed MOSES (Psalm 90) in the past, PETER (2 Peter 3) in the present, and JOHN (Rev.20) IN HIS PROPHECY for the future, to teach the FACT of the 1000 year of saints ON EARTH with Christ. The Lord, in his earthly ministry, didn't mention the body of Christ, the gathering of that body, or the gospel of the grace of God either, BUT ALL WERE SUBSEQUENTLY REVEALED "after he left" this earth by Paul.

Good day.

 

Exo 20:11

(ALT)

(ASV) for in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore Jehovah blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

(CEV) In six days I made the sky, the earth, the oceans, and everything in them, but on the seventh day I rested. That's why I made the Sabbath a special day that belongs to me.

(Darby) For in six days Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore Jehovah blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


(DRB) For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them, and rested on the seventh day: therefore the Lord blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it.

(EMTV)

(ESV) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

(GB) For in sixe dayes the Lord made the heauen and the earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seuenth day: therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.

(GNT)

(HCSB) For the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and everything in them in six days; then He rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and declared it holy.

(KJV+) For3588 in six8337 days3117 the LORD3068 made6213 (853) heaven8064 and earth,776 (853) the sea,3220 and all3605 that834 in them is, and rested5117 the seventh7637 day:3117 wherefore5921, 3651 the LORD3068 blessed1288 the (853) sabbath7676 day,3117 and hallowed6942 it.

(KJV-1611) For in sixe dayes the Lord made heauen and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seuenth day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and halowed it.

(KJVA) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

(LITV) For in six days Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all which is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; on account of this Jehovah blessed the sabbath day and sanctified it.

(MKJV) For in six days Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore Jehovah blessed the Sabbath day, and sanctified it.

(UPDV) for in six days Yahweh made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: therefore Yahweh blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.

 

Phillip,

Your refusal to understand the meaning of the Hebrew text makes discussion impossible and is why I won't debate these issues.

The Hebrew text does not have the preposition "in" in the text. The text actually reads "For six days ..."

I would like you to tell me if you accept this understanding of the Hebrew text or not.

A simple yes or no response.

Yes, you understand what the Hebrew text actually says and you agree with it.

No, you understand what the Hebrew text actually says and you disagree with it.

or

No, I don't understand what the Hebrew text actually says and I'm sticking with the KJV or other modern translations.

 

There is no conflict between Ex. 20:11 and Genesis 1:3ff.

God made the sky, land, and sea and all that is in them, and then rested on the seventh day.

Yabba is humbly correct in his understanding and use of the Hebrew text.

Genesis 1:1-2 may be part of verses 3-5 (Day One).

But it also may be a statement of the creation of the universe out of nothing (Sun, moon, stars, galaxies, solar systems, planets) and the condition of the earth's foundation (a phrase used repeatedly throughout both testaments).

Then God "did" the earth's biosphere in seven literal 24 hour days.

Yabba has pointed out the difference in the verbs used for create and made.

The Hebrew text of Ex. 20:11 has been pointed out.

This is the debate. Where is Jason?

 

You're back! We cross posted.

There is a big difference between "For six days" and "In six days."

"For six days" references the sky, land and sea and all that is in them.

The use of "In six days" confuses what God actually did. It can wrongfully be inferred that God created the universe in six days, when the text doesn't say that. The text says that God created the sky, land, sea and all that is in them in six days.

Removing the prespostion that is not in the Hebrew text to begin with, clears up the confusion. You don't like "For"? Fine.

Six days God did the sky, land, and sea and all that is in them. There you go. It does not have to refer to Genesis 1:1-2, the creation of the universe and earth's foundation.

You folks who claim that I am not literal are mistaken. You are also arguing against the very words God used to describe the sky, land, and sea that He made. God called the heavens, sky; the earth, land; and the sea, sea. And then he filled them!

 

Ex. 20:11 begins with the Hebrew word chi.

TWOT
particle preposition
kî) as though, as, because that, but, certainly, except, for, surely, since, that, then, when, etc. (ASV and RSV similar.)

In the above meanings the word "for" is included.

For six days God made ...

 

Jason,

Before we go any farther, will you now admit that Ex. 20:11 does not include the preposition "in" but does include the preposition "for"?

 

To this offensive statement, I can only recommend that you read I Corinthians 1.

The truth of God whether the life, death, burial, and resurrection of Christ or God's divine act of creation was not designed to make sense to unbelieving men. It was designed to give glory to God and to save those who simply believe the "foolishness of God".

You have closed you mind. I have no idea why. It has reached the extent that you show contempt for those of us who differ with you and persist in questioning our character and/or intelligence.

Is this how you want to characterize believers whose only "sin" is to actually believe what Genesis says? People who believe in a God big enough to create all that is by a word?

If you are determined to think God is limited by naturalism then no one here can stop you. But denial of this philosophical assumption and acceptance of the literal meaning of the words that God gave us does not make us "intellectually challenged baboons suffering from the late stages of dementia".

We aren't the ones doing that. We say that true science conforms to the scriptures. It is your side that says Genesis must be explained away as allegory since it disagrees with naturalistic explanations of modern science.

Actually you pretty much did.

No one will come to Christ unless God draws them. For a skeptic, the creation account might be the excuse but it is their own sinfulness that will keep them in rebellion. If someone puts preconditions on what they are willing to accept then they aren't approaching God in genuine repentance. Belief in Christ requires a willingness to submit everything... including one's preconceived ideas about science, philosophy, morality,...

They have since the time of Paul- again see I Corinthians 1. BTW, the elite/intelligent/scientific of that day probably would have scoffed at the Genesis account also.

Actually, like my prayer concerning Bible versions, I have been praying that God would show whoever is wrong the truth and that I would have the humility to accept it no matter what it is.

 

Jason,

Since you have all but begged me to respond, I will.

How sad that you can't understand the clear meaning of words.

Even with the word "in" in the English translation of Ex. 20:11 the true meaning is not obscured. God did make the earth's biosphere of sky, land and sea in six literal days. I don't disagree with that at all. I'm stating it plainly.

Even with "in" in the English translation, the verse does not teach that God created the universe in six days! You are reading into the text what you wish to see.

The text clearly teaches that God did something in six days. What did he do? He made the sky, land, and sea and all that is in them.

Watching you refuse to accept the clear meaning of words in either the Hebrew or English will make it very difficult for you to find an opponent. I know why you won't discuss this further. It is obvious that if you continue, no one will come forward to debate you because you lack the skill, honesty, or integrity to handle the meanings of words correctly. Instead of seeking in humility to discover what the Bible says, you have an agenda to promote or prove.

I have pointed out that God himself in Genesis 1:3ff has defined the terms that give Ex. 20:11 meaning, but you refuse to accept those definitions.

And then you turn around and distort my position.

Yabba and I are saying the same thing. A literal interpretation of Genesis 1 allows for an undefined time for the age of the universe. The universe may be young, it may be old. Genesis one does not tell us conclusively the age of the universe!

Good luck finding someone who will debate with you now that you have exposed yourself.

 

How deeply sad.

Before you leave altogether, will you admit that the Hebrew word "chi" means "for" in Ex. 20:11.

Could we at least get resolution for that simple fact?

 

I just wanted to reiterate something I said earlier before going further.

 

Jason, thank you very much for answering for me. You are exactly correct. Yes, I do understand the Hebrew and it is obvious that Paul does not understand exactly what is "missing" in real ancient Hebrew test.

It certainly does not translate directly into English and there are a lot of words added to make complete English sentences; BUT in defense of this, the Hebrew is very strict in its meaning and therefore to try to reinterpret it and say all of the MV's and KJV that say "in six days" is quite a stretch on Paul's part.

By the way, not only am I working, but I am also moderating 3 other subjects, so I can only be in and out. Since I have agreed to do this for the board, its requirements must come first. Sorry.

 

First, there is no need for this debate to get ugly. I would hope that people would be open to the orginal Hebrew language but if not fine, this debate is a non-issue in English language Bibles....to me this debate is a non-issue to Christianity as long as the Sovereignty of God is recognized and that He can do what He wants to.

Second, 'chi' does mean "for" and "in" is not there, but honestly that means very little to me.

Third, what does mean something to me is the verb usage. Verb usage is very, very important in the Hebrew language. If we agree of Mosaic authorship for both Genesis and Exodus then why the different use of verbs for the same action?

Jason if you would like to debate me on this even knowing I am not firm on this stance by any means, PM me and we can look at this. I may be slow sometimes b/c of work but I will get back with you, and if nothing else I am sure that both of us will learn something.

 

Phillip,

You make the same mistake that Jason makes. Even in English, Ex. 20:11 does not teach that God created the universe in six days. It teaches that God made the sky, land, and sea and all that is in them in six days. See? I'm even using the preposition "in."

The only reason why "in" or "for" is relevant to the discussion is because folks like you interpret "in" to mean God created the universe "in" six days. You say, "See, it's right there in black and white print!"

You bring it up. We refute it and correct the faulty translation and understanding. And then you say, "It's irrelevant."

It isn't irrelevant because you continue to misapply "in" to the creation of the universe instead of what the text teaches.

 

Would someone please show me how or why you believe Ex. 20:11 means God created the universe in six days?